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Old 10-12-2010, 07:57 AM   #16
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I'm sorry, I know this may not be the place to do so, but I do not agree. I wish to show no disrespect, but you cannot show 1 real car that a newbe will be able to relate to 1/8th offroad.. nothing is scale except size.. its unrealistic to ask that we keep them real looking.. no one complains as tire sizes gets bigger, or with the huge wings hanging off of the back. The hobby is evolving, bodies are jus like everything else: mid-motored 2wd buggies, belt drive 4wd buggies, larger then scale wheel/tire sizes, brushless motors, lipo batteries.. as the need for preformance increased everything changes.. the newer cars you see on a car lot don't look like Model-Ts or even like they did 10 yrs ago, the newer buggies now won't look like they did 10 yrs ago either.. I don't think a newbe will be turned off of the hobby because of the body, as nothing else looks real anyways.. if so, maybe they need to do something different. ..

Oh and ROAR cannot control the body debate, with only 1 large race a year they don't have much authority. I don't think any track will refuse a racer because of the body he's running either. They need to understand how limited some of their controls are. They setup a guideline for racers across the country but they do not control the hobby, market, tracks, or the consumers. That's where the miscommunication comes from. Oh and they don't seem to like Proline..losi added the cab forward body and larger wheels and roar said ok, proline does the same and roar comes down... hmm

Sorry for the long post
This I see as short sighted. Correct; ROAR does not control the market nor do they have a say in what the manufacturers build. You may run a cab forward body at your local event but not one at a ROAR sanctioned event.

My personal feeling is that 1/8 Off Road has spun out of control with the way it has presented itself in the last few years. Small case in point is that our UPS driver walked into the shop and saw a buggy siting on the bench with no tires on it but with a cab forward body and wing. He didn't know what it was as his first guess was that it was a boat of some sort or maybe a jet fighter. When I told him it was an off road buggy sans tires he laughed......... then pointed at one of our short course trucks and said "Now that's an off road car."

ROAR isn't trying to control what you buy. ROAR is about keeping the industry alive. Manufacturers want to be innovative and I love that about racing. The big picture though is to continue to keep things in perspective with new comers to our hobby. Do you think a kid or young adult will pick a T4 or a T-Maxx? Based on realism alone the T-Maxx will get sold 20-1.

Per a recent post on S-Grid I will borrow two words: Slot Cars
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:45 PM   #17
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Do you think a kid or young adult will pick a T4 or a T-Maxx?
For what intended purpose? Lame argument at best. The UPS guy? Yeah, the future of the sport rests on bodies.
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by t8rtot View Post
I'm sorry, I know this may not be the place to do so, but I do not agree. I wish to show no disrespect, but you cannot show 1 real car that a newbe will be able to relate to 1/8th offroad.. nothing is scale except size.. its unrealistic to ask that we keep them real looking.. no one complains as tire sizes gets bigger, or with the huge wings hanging off of the back. The hobby is evolving, bodies are jus like everything else: mid-motored 2wd buggies, belt drive 4wd buggies, larger then scale wheel/tire sizes, brushless motors, lipo batteries.. as the need for preformance increased everything changes.. the newer cars you see on a car lot don't look like Model-Ts or even like they did 10 yrs ago, the newer buggies now won't look like they did 10 yrs ago either.. I don't think a newbe will be turned off of the hobby because of the body, as nothing else looks real anyways.. if so, maybe they need to do something different. ..

Oh and ROAR cannot control the body debate, with only 1 large race a year they don't have much authority. I don't think any track will refuse a racer because of the body he's running either. They need to understand how limited some of their controls are. They setup a guideline for racers across the country but they do not control the hobby, market, tracks, or the consumers. That's where the miscommunication comes from. Oh and they don't seem to like Proline..losi added the cab forward body and larger wheels and roar said ok, proline does the same and roar comes down... hmm

Sorry for the long post
We can agree to disagree I guess. The manufacturers can make whatever they want and sell to the general public ala radio shack. They have bouncing cars, cars that run when they are upside down, etc. but ROAR and IFMAR won't be embracing them anytime soon for racing purposes.

ROAR is a block of IFMAR, and IFMAR heeds to ROAR advice and vice versa. I would say our US block (ROAR) has due influence?

