Has the industry taken nitro buggies as far as it can take it?
01-10-2010, 08:12 PM
#76
I think we are pretty close to the pinnacle of 1/8th nitro buggies. There is still some more left in the 1/8th buggy, but not a whole lot. Unless there is a major revolution in the components we put into our buggies the designs will continue to evolve, but there won't be anymore designs that revolutionize off-road buggy design.
High end technologies would have already penetrated our racing if they were feasible. Cost is the biggest issue with these technologies and that is why a lot of them are illegal. Also, keeping things a bit simpler is another goal. Technology running out of control always comes back to destroy the racing it's used in. Just look at F1 or even electric touring car. In R/C we don't have corporate sponsors or spectator revenue to fund amazing technology on the track.
Things like suspension geometry can only go so far within the current rules. The first really major innovation we saw in 1/8th buggy suspension since the first Kyosho Burns was the Losi 8ight and even that car took it's steering design from an electric buggy released in 1999~ish (can't remember when the XX-4 came out). It also brought us big bore shocks and some other new things. Put it beside a old Kyosho MP5 though and a n00b with a brand new Revo will hardly be able to tell you the differences.
Servos, pipes, tires, and engines have all remained about the same size and weight for a good 10 years+ now. How many different ways can they be arranged?
High end technologies would have already penetrated our racing if they were feasible. Cost is the biggest issue with these technologies and that is why a lot of them are illegal. Also, keeping things a bit simpler is another goal. Technology running out of control always comes back to destroy the racing it's used in. Just look at F1 or even electric touring car. In R/C we don't have corporate sponsors or spectator revenue to fund amazing technology on the track.
Things like suspension geometry can only go so far within the current rules. The first really major innovation we saw in 1/8th buggy suspension since the first Kyosho Burns was the Losi 8ight and even that car took it's steering design from an electric buggy released in 1999~ish (can't remember when the XX-4 came out). It also brought us big bore shocks and some other new things. Put it beside a old Kyosho MP5 though and a n00b with a brand new Revo will hardly be able to tell you the differences.
Servos, pipes, tires, and engines have all remained about the same size and weight for a good 10 years+ now. How many different ways can they be arranged?
01-10-2010, 08:16 PM
#77
There really isn't much room for improvement in the actual fuel area, though lubrication is always changing. The rules specifically require ONLY methanol and nitromethane as the fuel components. That's ok, because they are about as good as it gets right now. Most of the illegal additives that might make more power are either unstable, carcinogenic, highly toxic, ultra expensive or a combination of all those.
01-10-2010, 08:18 PM
#78
01-10-2010, 08:24 PM
#79
http://www.osengines.com/history/osm640/osmg2020.jpg <-- here's the link that works.
01-10-2010, 08:32 PM
#80
01-10-2010, 08:41 PM
#81
Most of the southern tracks run at least 1/2hr mains. The b and lower are less to keep things moving.
bottom line: If your nitro class isn't running at least 30min mains then your track sucks.
Anyways, BOT, 1/8th is still stoneage, but the market rarely allows for cutting edge tech like:
- serperate adjustable rebound and compression circuits in the shocks. Or neodymium magnets for a shock piston, another repulsive magnet in the shock cap.
- temp sensor built into the block that gives a accurate voltage output for temp gauges.
-accurate immersion sensor in the exhaust for proper egt readings
- 4 stroke big bores that can rev and have enough torque to spin the big gear needed to have the topend of 2 strokes. Better fuel economy, possibly better traction, more electric like power. maybe .45-.54 displacement?
- imagine an engine as reliable and easy idle simplicity as a 4 stroke airplane, maybe if nitro wasn't such a pain it wouldn't be dieing off.
-hypoid cut gears for less noise and friction
-oneway active diffs
-less bumpsteer and play in the front end
- lower brands like AE, Losi, and Hotbodies useing quality plastic and metal like X-ray and Mugen.
-AKA barcodes
-AKA wet indoor clay slicks
-better wings
-more aero work like an F1 car. Winglets on body etc.
