BAD AUSTRALIAN AMAIN FUEL KILLS ENGINES
11-09-2009, 01:45 AM
#92
GOODAY every one.
well said pete.
i was going to post some damming stuff about dave (rcskyline), but i will hold it off to give him a chance to read, reflect & correct on what blackie has posted. maybe he will ask the mods to delete the thread all together & send some appolagies to the people, his club & most of all to mark.
the ball is in your court, dave.......
as for what you publically said about me on the other thread, which my son read & told me about, as i was having a shower, we will still have to settle later. you should be feeling really lucky rite now because 13 people last tuesday night pm me your address.
over to you now dave.........
well said pete.
i was going to post some damming stuff about dave (rcskyline), but i will hold it off to give him a chance to read, reflect & correct on what blackie has posted. maybe he will ask the mods to delete the thread all together & send some appolagies to the people, his club & most of all to mark.
the ball is in your court, dave.......
as for what you publically said about me on the other thread, which my son read & told me about, as i was having a shower, we will still have to settle later. you should be feeling really lucky rite now because 13 people last tuesday night pm me your address.
over to you now dave.........
11-09-2009, 02:33 AM
#93
At LRRCC basicly the only person using amain fuel is a mm sponsered driver that gets it for free off you from what he tells me along with engines, When my all but new go tech 5 port blew up that driver said to me "dont go showing anyone the engine will you".. You see Mark its the crap like that that i am sick of... you can only cover up so much and be un truthfull to a certian degree and the more it happens the more people like myself will jack up
11-09-2009, 03:09 AM
#94
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but after reading your last post Dave I feel I need to put my 2 cents in.
I have nothing against you, & even though I disagree with what you have been saying, I am still more than happy to talk to you at the track & shake hands. As you’ve seen in other posts, I do get my back up when comments are made generalising everyone that uses a particular product as – sheep, mindless morons, idiots, brainwashed etc etc. I’m not saying you have said all those things, but a few.
For the record I consider Mark a friend. We don’t hang out at the pub (even though I’m sure spending a night at the pub with Mark would be full of fun & would finish with me in pain from laughing so much) & I’ve never spent time with him outside his work. But Mark gives the best service I’ve personally experienced in this hobby & would be close to the best in general.
I could tell you story after story of Mark going way above & beyond for his customers. I personally have heard first hand from at least a dozen people of the great service they received from Mark & countless stories from people that know someone & forum posts etc. Mark replaced your motor no questions asked, I had a motor that came with my first RTR car, the cage in the rear bearing kept coming out, I replaced it several times, ended up sending it to the Australian distributors. They had it for 6 months! Eventually sent it back to me with another new bearing, the motor in pieces & no explanation. When the motor went off to be fixed I bought a Go-Tech 25 & never regretted it.
I also need to correct some things. Quote “At LRRCC basicly the only person using amain fuel is a mm sponsered driver”. That is quite incorrect, I’m aware of around a dozen people that use it, including myself & all are regular racers. Plus there are many occasional racers that use it also at our club. The MM driver was using Amain before he was sponsored, I believe, might have to confirm that.
I do think it was very poor form ousting the Factory driver like that just to score points. Just to clear that particular event up. He gave you his Go 7 port motor & was bending over backwards trying to help you out, he then realises you are going around bagging what happened & he said “You're not going around telling people what happened are you!!!!!!!??” as he was insulted that you could take with one hand & stab him in the back with the other.
Quote “OCM Australia for crying out loud had to stop using / recomending amain fuel in there range of redline engines as they were blowing up left right and centre and they could not figure out why... and guess what.. when they stopped using amain there was no more problems” This whole statement is incorrect. I was told it is totally incorrect from one of the 2 people in OCM that know. He wasn’t very happy about your above statement. Don’t get me wrong, he wasn’t angry, he’s not like that, just not happy.
IMO most motor problems come from incorrect tuning, use or/& maintenance. There are always exceptions, but in general that is the case.
A few reasons why things go wrong (this is just a couple, there are HEAPS more) –
Newbies, they destroy a couple of engines & then change either the brand of engine or fuel & everything is great, so it must be the brand or the fuel. But they seem to miss the fact that they have learnt from the mistakes they made & are no longer doing the same things that destroyed the motors in the first place & that is why everything is great, & because they are being even MORE careful with their new, VERY expensive engine.
An experienced racer decides to change fuel, but rather than try starting from a view of “lets be careful & learn what is the best, tune, plug, etc with this fuel. They want to do everything the way they use to & when something goes wrong, “it’s the fuels fault”.
I know of a guy (I believe he is one of your “fact” guys) who had bearing problems whilst using Amain, he screamed from the highest hill top & told anyone that would stand still long enough that Amain was to blame. He then went & changed fuel & guess what…., he had another bearing failure. But because he had mouthed off soooo much, he tried to keep it quiet so he didn’t lose face, rather than do the honourable thing & let people know he was wrong.
There are people that do everything they can to maintain their engines, believing everything they do is correct, but they are actually making mistakes. A simple example of this is After Run Oil. A couple of drops down the carbie, remove the plug & put a couple of drops in through the plug hole, turn it over a couple of times (without the plug in), take it a step further by removing the back plate & put a couple of drops into the rear bearing. All sounds great, but next time the motor is started they don’t flush the oil out with the glow plug removed first. They just throw the warmer on & start it up. This can deposit After Run Oil up into the coils of the plug, which burns & damages the coil. Next minute, the fuel is crap because it destroys plugs….. or worst still the coil breaks off & damages the motor….. the fuel is crap because it destroys engines……
I’ve seen first hand the lack of knowledge that MANY regular racers have about their engines & because they don’t know any better, it must be something else’s fault… motor, fuel, plug…
I’ve seen experienced racers not tighten the head screws properly which resulted in an air leak, followed by a half ruined engine from running it lean as a result. I’ve seen guys get Loctite in the front bearing when putting the fly wheel on, holes in fuel lines etc etc.