...and just for the record, there are plenty of specifications covering wheels and wings. Not sure what rule book you've been looking at.
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:37 PM   #19
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Agree to disagree oh and yes there are rules reguarding wheels and wings.. but you won't see those on a 1:1 scale car or buggy. And wheels aren't scale just like the bodies, and the reason I brought that up is, when losi came out with the larger sized wheels, roar allowed it, when they made a cab forward body, roar allowed it.. when the other guys jumped aboard.. roar came down.. ala prolines larger wheel, and all the cab forward bodies. And what's even crazier is that the GS CLX came out way way before everything else and it was approved then, but now its not allowed.. roar favors novak and losi and a few others (it seems from the outside) I think a little more transparency should be mandatory..

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We can agree to disagree I guess. The manufacturers can make whatever they want and sell to the general public ala radio shack. They have bouncing cars, cars that run when they are upside down, etc. but ROAR and IFMAR won't be embracing them anytime soon for racing purposes.

ROAR is a block of IFMAR, and IFMAR heeds to ROAR advice and vice versa. I would say our US block (ROAR) has due influence?

...and just for the record, there are plenty of specifications covering wheels and wings. Not sure what rule book you've been looking at.
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:57 PM   #20
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This I see as short sighted. Correct; ROAR does not control the market nor do they have a say in what the manufacturers build. You may run a cab forward body at your local event but not one at a ROAR sanctioned event.

My personal feeling is that 1/8 Off Road has spun out of control with the way it has presented itself in the last few years. Small case in point is that our UPS driver walked into the shop and saw a buggy siting on the bench with no tires on it but with a cab forward body and wing. He didn't know what it was as his first guess was that it was a boat of some sort or maybe a jet fighter. When I told him it was an off road buggy sans tires he laughed......... then pointed at one of our short course trucks and said "Now that's an off road car."

ROAR isn't trying to control what you buy. ROAR is about keeping the industry alive. Manufacturers want to be innovative and I love that about racing. The big picture though is to continue to keep things in perspective with new comers to our hobby. Do you think a kid or young adult will pick a T4 or a T-Maxx? Based on realism alone the T-Maxx will get sold 20-1.

Per a recent post on S-Grid I will borrow two words: Slot Cars
Roar's job should be to promote FAIR PLAY in racing but the reason why they have lost so much respect from the industry is that they have made so many unfair decisions. If you are going to outlaw cab forward bodies, fine, but you better outlaw all of them otherwise you are going to lose respect... which is obviously what happened.

Our job as manufacturer's is to make things that the people want, not what Roar wants. All of the things that Roar has had a problem with have been wildly successful products for us, which is what really keeps the industry alive [Not Roar]. Even if we try to follow their rules, they could decide to change them in an instant and leave us in the cold... Case in point: I went to the electric off-road nationals this year and they had some absurd body height rule for SC trucks where only the stock ae body fit. If they would have stuck with the rule then over 90% of the racers would have been DQ'd, so they changed the rule...twice. If we would have spent the time to make some ugly body to meet the rules and then they changed the rules, we would have went ballistic! So, there is no reward for us following their nonsensical rules because we could get screwed either way.

If Roar wants to be relevant again, they need to make rules that make sense to the racers (i.e. consumers who vote with their wallets) and make rules that promote fair competition. I want Roar to be relevant because it could really help grow the hobby by having National races that were more than just glorified club races and truly showcased the best aspects of our hobby. In the meantime, we are going to strive to make products that our customers want and care less and less about the out of touch Roar rules.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:03 PM   #21
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Well, I can look through the ROAR rule book, and I don't really see too many things that are "out of touch."

When this "rocket ship" body thing started, the manufacturers were doing it knowing full well that ROAR or IFMAR might put their foot down. The rule book HAS ALWAYS SAID the bodies will resemble the bodies of full scale vehicles for the class being raced. I'm sorry, but real off road buggies have a net over the window, and none of them look like off shore racing boats...
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:04 PM   #22
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anyhow... STEVE POND FOR PRESIDENT... he's the only one who can straighten this out
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:33 PM   #23
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Has IFMAR made a ruling on the bodies yet?

And I can see where everyone is coming from, I am not close minded, and I hope we can get somethings worked out for us that actually keep the industry moving forward.

And Matt I can see what your tlkn about.. I think the onroad guys had lipo battery warmers that enhanced the preformance of the batts that they would use right before the mains.. roar came down on that.. normally I can see why, but a few years ago with brushed motors people would freeze them before the main and roar had no issue.. what's the difference??? Well idk..

I'm looking forward to this debate.. I'm sure the canidates are watching this at least Steve.. maybe we'll see some improvement..