E conversions could use some help as well:
-bodies and side pods desighned to use velcro to hold body on for quick removal, or hinged bodies
-quick change battery boxes with spring loaded sliding connector bars on the battery box allowing complete battery box changes and allow softpacks pemanently mounted in each box. for pit stops.
-hypoid pinion and spur gears for less noise
- strong thick plastic spur gear for less noise
- grease shields that will allow pinion to be greased and not fling all over the body, for less noise.
-esc's with less fire.
bottom line: If your nitro class isn't running at least 30min mains then your track sucks.
Anyways, BOT, 1/8th is still stoneage, but the market rarely allows for cutting edge tech like:
- serperate adjustable rebound and compression circuits in the shocks. Or neodymium magnets for a shock piston, another repulsive magnet in the shock cap.
- temp sensor built into the block that gives a accurate voltage output for temp gauges.
-accurate immersion sensor in the exhaust for proper egt readings
- 4 stroke big bores that can rev and have enough torque to spin the big gear needed to have the topend of 2 strokes. Better fuel economy, possibly better traction, more electric like power. maybe .45-.54 displacement?
- imagine an engine as reliable and easy idle simplicity as a 4 stroke airplane, maybe if nitro wasn't such a pain it wouldn't be dieing off.
-hypoid cut gears for less noise and friction
-oneway active diffs
-less bumpsteer and play in the front end
- lower brands like AE, Losi, and Hotbodies useing quality plastic and metal like X-ray and Mugen.
-AKA barcodes
-AKA wet indoor clay slicks
-better wings
-more aero work like an F1 car. Winglets on body etc.
E conversions could use some help as well:
-bodies and side pods desighned to use velcro to hold body on for quick removal, or hinged bodies
-quick change battery boxes with spring loaded sliding connector bars on the battery box allowing complete battery box changes and allow softpacks pemanently mounted in each box. for pit stops.
-hypoid pinion and spur gears for less noise
- strong thick plastic spur gear for less noise
- grease shields that will allow pinion to be greased and not fling all over the body, for less noise.
-esc's with less fire.
I guess i was a little naive with my thread. I guess i am just really happy with what i have not seeing areas for improvement.
But then again i have only been doing this for a little over a year, and before that i had a rc10 graphite 15 years ago
I thought that was the most advanced, best car EVER!But we all know that human ingenuity is a on going quest, another sequel in our own evolution. We not only evolve but so does everything we do and create as well as everything around us.
The human mind is truly the most complex piece of engineering known in the universe. And we have only scratched the surface.
So i can only imagine what is in store for our four wheeled toys
01-10-2010, 08:44 PM
#82
01-10-2010, 08:49 PM
#83
01-10-2010, 09:06 PM
#84
Most of the southern tracks run at least 1/2hr mains. The b and lower are less to keep things moving.
bottom line: If your nitro class isn't running at least 30min mains then your track sucks.
Anyways, BOT, 1/8th is still stoneage, but the market rarely allows for cutting edge tech like:
- serperate adjustable rebound and compression circuits in the shocks. Or neodymium magnets for a shock piston, another repulsive magnet in the shock cap.
- temp sensor built into the block that gives a accurate voltage output for temp gauges.
-accurate immersion sensor in the exhaust for proper egt readings
- 4 stroke big bores that can rev and have enough torque to spin the big gear needed to have the topend of 2 strokes. Better fuel economy, possibly better traction, more electric like power. maybe .45-.54 displacement?
- imagine an engine as reliable and easy idle simplicity as a 4 stroke airplane, maybe if nitro wasn't such a pain it wouldn't be dieing off.
-hypoid cut gears for less noise and friction
-oneway active diffs
-less bumpsteer and play in the front end
- lower brands like AE, Losi, and Hotbodies useing quality plastic and metal like X-ray and Mugen.
-AKA barcodes
-AKA wet indoor clay slicks
-better wings
-more aero work like an F1 car. Winglets on body etc.
E conversions could use some help as well:
-bodies and side pods desighned to use velcro to hold body on for quick removal, or hinged bodies
-quick change battery boxes with spring loaded sliding connector bars on the battery box allowing complete battery box changes and allow softpacks pemanently mounted in each box. for pit stops.