I’m sorry, but what you have been saying is not fact, it is all assumption from a few guys directly & then stories of others. “Fact” is when these motors & the fuel have been examined by a Metallurgist & Fuel Engineer/Analytical Chemist who then say “yes, this fuel is bad etc”.
As I’ve mentioned before, I use to run a Go 25 & used MM’s 444 fuel & apart from some dumb things I did like stripping head screws, never had a problem. I’m now running a MG66 using Amain C2 Blue dot. I ran the motor in using this fuel & am up to about 10 litres of running. Never had a flame out, never destroyed a plug. I replaced the plug at around 5 litres, before I raced Proline just to be safe & the plug was still perfect. Yesterday we raced a 4 hour enduro, which your team won, congratulations. I raced my car for around 1 ¼ hours before my steering servo gave up. The car ran flawlessly till that point, 13 minute tank times, tonnes of power, no tuning problems, flawless!! I even started getting use to my new Losi 8ight T 2.0. As you may have seen on another forum, one of the guys on another team who normally runs a different fuel in his Ninja, ran Amain C2 Blue Dot instead (As he couldn’t get his normal fuel). To say he was impressed with the performance increase, I think would be an understatement.
Dave, as I’ve said, I have nothing against you, apart from insulting me in a group sense, you have not attacked me personally. I just totally disagree with what you are saying & from my own investigation have been unable to find any proof to support what you are saying. I’ve heard opinions & stories, but nothing I would take as proof.
Cheers
Pete.
I have nothing against you, & even though I disagree with what you have been saying, I am still more than happy to talk to you at the track & shake hands. As you’ve seen in other posts, I do get my back up when comments are made generalising everyone that uses a particular product as – sheep, mindless morons, idiots, brainwashed etc etc. I’m not saying you have said all those things, but a few.
For the record I consider Mark a friend. We don’t hang out at the pub (even though I’m sure spending a night at the pub with Mark would be full of fun & would finish with me in pain from laughing so much) & I’ve never spent time with him outside his work. But Mark gives the best service I’ve personally experienced in this hobby & would be close to the best in general.
I could tell you story after story of Mark going way above & beyond for his customers. I personally have heard first hand from at least a dozen people of the great service they received from Mark & countless stories from people that know someone & forum posts etc. Mark replaced your motor no questions asked, I had a motor that came with my first RTR car, the cage in the rear bearing kept coming out, I replaced it several times, ended up sending it to the Australian distributors. They had it for 6 months! Eventually sent it back to me with another new bearing, the motor in pieces & no explanation. When the motor went off to be fixed I bought a Go-Tech 25 & never regretted it.
I also need to correct some things. Quote “At LRRCC basicly the only person using amain fuel is a mm sponsered driver”. That is quite incorrect, I’m aware of around a dozen people that use it, including myself & all are regular racers. Plus there are many occasional racers that use it also at our club. The MM driver was using Amain before he was sponsored, I believe, might have to confirm that.
I do think it was very poor form ousting the Factory driver like that just to score points. Just to clear that particular event up. He gave you his Go 7 port motor & was bending over backwards trying to help you out, he then realises you are going around bagging what happened & he said “You're not going around telling people what happened are you!!!!!!!??” as he was insulted that you could take with one hand & stab him in the back with the other.
Quote “OCM Australia for crying out loud had to stop using / recomending amain fuel in there range of redline engines as they were blowing up left right and centre and they could not figure out why... and guess what.. when they stopped using amain there was no more problems” This whole statement is incorrect. I was told it is totally incorrect from one of the 2 people in OCM that know. He wasn’t very happy about your above statement. Don’t get me wrong, he wasn’t angry, he’s not like that, just not happy.
IMO most motor problems come from incorrect tuning, use or/& maintenance. There are always exceptions, but in general that is the case.
A few reasons why things go wrong (this is just a couple, there are HEAPS more) –
Newbies, they destroy a couple of engines & then change either the brand of engine or fuel & everything is great, so it must be the brand or the fuel. But they seem to miss the fact that they have learnt from the mistakes they made & are no longer doing the same things that destroyed the motors in the first place & that is why everything is great, & because they are being even MORE careful with their new, VERY expensive engine.
An experienced racer decides to change fuel, but rather than try starting from a view of “lets be careful & learn what is the best, tune, plug, etc with this fuel. They want to do everything the way they use to & when something goes wrong, “it’s the fuels fault”.
I know of a guy (I believe he is one of your “fact” guys) who had bearing problems whilst using Amain, he screamed from the highest hill top & told anyone that would stand still long enough that Amain was to blame. He then went & changed fuel & guess what…., he had another bearing failure. But because he had mouthed off soooo much, he tried to keep it quiet so he didn’t lose face, rather than do the honourable thing & let people know he was wrong.
There are people that do everything they can to maintain their engines, believing everything they do is correct, but they are actually making mistakes. A simple example of this is After Run Oil. A couple of drops down the carbie, remove the plug & put a couple of drops in through the plug hole, turn it over a couple of times (without the plug in), take it a step further by removing the back plate & put a couple of drops into the rear bearing. All sounds great, but next time the motor is started they don’t flush the oil out with the glow plug removed first. They just throw the warmer on & start it up. This can deposit After Run Oil up into the coils of the plug, which burns & damages the coil. Next minute, the fuel is crap because it destroys plugs….. or worst still the coil breaks off & damages the motor….. the fuel is crap because it destroys engines……
I’ve seen first hand the lack of knowledge that MANY regular racers have about their engines & because they don’t know any better, it must be something else’s fault… motor, fuel, plug…
I’ve seen experienced racers not tighten the head screws properly which resulted in an air leak, followed by a half ruined engine from running it lean as a result. I’ve seen guys get Loctite in the front bearing when putting the fly wheel on, holes in fuel lines etc etc.