Also I think it would help if they gave an explanation on some of the rules/changes.. since it is a democracy.. I hope they don't think they are above those they govern
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:06 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt @ Pro-Line View Post
Roar's job should be to promote FAIR PLAY in racing but the reason why they have lost so much respect from the industry is that they have made so many unfair decisions. If you are going to outlaw cab forward bodies, fine, but you better outlaw all of them otherwise you are going to lose respect... which is obviously what happened.

Our job as manufacturer's is to make things that the people want, not what Roar wants. All of the things that Roar has had a problem with have been wildly successful products for us, which is what really keeps the industry alive [Not Roar]. Even if we try to follow their rules, they could decide to change them in an instant and leave us in the cold... Case in point: I went to the electric off-road nationals this year and they had some absurd body height rule for SC trucks where only the stock ae body fit. If they would have stuck with the rule then over 90% of the racers would have been DQ'd, so they changed the rule...twice. If we would have spent the time to make some ugly body to meet the rules and then they changed the rules, we would have went ballistic! So, there is no reward for us following their nonsensical rules because we could get screwed either way.

If Roar wants to be relevant again, they need to make rules that make sense to the racers (i.e. consumers who vote with their wallets) and make rules that promote fair competition. I want Roar to be relevant because it could really help grow the hobby by having National races that were more than just glorified club races and truly showcased the best aspects of our hobby. In the meantime, we are going to strive to make products that our customers want and care less and less about the out of touch Roar rules.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:51 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Matt @ Pro-Line View Post
Roar's job should be to promote FAIR PLAY in racing but the reason why they have lost so much respect from the industry is that they have made so many unfair decisions. If you are going to outlaw cab forward bodies, fine, but you better outlaw all of them otherwise you are going to lose respect... which is obviously what happened. I agree. To not have any guidelines set forth to deem one illegal or the other is not right.

Our job as manufacturer's is to make things that the people want, not what Roar wants. All of the things that Roar has had a problem with have been wildly successful products for us, which is what really keeps the industry alive [Not Roar]. Even if we try to follow their rules, they could decide to change them in an instant and leave us in the cold... Case in point: I went to the electric off-road nationals this year and they had some absurd body height rule for SC trucks where only the stock ae body fit. If they would have stuck with the rule then over 90% of the racers would have been DQ'd, so they changed the rule...twice. If we would have spent the time to make some ugly body to meet the rules and then they changed the rules, we would have went ballistic! So, there is no reward for us following their nonsensical rules because we could get screwed either way.

If Roar wants to be relevant again, they need to make rules that make sense to the racers (i.e. consumers who vote with their wallets) and make rules that promote fair competition. I want Roar to be relevant because it could really help grow the hobby by having National races that were more than just glorified club races and truly showcased the best aspects of our hobby. In the meantime, we are going to strive to make products that our customers want and care less and less about the out of touch Roar rules.


In 1/8th off road in particular, ROAR has had no set guidelines as to body height, width etc etc. So by not setting this standard of measurement no manufacturer has anything to follow, even the OEM and now that rules are being implemented "it's not fair". As an IFMAR partner in this class I feel that ROAR should follow IFMAR for body rules in 1/8 On and Off road classes. Period. We will see what develops in the near future whether we see "cab forward" bodies at the Worlds. If not will you protest IFMAR and not abide by their rules also?

About the SCT rules; They have been out for well over a year to a year and a half. As a manufacturer you should know better. At least let your consumers know that "this body does not conform to ROAR rules" so they don't go to the Nationals with something that is illegal. ROAR officials changed the rules on the fly for the majority vote of the racers to allow them at the Nationals. Something that should be applauded by a manufacturer and not condescending, as again, these rules have been out for more than plenty of time. Which also brings me to another point the competitors not knowing what the rules were......... Is this ROAR's fault?


A vote for Steve Pond will get things set in motion to allow ROAR to gain back it's presidence in our industry as well as fair play amongst the manufacturers, ROAR affiliates and partners.

VOTE TODAY!
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:54 AM   #26
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And Matt I can see what your tlkn about.. I think the onroad guys had lipo battery warmers that enhanced the preformance of the batts that they would use right before the mains.. roar came down on that.. normally I can see why, but a few years ago with brushed motors people would freeze them before the main and roar had no issue.. what's the difference??? Well idk..

Because frozen motors don't burst into flames......
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Matt @ Pro-Line View Post
Roar's job should be to promote FAIR PLAY in racing but the reason why they have lost so much respect from the industry is that they have made so many unfair decisions. If you are going to outlaw cab forward bodies, fine, but you better outlaw all of them otherwise you are going to lose respect... which is obviously what happened.