-hypoid pinion and spur gears for less noise
- strong thick plastic spur gear for less noise
- grease shields that will allow pinion to be greased and not fling all over the body, for less noise.
-esc's with less fire.
bottom line: If your nitro class isn't running at least 30min mains then your track sucks.
Anyways, BOT, 1/8th is still stoneage, but the market rarely allows for cutting edge tech like:
- serperate adjustable rebound and compression circuits in the shocks. Or neodymium magnets for a shock piston, another repulsive magnet in the shock cap.
- temp sensor built into the block that gives a accurate voltage output for temp gauges.
-accurate immersion sensor in the exhaust for proper egt readings
- 4 stroke big bores that can rev and have enough torque to spin the big gear needed to have the topend of 2 strokes. Better fuel economy, possibly better traction, more electric like power. maybe .45-.54 displacement?
- imagine an engine as reliable and easy idle simplicity as a 4 stroke airplane, maybe if nitro wasn't such a pain it wouldn't be dieing off.
-hypoid cut gears for less noise and friction
-oneway active diffs
-less bumpsteer and play in the front end
- lower brands like AE, Losi, and Hotbodies useing quality plastic and metal like X-ray and Mugen.
-AKA barcodes
-AKA wet indoor clay slicks
-better wings
-more aero work like an F1 car. Winglets on body etc.
E conversions could use some help as well:
-bodies and side pods desighned to use velcro to hold body on for quick removal, or hinged bodies
-quick change battery boxes with spring loaded sliding connector bars on the battery box allowing complete battery box changes and allow softpacks pemanently mounted in each box. for pit stops.
-hypoid pinion and spur gears for less noise
- strong thick plastic spur gear for less noise
- grease shields that will allow pinion to be greased and not fling all over the body, for less noise.
-esc's with less fire.
yea i like them, ideas with the (nitro, end i dont know if, that will ever happen) though . (i dont think nitro is really that, much (pain) inless you have a leak lol) thats (why you seal the, engine when its new.)
01-10-2010, 09:09 PM
#85
01-11-2010, 01:41 AM
#86
Tech Master
There is still alot of room for improvement! Specially in:
1. The geometry of the cars (nearly all are the same now, and have been for 15 years? Losi style isnt new, its XX-4). With the right changes made, cars will create more traction and corner speed, and laptimes will decrease, eventhough driver input remained the same.
2. Shocks. Alot of stuff can be done here. Similar effects to what they have in the real world, but more simple concepts used.
3. Diffs, can be alot lighter and smaller than they are now.
Reason for no one going to the next level? Money. It is expensive and risky to do something completely new, and it takes alot of time and effort. For example to develop something for the shocks, in order for it to not only be something for your top team drivers, it needs to be easy to use, and it needs to work for everyone everywhere without an engineering degree. To make something like that takes alot of testing in all conditions by all kinds of different drivers!
The main risks involved are:
1. whatever the new idea is won't work
2. Whatever the new idea DOES work, but the problem is someone already copied it and is selling it for less, because they dont have to pay back a huge R%D expense bill.
But I think that the market saturation is a great thing, because I believe the companies that will survive and be the future greats, are the ones that will push the envelope, and innovate, regardless of what others are doing.
At least I hope so. But in no way are 1:8 buggies at the peak of their development. I have a number of ideas to radically change the cars, but its just not possible to get them done. Losi could do it again with their next car, they have enough customers and they have the brndname, so the risk is alot smaller.
1. The geometry of the cars (nearly all are the same now, and have been for 15 years? Losi style isnt new, its XX-4). With the right changes made, cars will create more traction and corner speed, and laptimes will decrease, eventhough driver input remained the same.
2. Shocks. Alot of stuff can be done here. Similar effects to what they have in the real world, but more simple concepts used.
3. Diffs, can be alot lighter and smaller than they are now.
Reason for no one going to the next level? Money. It is expensive and risky to do something completely new, and it takes alot of time and effort. For example to develop something for the shocks, in order for it to not only be something for your top team drivers, it needs to be easy to use, and it needs to work for everyone everywhere without an engineering degree. To make something like that takes alot of testing in all conditions by all kinds of different drivers!