I’m sorry, but what you have been saying is not fact, it is all assumption from a few guys directly & then stories of others. “Fact” is when these motors & the fuel have been examined by a Metallurgist & Fuel Engineer/Analytical Chemist who then say “yes, this fuel is bad etc”.
As I’ve mentioned before, I use to run a Go 25 & used MM’s 444 fuel & apart from some dumb things I did like stripping head screws, never had a problem. I’m now running a MG66 using Amain C2 Blue dot. I ran the motor in using this fuel & am up to about 10 litres of running. Never had a flame out, never destroyed a plug. I replaced the plug at around 5 litres, before I raced Proline just to be safe & the plug was still perfect. Yesterday we raced a 4 hour enduro, which your team won, congratulations. I raced my car for around 1 ¼ hours before my steering servo gave up. The car ran flawlessly till that point, 13 minute tank times, tonnes of power, no tuning problems, flawless!! I even started getting use to my new Losi 8ight T 2.0. As you may have seen on another forum, one of the guys on another team who normally runs a different fuel in his Ninja, ran Amain C2 Blue Dot instead (As he couldn’t get his normal fuel). To say he was impressed with the performance increase, I think would be an understatement.
Dave, as I’ve said, I have nothing against you, apart from insulting me in a group sense, you have not attacked me personally. I just totally disagree with what you are saying & from my own investigation have been unable to find any proof to support what you are saying. I’ve heard opinions & stories, but nothing I would take as proof.
Cheers
Pete.
As you well know i too have nothing against you either mr black, Yesterday was an awesome days racing and we too (my team) had our had our fair share of problems including a dead engine and clutch as well as the fact the car was not steering at the end of the day and had no low end power due to clutch issues, I hope there will be many more top events like this in the future
I was half expecting some one to say something to me about the posts on here and sure enough i was aproached by a few racers that had an opening comment of "so here is the amain hater".. lol, Anyway the end result of that was simply more apraisel from people i did not relise had had problems with amian fuel/ go engines and marks opinions etc, I have had more than my fair share of people applaud me for actully saying something out loud about all this amain sueing nonsense
In regards to the redline engines i dont know who you spoke to but the response i got was a rather different one
Yes i was lent the 7 port and as allready said to Rob many times on the day including in online forums thankyou very much, im sure i would have done the same. However that does not give that person or anybody the right to tell me what i can or cant do with my engine.. I showed my engine to maybe 5/6 friends.. every one likes to see a blown engine
, What i do with my engine is my business and if some one dont like it to dam bad!!And yes mark warrented the engine but as i understand it if you use solely amain fuel and go tech engines he suplies a warranty.. Keep in mind that engine was rather new right down to the fact it still had metal pinch
I actully have said to many people be it online or in person "good on mark for doing the right thing".. And i never posted about that engine or anything untill the sueing threats thing happened and the threats and comments from my hard core online friends
Also i dont make abusive comments to any one that has not given me motive to do so prior, Many mindless comments have been made by people including threats to a 16 yr old mate of mine.. they all came out of no wear and i never said anything without a prior mindless moron comment
...I wont stand for it and if i have something to say it is simply a response to what some one has posted which has told me allot about there mantality, I note that i am now also been threatend by one of these hard core people that must be in there 20,s or 30,s going on 9yrs from what ive read... lolIm glad you are happy with your mm relations and having a good run with the products... its all good and makes the racing day much more enjoyable to say the least, We simply have to agree to disagree on some things mate
I know of about 4 people only using amain at LRRCC currently and about 15 people that were using it that would now not go near it with a 10 foot barge pole as they say
Dave
11-09-2009, 03:14 AM
#95
GOODAY every one.
well said pete.
i was going to post some damming stuff about dave (rcskyline), but i will hold it off to give him a chance to read, reflect & correct on what blackie has posted. maybe he will ask the mods to delete the thread all together & send some appolagies to the people, his club & most of all to mark.
the ball is in your court, dave.......
as for what you publically said about me on the other thread, which my son read & told me about, as i was having a shower, we will still have to settle later. you should be feeling really lucky rite now because 13 people last tuesday night pm me your address.
over to you now dave.........
well said pete.
i was going to post some damming stuff about dave (rcskyline), but i will hold it off to give him a chance to read, reflect & correct on what blackie has posted. maybe he will ask the mods to delete the thread all together & send some appolagies to the people, his club & most of all to mark.
the ball is in your court, dave.......
as for what you publically said about me on the other thread, which my son read & told me about, as i was having a shower, we will still have to settle later. you should be feeling really lucky rite now because 13 people last tuesday night pm me your address.
over to you now dave.........
Ahh dear.. what have we here...
, Last week you guys threaten 16 yr olds now meWell actully mr hard core the "ball is in your court" seen as you have my address do you not think?
Your not at all welcome here but if thats how you feel come and say hi.. what time will you be arriving?
Ill put the kettle on yeah?
Dave
11-09-2009, 03:29 AM
#96
Dave I know your upset but I very much doubt the driver in question said that, I remember that meeting and speaking to that driver. He was upset when I spoke to him that he had given you an engine to finish the meeting and then went around bagging to brand before finding out the cuase of the failure.
