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Old 06-19-2009, 08:52 AM   #91
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Torco Race Fuel I did not mean to single out you or to bash your company, on
the contrary I admire you for starting a business that promotes our great
hobby.
I have to disagree about fuel dyes. As mentioned my engines insides turned the color of the fuel dye either the dye impregnated or formed some type of
coating on the internal sufaces of my engine. This change in suface changes
the rate friction between the piston and sleeve. Could you tell me if the friction rate increases or decreases? I would think it increases IMHO.

A 8,000 hp dragster is a total different animal, our air cooled two stoke engines must run in some races 45 minutes with out melting. I think fuel dyes do effect performance IMHO.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:01 AM   #92
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Oil percentage versus nitro percentage is in my opinion not a factor. Meaning that simply because your running a higher nitro content you do not need to run more oil i.e. if 9% of whatever oil is in the fuel is safe with 20% it's also safe at 30%. Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions...
When one uses a higher nitro content, the power gain comes from passing more fuel through the engine overall. By that logic, using a 20% fuel and a 30% fuel (both with the same oil content) in properly tuned engines would result in more oil being passed through the engine running 30% nitro. Ron, would you agree that a higher nitro content fuel can get away with a lower oil content?
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:04 PM   #93
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When one uses a higher nitro content, the power gain comes from passing more fuel through the engine overall. By that logic, using a 20% fuel and a 30% fuel (both with the same oil content) in properly tuned engines would result in more oil being passed through the engine running 30% nitro. Ron, would you agree that a higher nitro content fuel can get away with a lower oil content?
This is interesting and I might be completely off in this so I need to ask.

To my understanding the mixing of fuels is done in volume-% meaning that against each CC consumed by the engine the same absolute amount of oil passes through as the only thing changing is the ratio and thus amount of nitro and methanol. Now the oil% should be determined on many factors but one is ofcourse the fact that you need to maintain certain oil film in the moving parts and to do that you need certain amount of oil in fuel.

Now considering the engine consumes x-amount of fuel / stroke the A/F determines the amount of oil going to the engine. By increasing the nitro% you need to richen the engine thus passing more oil through in absolute amount. However considering the burn process you just compensate the added oxygen by richening the mixture.

So if more nitro would require less oil would that then be a complete mess as you'd need to consider also the average tune of the engine to secure the lubrication wether you are changing the nitro% or not ?
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:21 PM   #94
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Hey topcat, I was actually talking about RC Race engines on a dyno, the dye did not affect 3 different motors at all, yes there is dye in the motor but affect horsepower NO not at all, we ran 3 engines on the dyno with blue, red, purple and yellow dye..it did nothing, no loss at all not even a little..however ..there are different dyes some use liquid dye some use powder maybe that will affect it, we only use powder and always have so not sure if the liquid would take away or not it might being a thicker liquid than the fuel blend..

Steven Davis
(480) 242-6326
www.torco.com
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:00 PM   #95
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Thanks Ron, for your response on the oil %. That does help enlighten me a little bit about that issue.

I have heard about the different lubricant packages but wanted some more educated answers.
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:29 PM   #96
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:25 PM   #97
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:41 PM   #98
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Byron all the way
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:07 PM   #99
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Poinas2, I looked over your questions again and have to say that you kind of lost me there lol! Not sure if my post above also addresses your question, if not please put up your question worded a little clearer and I'll try to answer it.

Regards,

Ron Hopkins
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Well it kind of a does and doesn't

Where I was aiming at was the fact that as you say Nitro carries it's own oxygen and considering the very basic approach:

More nitro in same absolute amount of fuel means more oxygen in same amount of fuel, thus with same needle settings you get leaner mixture

You compensate this by richening the mixture thus also putting more oil through the engine

Now considering a RC engine with it's design and combined with a certain pipe the engine produces it's best power with certain A/F mixture as every engine out there

The total amount of Nitro in fuel determines basically the absolute power you can get out of it

Now considering our carbs have pretty primitive design and the lubricating oil is put to the engine already mixed with the fuel by altering the mixture and thus the A/F ratio you also automatically alter the amount of oil you pass through the engine meaning you also change the lubrication the engine gets.

So taking all above in to account my question was : you could think that if you alter the mixture ie. the "tune" you alter the amount of oil passing through the engine so if you think the amount of nitro having effect to the needed oil % you also play with the mixture or "tune" as you basically are fiddling with the same variables ?

My approach was to rather think the process as a finding the most effective A/F ratio for MAX power and still maintain the safe amount of lubrication (ie. the oil%) to secure engine operation. What we all can agree (probably) is that going lower oil amount in fuel makes the combustion process more efficient as you lower the amount of material put to the engine that does not increase the combustion process. So lower oil content you should see better idle, less loading, more power and easier tuning but the question is how low you can go safely as not us all are good tuners and we have so many variables on the way with as said pretty primitive carb design thus having ever changing absolute mixture passing to our engines.