The main risks involved are:
1. whatever the new idea is won't work
2. Whatever the new idea DOES work, but the problem is someone already copied it and is selling it for less, because they dont have to pay back a huge R%D expense bill.
But I think that the market saturation is a great thing, because I believe the companies that will survive and be the future greats, are the ones that will push the envelope, and innovate, regardless of what others are doing.
At least I hope so. But in no way are 1:8 buggies at the peak of their development. I have a number of ideas to radically change the cars, but its just not possible to get them done. Losi could do it again with their next car, they have enough customers and they have the brndname, so the risk is alot smaller.
01-11-2010, 07:18 AM
#87
Personally, I'd like to see more efficient engines with better run times and there's a lot of improvments that can be made in suspension. I would like to see something similar to MX suspension with independantly adjustable compression and rebound. Of course that will help some people and hurt others because it will be more difficult to tune the suspension.
01-11-2010, 07:33 AM
#88
I don't think we will see substantial improvements due to rule limitations which is the main reason mfg's won't come out with anything really innovative. If the rules won't allow it to run, what is the point?
Braking could be improved with more hitech solution, suspension, more fuel efficient engines, more stable and efficient batteries, etc.
However, the reality is that these cars are already pretty advanced, but yet so simple. Any improvements will be incremental.
Braking could be improved with more hitech solution, suspension, more fuel efficient engines, more stable and efficient batteries, etc.
However, the reality is that these cars are already pretty advanced, but yet so simple. Any improvements will be incremental.
01-11-2010, 08:01 AM
#89
This is exactly the problem. If they would develope a class specifially for this, we would a lot of new technology in our cars. Just like the old Works MX bikes before the AMA banned them. If they would run a works class at all mojor events, you would see all sorts of crazy contraptions out there and it would be a blast. Think of it loke MotoGP where they will not allow them to run a factory production chassis, they have a CC limit on the engine, and they run spec tires. A lot of the racing technology developed in MotoGP is then rolled down to the production models. Heck, the Yamaha R1 has actively controlled velocity stacks that change as needed. That was unheard of just 5 years ago.
Personally, I'd like to see more efficient engines with better run times and there's a lot of improvments that can be made in suspension. I would like to see something similar to MX suspension with independantly adjustable compression and rebound. Of course that will help some people and hurt others because it will be more difficult to tune the suspension.
Personally, I'd like to see more efficient engines with better run times and there's a lot of improvments that can be made in suspension. I would like to see something similar to MX suspension with independantly adjustable compression and rebound. Of course that will help some people and hurt others because it will be more difficult to tune the suspension.
The problem is that the average racer needs to be able to build the things. In the world of real race cars, most average racers have to buy super expensive shocks and if they don't work right or need servicing, they have to send them off for repair and retuning. Do we really want that for RC? Do you want to have to buy a several thousand dollar custom shock dyno just to be competitive?
Anything any manufacturer comes up with needs to be kept simple enough that a 12 year old with no experience can follow the directions and assemble it in a manner that will work more or less properly. This is really the biggest speed bump for technology after rules.
01-11-2010, 12:29 PM
#90
Tech Master
Exactly, the rules are only holding the electronic side of things away, like traction control, gyros and any kind of systems like that. Anything mechanical to do with suspension, diffs or geometry is legal, if it fits in the max and min measurements.
The main reasons advancements arent happening I highlighted in my previous post.
One more reason is ofcourse, most companies dont bother, because why should they, its not needed to sell cars, but maybe in the future it will be, who knows. Also many companies dont have the right people that are needed to push the envelope. There isnt enough money in the RC Racing industry. Even traxxass is coming up with all kinds of innovative stuff, because the market they are in is already alot bigger than the racing side of RC.
The main reasons advancements arent happening I highlighted in my previous post.
One more reason is ofcourse, most companies dont bother, because why should they, its not needed to sell cars, but maybe in the future it will be, who knows. Also many companies dont have the right people that are needed to push the envelope. There isnt enough money in the RC Racing industry. Even traxxass is coming up with all kinds of innovative stuff, because the market they are in is already alot bigger than the racing side of RC.