I qoute "dont go flashing that engine around will you"
I should not be mentioning it here now but seen as i keep getting posts that make me out as a lier ill have my say
Rob and i have different opinions on go techs and amain fuel.. if thats going to come between us and we cant be friends so be it but i think thats a bit silly personly
Been a factory driver is one thing.. wanting to hide the truth about engines and or what happened is another and personly i dont think its the way to go. honesty is the best option particuly in a business sense i beleive
And sorry mate but we knew the cause as we could see that the bearing had failed in some way and had let the rod hit the case
The exact cause of some engine failours is all but never fully worked out as it can be very hard to determan what happend and in what sequence
Dave
11-09-2009, 04:32 AM
#97
Tech Addict
Okay,
Hopefully what I want to write get's percieved in the tone that is not condeming nor adds to the slinging match that's been going on for some time.
However after seeing OCM's name and Redline's name get braught up in this thread, I thaught it best to put the facts down from our perspective.
Please also bear in mind I now have no affiliation with OCM now.
I'm attaching the 2 posts from both Theo and I which were posted in our team drivers only section on the ocm forum. I do know Dave's mate Cam had access to this and to stop any he said/she said type conversations I'll throw it out on here. Please also bear in mind this was WELL OVER 12 MONTHS NOW.
I have edited the names of drivers as it was a confidential post and is not fair to name names on here.
#13 30/09/08, 02:41 PM
Kev L
OCM Australia
OCM EVO Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 288
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We Tested the 1st batch in March.
Checked piston/Liner after a hard A final in NSW States.
The dimensions were exactly the same as when brand new on Piston. Telling us the oil is very good.
Then Mark ran out of A-Main and we tried Centuer which was actually a very good fuel and we ran that for about 2 months which takes us to begining of June.
In June Mark made some new A-Main and Theo got a brand new engine and within 3 litres the bearings were stuffed.
I'd used my same old engine and my bearings shat emself at the same time too. Mine had done heaps of running so we were'nt too sure at this time if it was fuel related as mine had done heaps and Theo's bearings could of been a fluke. We were however starting to doubt the fuel but wanted to do a proper test.
So both Theo and I put brand new engines in our cars and I ran mine on my own mix and Theo ran his on A-Main. This to us was the only way of doing a proper back to back test as both engines did exactly the same run time.
Within another 5 litres Theo's bearings were shot and mine were perfect. Mine has actually done nearly 30 litres now and is still going strong.
Then I started asking around the pits but being as diplomatic as we could be as I didn't want to sour my relationship with Mark from MM.
Found out that.
Theo had done 2 Redline engine Rear bearings.
I'd done a Go Engine Rear Bearing
"edited" had done a RB Rear Bearing.
"Edited" had done a GO Engine rear bearing
"Edited" had done a V-Spec TKO Ceramic Rear Bearing
"Edited" Had done a Sirio Rear Bearing
"Edited" had done a Werks Rear Bearing
"Edited" had done 2 Novarossi bearings and 1 Sirio Bearing.
See the pattern emerging.... I spoke to Mark and unfortunately he said that it must be something we're doing wrong as the likes of "name edited" are doing great with it in truggy...lol..That's really comparing apples with apples huh.. which is why I ended up saying "Sorry Mark I cannot promote your fuel any more..."
A lot of new guys do come upto Theo and I and ask for advice on fuel and I couldn't hold my hand on my heart and say use this fuel it's great.
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#14 30/09/08, 09:48 PM
Theo
OCM International
OCM EVO Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to add an final evaluation of the fuel after many litres of testing and this is my honest take on it.
The the "special" oil is outstanding in terms of lubricating factor. My engine probably did about 30-40L on the same Piston/liner/rod/crank only that I had to replace rear bearing almost every 5-10L's as the bearing would just go.
Checking the bearing it looks like it is corrosion that caused the failure.
After the first bearing went and I changed with new ones I was very careful in terms of making sure all fuel was drained and cleared after every race but still bearings die with corrosion to be the issue.
So in summary:
- Fuel lubricating factor is awesome and probably better than any other fuel i've tested.
- Being a "special" oil uses (i dont know what it is) it probably doesnt have the rust inhibitors/detergents etc that the main stream oils have and hence the corrosion and serious discoloration of the internals.
- The fuel is still very new and like any new product will need alot of testing/development and i'm sure in time will be a great fuel to use.
For now, we are sticking to what we know and that is mixing our own fuel, so I recommend for the rest of the team to do so aswell.
__________________
OCM Australia
" Was Cook, Now Waitress"
Now guys as I stated this was well over 12 months ago and as was posted back then it was a new product which was undergoing testing and development.
This sounds like it has been done as Mark's braught out 3 different fuels since then and I have it from a good source that he had changed supplier for his ingrediants with them being for the methanol or nitro (not sure which sorry)
At the time, I will admit I was annoyed as he was comparing me to other drivers and we were trying to do the best for him and like everything in RC emotions fly and everything get's blown out of proportion.
However like back then, I still wish Mark the best of luck and I hope that he reads this and doesn't think I'm trying to bag him out. I just wanted to put things straight from my perspective of the " facts back then"
Would I use his fuel now ?? Probably not to be honest, however I still wish him and his drivers all the success with it.
Would I have a beer or ten with MM ?? I bloody hope so.
Hopefully what I want to write get's percieved in the tone that is not condeming nor adds to the slinging match that's been going on for some time.
However after seeing OCM's name and Redline's name get braught up in this thread, I thaught it best to put the facts down from our perspective.
Please also bear in mind I now have no affiliation with OCM now.
I'm attaching the 2 posts from both Theo and I which were posted in our team drivers only section on the ocm forum. I do know Dave's mate Cam had access to this and to stop any he said/she said type conversations I'll throw it out on here. Please also bear in mind this was WELL OVER 12 MONTHS NOW.