From my experience with Byron I like the ProDriver (9% oil) more than the normal blend (11%) as to me it gives more linear tuning and as you could say "crisp" acting engine. What would be also interesting is to have open discussion wether or not we can live without Castor oil in our blends considering the modern synthetic oils available. To my understanding you get much better burning with synthetic oils than you do with Castor so you would think that we should get rid of the Castor completely. However do we really have such synthetic oils that can replace the Castor and still be "cost effective" so that you can use them in the RC fuels and "still make some money"
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:26 PM   #100
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Well I am kind of bored so I quess that I will throw my .02c in as well.

I am running a fuel that is available down South called NitroJuice. The mixture is 30/10 and I really like it, dare I say more then Byrons?!?

Ahhhh, blasphemy!!!!

Well I have run nitro engines for nearly 25 years in aircraft, I have only been bitten by the newest addiction (racing) for a bit over two months now. I started running NitroJuice based off of a recommendation from a guy at my LHS who I absolutely trust, he has told me when to keep my wallet in my pocket, and he has told me when it is worth spending the money. So far he has been pretty darn accurate.

Anyway, I was at the track a few weeks ago when I ran out od NitroJuice and the track LHS was out of NJ 30%, so I picked up a gallon of Byrons 30/9. I remember the days of the Byron Originals Expo where they put on one hell of a show, for those of you who have no idea of what I speak then watch this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBz8_5hvxWM

Those are their airplanes they blew up, the PT boats and tanks had people inside operating them, and that was a very large aircraft carier they built in their harbor. Ahh memories.

Back to subject, I was fully expecting the Byrons fuel to run at least as well as the NJ due to a very long running good reputation and past memories, but even after I tuned the engine to it (and I do have an idea how to tune, maybe not as well as Ron Paris, but I am not lost) the Byrons just did not run as well.

Maybe it is just my +4 not liking the Byrons as well, although I know many others like Byrons in their +4's (Monty), but the NJ just ran cooler, got more time out of it, and held the tune better.

I am not saying that the Byrons is bad, I KNOW better, just that I had an easier time with the NitroJuice for whatever reason. Needless to say I am back to NJ now and once I started running it again the engine idles better, runs cooler, and I am getting 10 min run times again. I cannot explain it, tat is just how it has worked out for me. So there, my .02c and a kick ass video for those of you to watch who do not remember when Byrons was one of the kings of large, scale aircraft. I used to get the latest issues of Model Aircraft and RC Modeler and just droool over the Byron Originals adds.
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:56 PM   #101
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I am not saying that the Byrons is bad, I KNOW better, just that I had an easier time with the NitroJuice for whatever reason. Needless to say I am back to NJ now and once I started running it again the engine idles better, runs cooler, and I am getting 10 min run times again. I cannot explain it, tat is just how it has worked out for me. So there, my .02c and a kick ass video for those of you to watch who do not remember when Byrons was one of the kings of large, scale aircraft. I used to get the latest issues of Model Aircraft and RC Modeler and just droool over the Byron Originals adds.
Well it was just an example towards the amount of oil in the blend not as an example of the ultimate blend
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:16 AM   #102
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:38 AM   #103
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Old 06-20-2009, 06:48 AM   #104
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Oil question for yuh Ron or Steven....
Now Ive heard some companys run a full synthetic oil package and some run a mixture of synthetic/ Castor oil package. Is the full synthetic package better than a mix package? Why do some company's run mix package with a high % of synthetic and small amount of Castor? (example 9%synthetic and 2% castor) Does that Castor add to the longevity of the motor?


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Old 06-20-2009, 08:40 AM   #105
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Well then that makes sense Ron, I really do like the NJ fuel, it runs great.

I will throw in a quick thought on having some Castor oil in the mix. Castor oil can make a bit of a mess on your engine and pipe with a varnish that forms under heat (at least is aero fuel, I really do not know if 2% is enough to do the same in the car fuel) but in the aero engines at least that Castor varnish wil also build in the engine itself under heat. Sounds bad doesn't it?

It's not. That varnish that is built up under heat will form a kind of protective coating when the engine gets hot, the piston/sleeve fit does not score. I have had an aero engine go reeaaal lean in the air when the spring steel needle finger broke allowing the needle to turn in and go lean. It should have killed the engine, but the 6% Castor in the mix (12% syn/6% Castor...Morgan Omega) kept that engine alive. It was HOT when it came down but the piston/sleeve fit was and still is great today.

I do not know if there is enough in the car fuel to help like this though?
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