Our job as manufacturer's is to make things that the people want, not what Roar wants. All of the things that Roar has had a problem with have been wildly successful products for us, which is what really keeps the industry alive [Not Roar]. Even if we try to follow their rules, they could decide to change them in an instant and leave us in the cold... Case in point: I went to the electric off-road nationals this year and they had some absurd body height rule for SC trucks where only the stock ae body fit. If they would have stuck with the rule then over 90% of the racers would have been DQ'd, so they changed the rule...twice. If we would have spent the time to make some ugly body to meet the rules and then they changed the rules, we would have went ballistic! So, there is no reward for us following their nonsensical rules because we could get screwed either way.

If Roar wants to be relevant again, they need to make rules that make sense to the racers (i.e. consumers who vote with their wallets) and make rules that promote fair competition. I want Roar to be relevant because it could really help grow the hobby by having National races that were more than just glorified club races and truly showcased the best aspects of our hobby. In the meantime, we are going to strive to make products that our customers want and care less and less about the out of touch Roar rules.
Well said! ROAR needs to get a clue. Some of these rules are absurd. Nothing about 1/8 scale racing resembles full scale racing(that's what we have SC for). That is just another absurd excuse that they're using to cover the fact that they just don't like how the new bodies look. It was a decision based on the personal preference of those in charge at ROAR... NOT a decision based on reason.

I think we can all agree that these bodies really aren't that big of a deal and that it is absurd that there be a ruling against them. They're not doing any harm and shouldn't be outlawed purely on the basis of looks. Hell if we're gonna do that, we might as well outlaw flamed paint jobs and require realistic looking racing graphics. This isn't scale boating. ROAR is completely out of touch with what the racing community wants.

I'm just happy to see that Proline is in touch with the racing community. Thumbs up for that! Keep up the good work!
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:55 PM   #28
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TO EVERYONE:

When I started this thread it was a thread desgned to be able to ask Steve questions or give support, or whatever that has to do with the elections for ROAR President... I understand that you want Steve to know your dissatisfactions, but please keep them constructive or I will ask to have the post or page removed... If we can't act like adults, then there is no use for any discussions... In other words, this is not a page for you to come to vent, Thanks...

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ROAR is a block of IFMAR, and IFMAR heeds to ROAR advice and vice versa. I would say our US block (ROAR) has due influence?
Just to clarify...

IFMAR = ROAR, EFRA, FEMCA, FAMAR... IFMAR basically is a combined effort of the federation of the 4 blocks. Basically the 4 blocks dictate the rules for IFMAR and never the other way around. So yes, ROAR has influence because it is 1/4 vote in the rule process of IFMAR.... But no IFMAR really is not its own entity.

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Old 10-13-2010, 12:59 PM   #29
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This talk is all the rage now because elections are up but give it a few months and no one will care until it comes time for a national in that respective class.

The fact is that of ALL of the "RACING" classes that we have, gas or electric, the ONLY one that resembles a real vehicle is the Short Course Truck.......... if you can sit here and tell me that a body is the seperating factory in what looks real and doesn't look real on a 1/8th Scale Truggy then you are either lying to yourself or completely out of touch with the real world. I have never seen a truck in "REAL" racing situations have 4 inch arms hanging out of each side of the body with tires that are probably 2 to 3 times the size of what real scale would be, and this goes for both gas and electric.

and the other side of the coin is, we need to start thinking economically, How many illegal bodies/tires are in the market?????? who is going to eat all that????? hobby shop owners if dumb decisions are made by roar to start banning things because of so called "realism". the manufacturers are big enough in this sport to turn on a dime and make new products quickly but hobby shops aren't near as capable as they are in terms of turning inventory into cash if you ban the stuff.

to end this long wind i have talked to steve on the phone once in the past and he was very helpful and extremely nice to talk to but I truly do not think we need someone "in the industry" as president. I think we need a true racer that loves this sport for what it really is......a fun hobby to take part in with family and friends.


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Old 10-13-2010, 01:03 PM   #30
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TO EVERYONE:

When I started this thread it was a thread desgned to be able to ask Steve questions or give support, or whatever that has to do with the elections for ROAR President... I understand that you want Steve to know your dissatisfactions, but please keep them constructive or I will ask to have the post or page removed... If we can't act like adults, then there is no use for any discussions... In other words, this is not a page for you to come to vent, Thanks...
Then Orange I believe your thread would be better served if you actually got steve in here to answer some of these questions so people can better make their decision on who to vote for......

If he can't answer these questions now, what is to make the ROAR members believe that he will listen to what they want later???


just sayin
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