I have edited the names of drivers as it was a confidential post and is not fair to name names on here.
#13 30/09/08, 02:41 PM
Kev L
OCM Australia
OCM EVO Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 288
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We Tested the 1st batch in March.
Checked piston/Liner after a hard A final in NSW States.
The dimensions were exactly the same as when brand new on Piston. Telling us the oil is very good.
Then Mark ran out of A-Main and we tried Centuer which was actually a very good fuel and we ran that for about 2 months which takes us to begining of June.
In June Mark made some new A-Main and Theo got a brand new engine and within 3 litres the bearings were stuffed.
I'd used my same old engine and my bearings shat emself at the same time too. Mine had done heaps of running so we were'nt too sure at this time if it was fuel related as mine had done heaps and Theo's bearings could of been a fluke. We were however starting to doubt the fuel but wanted to do a proper test.
So both Theo and I put brand new engines in our cars and I ran mine on my own mix and Theo ran his on A-Main. This to us was the only way of doing a proper back to back test as both engines did exactly the same run time.
Within another 5 litres Theo's bearings were shot and mine were perfect. Mine has actually done nearly 30 litres now and is still going strong.
Then I started asking around the pits but being as diplomatic as we could be as I didn't want to sour my relationship with Mark from MM.
Found out that.
Theo had done 2 Redline engine Rear bearings.
I'd done a Go Engine Rear Bearing
"edited" had done a RB Rear Bearing.
"Edited" had done a GO Engine rear bearing
"Edited" had done a V-Spec TKO Ceramic Rear Bearing
"Edited" Had done a Sirio Rear Bearing
"Edited" had done a Werks Rear Bearing
"Edited" had done 2 Novarossi bearings and 1 Sirio Bearing.
See the pattern emerging.... I spoke to Mark and unfortunately he said that it must be something we're doing wrong as the likes of "name edited" are doing great with it in truggy...lol..That's really comparing apples with apples huh.. which is why I ended up saying "Sorry Mark I cannot promote your fuel any more..."
A lot of new guys do come upto Theo and I and ask for advice on fuel and I couldn't hold my hand on my heart and say use this fuel it's great.
__________________
Kev Lewis
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#14 30/09/08, 09:48 PM
Theo
OCM International
OCM EVO Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to add an final evaluation of the fuel after many litres of testing and this is my honest take on it.
The the "special" oil is outstanding in terms of lubricating factor. My engine probably did about 30-40L on the same Piston/liner/rod/crank only that I had to replace rear bearing almost every 5-10L's as the bearing would just go.
Checking the bearing it looks like it is corrosion that caused the failure.
After the first bearing went and I changed with new ones I was very careful in terms of making sure all fuel was drained and cleared after every race but still bearings die with corrosion to be the issue.
So in summary:
- Fuel lubricating factor is awesome and probably better than any other fuel i've tested.
- Being a "special" oil uses (i dont know what it is) it probably doesnt have the rust inhibitors/detergents etc that the main stream oils have and hence the corrosion and serious discoloration of the internals.
- The fuel is still very new and like any new product will need alot of testing/development and i'm sure in time will be a great fuel to use.
For now, we are sticking to what we know and that is mixing our own fuel, so I recommend for the rest of the team to do so aswell.
__________________
OCM Australia
" Was Cook, Now Waitress"
Now guys as I stated this was well over 12 months ago and as was posted back then it was a new product which was undergoing testing and development.
This sounds like it has been done as Mark's braught out 3 different fuels since then and I have it from a good source that he had changed supplier for his ingrediants with them being for the methanol or nitro (not sure which sorry)
At the time, I will admit I was annoyed as he was comparing me to other drivers and we were trying to do the best for him and like everything in RC emotions fly and everything get's blown out of proportion.
However like back then, I still wish Mark the best of luck and I hope that he reads this and doesn't think I'm trying to bag him out. I just wanted to put things straight from my perspective of the " facts back then"
Would I use his fuel now ?? Probably not to be honest, however I still wish him and his drivers all the success with it.
Would I have a beer or ten with MM ?? I bloody hope so.
11-09-2009, 04:42 AM
#98
Tech Addict
Double post sorry
Last edited by Soapy; 11-09-2009 at 04:52 AM. Reason: doubled up for some reason??
11-09-2009, 02:44 PM
#100
Well sorry but your wrong and i dont tell lies!
I qoute "dont go flashing that engine around will you"
I should not be mentioning it here now but seen as i keep getting posts that make me out as a lier ill have my say
Rob and i have different opinions on go techs and amain fuel.. if thats going to come between us and we cant be friends so be it but i think thats a bit silly personly
Been a factory driver is one thing.. wanting to hide the truth about engines and or what happened is another and personly i dont think its the way to go. honesty is the best option particuly in a business sense i beleive
And sorry mate but we knew the cause as we could see that the bearing had failed in some way and had let the rod hit the case
The exact cause of some engine failours is all but never fully worked out as it can be very hard to determan what happend and in what sequence
Dave
I qoute "dont go flashing that engine around will you"
I should not be mentioning it here now but seen as i keep getting posts that make me out as a lier ill have my say
Rob and i have different opinions on go techs and amain fuel.. if thats going to come between us and we cant be friends so be it but i think thats a bit silly personly
Been a factory driver is one thing.. wanting to hide the truth about engines and or what happened is another and personly i dont think its the way to go. honesty is the best option particuly in a business sense i beleive
And sorry mate but we knew the cause as we could see that the bearing had failed in some way and had let the rod hit the case
The exact cause of some engine failours is all but never fully worked out as it can be very hard to determan what happend and in what sequence
Dave
Thats not the kind of bloke Rob is and I hate to see his outstanding reputation tarnished in this topic, anyway I've said my piece and will only be watching this topic and eating my popcorn from now on.....
11-09-2009, 03:25 PM
#101
Dave
the basis for your continuing argument is that you " THINK " i want to sue Cameron . Can you supply a sworn affadavit stating thats what i told him that was my intention ? If you cant supply this then you are making it up to continue an argument and thats a FACT ! . When i spoke with Camerons father he asked me what i was prepared to do about this problem . Because the problem ORIGINALLY was Cameron sprouting your message and his problems from god knows how long ago.. And without even going through the proper channels. what person has an apparent problem with a product and cries to everybody before giving the manufacturer a chance or consulting with them first ? Yet i still wanted to hear yours and Camerons concerns in a professional manner one to one . No wonder nobody gives warranty in this game .. i must be the stupid one out insisting in honouring warranty regardless of how discurteous the client is. And we do warrant Go Engines regardless of wether you run A MAin or MM fuel , we do however extend the warranty period by 3 months if you do use A mAin fuel which is Approved by Go Factory in Taiwan !
Originally i emailed Cameron , i got no response, i emailed his father , he called me and we had a good chat, i did mention during this conversation amongst other things that my IP lawyer said that it basiically constitues slander, and it odes , but suing was never mentioned , and i wasnt interested in suing anyone which i made quite clear , anyway He wanted me to call Cameron but i thought that he should maybe chat to him and see whats the deal with the problem. Then Cameron called me and his first question is are you going to sue me ? And i honestly laughed , cameron can verify this , or at least i hope he will , i then stated " why would i want to sue you ? i want to hear what went wrong "
I can catigorically state that i did not say i wanted to sue Cameron in any way shape or form. What on earth would i want to spend thousands of dollars suing a 16 year old kid ? id rather spend the money on a holiday to be honest ! The idea in your head is just small town gossip.
Many of the statements you said are FACTS have since been proven incorrect by people investigating . So it just looks like you are flogging a dead horse for the sake of trying to scrape in some sort of credibility , but if you look over the posts youll find that people can see through your story.
Regarding Rear bearings ,
And i thank Soapy for posting his findings up here , if you look over the report that the piston and compression were fine in his engine , yet the bearings failed due mainly to corrosion.
and i quote from Kevin Lewis post
" The the "special" oil is outstanding in terms of lubricating factor. My engine probably did about 30-40L on the same Piston/liner/rod/crank only that I had to replace rear bearing almost every 5-10L's as the bearing would just go.
Checking the bearing it looks like it is corrosion that caused the failure. "
Normally you would retire a rear race bearing every 10 to 15 litres anyway , and i know how hard Soapy can drive. To his credit he is a very capable driver !
Ok so there is an indipendent finding that corrosion caused the bearing faliure. it further states that the piston and liner were in great shape indeed raced on for 30 to 40 litres. There is no lack of lubrication issue here , its a lack of after care maintenance which causes bearing faliure and indeed a number of bearings that would have failed at this point regardless of what fuel was used. You leave a bearing once un maintained and it will develop small spots of corrosion in a matter of hours ! This is the fault of the methanol and nitromethane . Nitromethane no matter where you get it is made from Nitric Acid , when its burned in the combustion process it returns to its former , Nitric Acid , when you couple this with Methanol which attracts moisture in the presence of nickel iron alloys you get CORROSION !
EVERY RC FUEL WE USE HAS METHANOL AND NITRO IN IT ! EVERY FUEL HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE CORROSION IF YOU DONT LOOK AFTER YOUR ENGINE !!!!
ive seen corrosion in engines from every type of fuel available , part of what i do here at Massive Mods is repair engines for people who run all types of engines and fuels. Some have corrosion , some dont ...
For the sake of this we have a hand full of people had bearing corrosion yet we have hundreds of people use the same fuel without any problems what so ever . So if you weigh it out whats prevailing here if common sense is used ?
When you run your engine with corrosion on the rear bearing it will accelerate the wear process. Hence a bearing faliure after 3 to 4 litres ..
If the fuel wasnt doing its job then the whole engine would wear in the same amount of time , not just the rear bearing. And way before a bearing falure ococurs you would wear the crank pin and rod .. A bearing only needs about 1 to 2 % of the oil in a fuel to live its material life expectancy.
So tell me how can an oil lubricate a piston and liner with outstanding results yet decide to bypass the bearing ? Trying to hinge bearing faliure on the oil that lubricates a piston and liner very well and somehow gains consiousness then diverts its self away from the bearing ? You must think that this fuel is alive with some sort of nano technology robot that averts the fuel on purpose from the rear bearing , because i signed a pact with a bearing manufacturer that gives me 2 cents for every bearing i damage with my Nano Technology Fuel. For christ sake are you that dumb ? Dosent the same fuel and oil lubricate the front bearing as well ? Then why is it the rear bearing is the one that cops it ?
3 things that cause this
Crap quality bearings
Poor after run care
Rear bearing is left sitting in un burned fuel
Between the 3 of these things you got a lot of reasons for rear bearing faliure .
And if you want testament to A MAin oil you are welcom to call Brett Rogan from Posideon racing . He races F2 and F3 race boats FULL SCALE. When he decided to use A MAin oil he rebuilt an engine to run specifically only on this oil for purpose of experimentation. Normally he has to re build an engine every 800 to 1000 litres of racing. The engine he runs on A MAin oil has over 2000 litres , has never been stripped down or rebuilt and is still running strong ! The stress on this engine is immense ! He runs this engine on Methanol and A Main oil . he also runs it on benzene and A Mail oil. and being a race boat it ingests a quantity of salt and fresh water, more reason for corrosion but guess what ? his engine has no corrosion . Beacuse he flushes it after a race ! Thats what you do with a race engine when you run it on methanol ! or any fuel for that matter . Just another fact , these engines run at WOT the whole time ! if an oil dosent do its job in there its gonna blow !
he recently won the Bridge to Bridge with this engine in 1250 cc class in F3
His engine is worth about $15,000. if you want testament to A MAin oil call him , he is happy to vouch for the quality of the oil !
And please DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON IT , CALL HIM ! Hear it from his mouth ! You wanted facts ? here they are .
Brett Rogan 0400117030
Cheers MM
the basis for your continuing argument is that you " THINK " i want to sue Cameron . Can you supply a sworn affadavit stating thats what i told him that was my intention ? If you cant supply this then you are making it up to continue an argument and thats a FACT ! . When i spoke with Camerons father he asked me what i was prepared to do about this problem . Because the problem ORIGINALLY was Cameron sprouting your message and his problems from god knows how long ago.. And without even going through the proper channels. what person has an apparent problem with a product and cries to everybody before giving the manufacturer a chance or consulting with them first ? Yet i still wanted to hear yours and Camerons concerns in a professional manner one to one . No wonder nobody gives warranty in this game .. i must be the stupid one out insisting in honouring warranty regardless of how discurteous the client is. And we do warrant Go Engines regardless of wether you run A MAin or MM fuel , we do however extend the warranty period by 3 months if you do use A mAin fuel which is Approved by Go Factory in Taiwan !
Originally i emailed Cameron , i got no response, i emailed his father , he called me and we had a good chat, i did mention during this conversation amongst other things that my IP lawyer said that it basiically constitues slander, and it odes , but suing was never mentioned , and i wasnt interested in suing anyone which i made quite clear , anyway He wanted me to call Cameron but i thought that he should maybe chat to him and see whats the deal with the problem. Then Cameron called me and his first question is are you going to sue me ? And i honestly laughed , cameron can verify this , or at least i hope he will , i then stated " why would i want to sue you ? i want to hear what went wrong "
I can catigorically state that i did not say i wanted to sue Cameron in any way shape or form. What on earth would i want to spend thousands of dollars suing a 16 year old kid ? id rather spend the money on a holiday to be honest ! The idea in your head is just small town gossip.
Many of the statements you said are FACTS have since been proven incorrect by people investigating . So it just looks like you are flogging a dead horse for the sake of trying to scrape in some sort of credibility , but if you look over the posts youll find that people can see through your story.
Regarding Rear bearings ,
And i thank Soapy for posting his findings up here , if you look over the report that the piston and compression were fine in his engine , yet the bearings failed due mainly to corrosion.
and i quote from Kevin Lewis post
" The the "special" oil is outstanding in terms of lubricating factor. My engine probably did about 30-40L on the same Piston/liner/rod/crank only that I had to replace rear bearing almost every 5-10L's as the bearing would just go.
Checking the bearing it looks like it is corrosion that caused the failure. "
Normally you would retire a rear race bearing every 10 to 15 litres anyway , and i know how hard Soapy can drive. To his credit he is a very capable driver !
Ok so there is an indipendent finding that corrosion caused the bearing faliure. it further states that the piston and liner were in great shape indeed raced on for 30 to 40 litres. There is no lack of lubrication issue here , its a lack of after care maintenance which causes bearing faliure and indeed a number of bearings that would have failed at this point regardless of what fuel was used. You leave a bearing once un maintained and it will develop small spots of corrosion in a matter of hours ! This is the fault of the methanol and nitromethane . Nitromethane no matter where you get it is made from Nitric Acid , when its burned in the combustion process it returns to its former , Nitric Acid , when you couple this with Methanol which attracts moisture in the presence of nickel iron alloys you get CORROSION !
EVERY RC FUEL WE USE HAS METHANOL AND NITRO IN IT ! EVERY FUEL HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE CORROSION IF YOU DONT LOOK AFTER YOUR ENGINE !!!!
ive seen corrosion in engines from every type of fuel available , part of what i do here at Massive Mods is repair engines for people who run all types of engines and fuels. Some have corrosion , some dont ...
For the sake of this we have a hand full of people had bearing corrosion yet we have hundreds of people use the same fuel without any problems what so ever . So if you weigh it out whats prevailing here if common sense is used ?
When you run your engine with corrosion on the rear bearing it will accelerate the wear process. Hence a bearing faliure after 3 to 4 litres ..
If the fuel wasnt doing its job then the whole engine would wear in the same amount of time , not just the rear bearing. And way before a bearing falure ococurs you would wear the crank pin and rod .. A bearing only needs about 1 to 2 % of the oil in a fuel to live its material life expectancy.
So tell me how can an oil lubricate a piston and liner with outstanding results yet decide to bypass the bearing ? Trying to hinge bearing faliure on the oil that lubricates a piston and liner very well and somehow gains consiousness then diverts its self away from the bearing ? You must think that this fuel is alive with some sort of nano technology robot that averts the fuel on purpose from the rear bearing , because i signed a pact with a bearing manufacturer that gives me 2 cents for every bearing i damage with my Nano Technology Fuel. For christ sake are you that dumb ? Dosent the same fuel and oil lubricate the front bearing as well ? Then why is it the rear bearing is the one that cops it ?
3 things that cause this
Crap quality bearings
Poor after run care
Rear bearing is left sitting in un burned fuel
Between the 3 of these things you got a lot of reasons for rear bearing faliure .
And if you want testament to A MAin oil you are welcom to call Brett Rogan from Posideon racing . He races F2 and F3 race boats FULL SCALE. When he decided to use A MAin oil he rebuilt an engine to run specifically only on this oil for purpose of experimentation. Normally he has to re build an engine every 800 to 1000 litres of racing. The engine he runs on A MAin oil has over 2000 litres , has never been stripped down or rebuilt and is still running strong ! The stress on this engine is immense ! He runs this engine on Methanol and A Main oil . he also runs it on benzene and A Mail oil. and being a race boat it ingests a quantity of salt and fresh water, more reason for corrosion but guess what ? his engine has no corrosion . Beacuse he flushes it after a race ! Thats what you do with a race engine when you run it on methanol ! or any fuel for that matter . Just another fact , these engines run at WOT the whole time ! if an oil dosent do its job in there its gonna blow !
he recently won the Bridge to Bridge with this engine in 1250 cc class in F3
His engine is worth about $15,000. if you want testament to A MAin oil call him , he is happy to vouch for the quality of the oil !
And please DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON IT , CALL HIM ! Hear it from his mouth ! You wanted facts ? here they are .
Brett Rogan 0400117030
Cheers MM
11-09-2009, 03:36 PM
#102
Not to cause an argument here, I really wasn't planning on posting any time soon but one comment I really disagree with...
''Normally you would retire a race bearing after 10 - 15L anyway''
Are you serious dude?
40 litres is laughable in most RB and Nova engines that I've seen.
Hell I've got a 17 litre old one here... Not an ounce of play in the rear bearing. Then again it has been run on some of the best fuel in the country...
Don't take offence... If there's something to back up your statement I'd like to hear it. I'm curious.
Cheers
''Normally you would retire a race bearing after 10 - 15L anyway''
Are you serious dude?
40 litres is laughable in most RB and Nova engines that I've seen.
Hell I've got a 17 litre old one here... Not an ounce of play in the rear bearing. Then again it has been run on some of the best fuel in the country...
Don't take offence... If there's something to back up your statement I'd like to hear it. I'm curious.
Cheers
11-09-2009, 05:10 PM
#104
Tech Master
Not to cause an argument here, I really wasn't planning on posting any time soon but one comment I really disagree with...
''Normally you would retire a race bearing after 10 - 15L anyway''
Are you serious dude?
40 litres is laughable in most RB and Nova engines that I've seen.
Hell I've got a 17 litre old one here... Not an ounce of play in the rear bearing. Then again it has been run on some of the best fuel in the country...
Don't take offence... If there's something to back up your statement I'd like to hear it. I'm curious.
Cheers
''Normally you would retire a race bearing after 10 - 15L anyway''
Are you serious dude?
40 litres is laughable in most RB and Nova engines that I've seen.
Hell I've got a 17 litre old one here... Not an ounce of play in the rear bearing. Then again it has been run on some of the best fuel in the country...
Don't take offence... If there's something to back up your statement I'd like to hear it. I'm curious.
Cheers
I have seen RB's with rooted bearings inside of 10 litres
I have also seen RB's that have done over 30 litres on the same bearing and rod
I have seen GO Techs die within 5 litres
I have also seen GO Techs with over 30 litres on them same bearing and rod.
Do I even need to mention the Nova 367's......... they were truly crap.
BTW none of these engines were run ever on A-Main.........
I have blown many an engine in my day, I am sure I could blame the fuel, the engine, the GFC, but to be honest it is always something that I had done wrong, like bad tuning poor after care, etc.
Still no fun in being honest is there.........
BTW, we currently run 2 MG 66's and each of these engines have had over 20 litres on them (all of it AMAIN BLUE DOT). Same bearings same rod, all I have ever done is run these engines dry after each race day and used Mark's after run oil.
Cheers
Mark
11-09-2009, 09:11 PM
#105
this is all hilarious
i used to run MM fuel
a group of us ordered a batch one day and when it arrived it was a different colour. we rang mark and he said that he was out of dye so this batch didnt have any in it.
we cooked 3 motors in less than a litre. 1 RB and 2 OS's
we rang mark again and he wanted us to pay to ship it back to him for testing and if it was bad he would refund the money for the fuel but not the motors
needless to say it had just cost us 3 motors so we wern't prepared to pay to ship it anywhere when chances are that when mark received it he would do anything about it.
we couldnt believe that he would be prepared to test it and admit that it may have been a bad batch but wouldn't do anything about the motors it blew up
so we changed fuel
to this day i will tell anyone tht with MM you get what you payed for. his fuel can be good one week and bad the next. his mods can be great one week blow up the next.
i've met mark at the track a couple of times and he seems to be a great guy. but i dont trust his product
IMO it should be called MAD SCIENTIST or MASSIVE PROBLEMS instead of MASSIVE MODS
so anyway, simple solution. if you think its not right, dont use it
i used to run MM fuel
a group of us ordered a batch one day and when it arrived it was a different colour. we rang mark and he said that he was out of dye so this batch didnt have any in it.
we cooked 3 motors in less than a litre. 1 RB and 2 OS's
we rang mark again and he wanted us to pay to ship it back to him for testing and if it was bad he would refund the money for the fuel but not the motors
needless to say it had just cost us 3 motors so we wern't prepared to pay to ship it anywhere when chances are that when mark received it he would do anything about it.
we couldnt believe that he would be prepared to test it and admit that it may have been a bad batch but wouldn't do anything about the motors it blew up
so we changed fuel
to this day i will tell anyone tht with MM you get what you payed for. his fuel can be good one week and bad the next. his mods can be great one week blow up the next.
i've met mark at the track a couple of times and he seems to be a great guy. but i dont trust his product
IMO it should be called MAD SCIENTIST or MASSIVE PROBLEMS instead of MASSIVE MODS
so anyway, simple solution. if you think its not right, dont use it