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Old 12-31-2008, 08:49 AM   #31
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this threads really got me torn..im night very fast right now..just aint got a track within 2 hours at the moment from my house so im less than consistant..i really like both my losis right now..BUT the wear of steering and its inconsistancys from track to track throw me off right now..iv been to crc(at crc everytime iv been down there every amain guys run a different bugggy it seems) a few times and m. dent is a big name down there..only seen the guy race maybe back in oct.& didnt realize he ran an xray..recently up at factory track in mich. and seeing the kyoshos them things are brilliant..look a couple steps ahead of all designs ecxept those shock clips like those on the mugen..the top racers at every track i go to race different buggys which makes everything interesting the way i see it
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Old 12-31-2008, 10:29 AM   #32
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its not offensive to me that people say things are similar to the losi...
since its probably one of the most popular cars on the market, not to mention if you look at race results it seems to do pretty well...lol
I have ran and worked on both and I can say they are nothing alike to drive or work on. people that say they are have never owned both only looked at them.. And I dont see Hudy taking a car and copying it but using the best metals on the market, but if they did attempt it then good for them!! I can get 12 gallons on my outdrives and after running certain cars I am ok with that..lol
as far as kyosho yes they did reinvent the wheel and good for them also, I heard they puposely wrecked the car 100 times over a jump simply to see what angle to put the wing mount so it would land on its wheels the most!!!! that R and D. but also with R and D comes a price obviously.
Both cars have been proven and both are a more than solid choice.

and to 8&STUFF if your happy with the losi then stick with it its a good car..
next time your down to CRCRC stop by and if you want to take my car for a tank your welcome to it... also we can change your front cvd pin out for an xray pin, I know alot of the losi guys have to get much more wear out of it.

thanks
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:47 PM   #33
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nice thread..useful stuff i might use this spring..just a little concerning that the 808's are only in race results overseas on euro tracks..mp9 or the new mugens look to me to be holding up a tad more but im only going by a few mp9's at a track that iv been going to lately..cant give details but i know for a fact of an old mugen that a freind of mine has raced for a couple years and only had 1 knuckle to replace. the few 808's iv seen look like my all beat to hell losi buggy..
Its just marketing.... 101

Xray doesn't support a huge team or "big-time drivers $$" in the US, thats why they aren't always in the results. Its somewhat a numbers game, however I should mention that with the few racers they did have at the worlds, Xray had the 3rd fastest car after 4 days of qualifying in horrible conditions. Ya, Xray's USA "A-team" driver Josh Wheelers tires came unglued and took him out of the A-main, but the car more than showed its potential. The funny thing is if you look at the sportsman racers running these cars, they are finishing races and getting lots of drive time without wrenching much. I think this is another reason this 808 rocks for your average racer, you get more practice with a durable car.

P.S. I'm sitting in a room filled with trophies won while driving an Xray, and for me thats enough to make me "a retarded fan boy"... LOL!

Pick a top car, and stick with it!

Ohhh and expect to see Tebo taking his MP9 to the podium quite often in 2009, but if your going to pick a car based on that your just wrong! IT's TEBO!
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:33 PM   #34
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I appreciate hearing wisdom in fact and from threads all over this forum i read just that in this thread. I am at a low scale at the moment just building off of any and all wheel time i can get. you all just said it and its what a guy reads when identifying facts about any buggy, its the racer that makes that buggy not the bug making him a good racer. In the spring if i can get the mp9 for the price iv been quoted id be a fool not to go kyosho.

Xrays certainly the ticket for a racer by all means so im gonna remain torn for a bit as i study and weigh what i can see from results of durability and consistancy throughout a season of racing.

right now at my learning level losi has been more than convenient because of availiability and the amount of people in my immediate area running them to obtain hints and so on. then again im apprehensive to even buy a 2.0 because of what iv already learned about the 1..similar or not they are still not the same. iv considered putting a new 2.0 on the shelf to just look at lol considering the price of them at the track in columbus..i got so much losi crap just like lots of guys so prolly just roll with that for several+more gallons.

once again thx expanding the format of my buggy knowledge...just hope i didnt highjack some other guys thread cause i need to learn lol
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:11 PM   #35
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The only original losi idea in the 8ight is the rear gearbox layout. everything else is copied for previous nitro ( overall chassis layout) and electric cars ( front and rear suspension/ hubs)
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:30 PM   #36
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Xrays quality is second to none, and I have never been faster with any other buggy, you can drive it like you stole it or you can put it in cruise control and its always planted. I also agree with what some of you said, its just whatever feels good to you. And with me its the best of both worlds, quality and performance. But in the end its ultimately up to you.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:40 PM   #37
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If you're going to boycott a brand just because you perceive them to have "copied" another, you may just as well leave the hobby entirely, since it happens with ALL companies at varying degrees over the course of time. No company that I'm aware of puts a patent on the overall design of their car. If they did, virtually every firm would be entangled in lawsuits and the cost of patenting and ensuing litigation would either drive said firms' product prices to skyrocket, or propel them into insolvency.

No patent/copyright/trademark = no claim of ownership

since theft implies ownership, if someone cannot defend a claim of ownership, any talk of theft is unfounded.

In short, your argument is defective because you proceed from a defective premise... But a pre-emptive happy new year to you all the same
Take it easy there, Mr. Legal Beagle. I have quite a bit of experience in trademark and copyright law, and in many cases, you don't have to file official paperwork to protect your design. It's your "work product" and anyone that wanted to take these copycats to task simply needs to prove first use. In fact, copyright is instant - that is, any creative work is instantly protected by copyright law by virtue of the fact that you "created and reproduced it in a tangible medium." The laws were streamlined in the DMCA ammendment to Article 17 of the US Code to address violations related to the internet, but the basic premise has been the same since it was created in 1976. The bottom line is, I don't think it would be too tough to prove that IP rights were violated here. There are thousands of examples where statutory damages have been awarded for reproducing works that are vaguely similar at best, so it doesn't even need to be an exact copy. So, nice try, but you're off base. If I were to have my car stolen while it's running with the keys in it, I could be accused of being careless, but the person that stole the car is no less responsible. Just because I made it easier to steal by not protecting it as much as I could, doesn't make the person that stole the car any less culpable. If you were such a legal person, you would know that patent and other intellectual property laws are not written for the RC manufacturers of the world. They're for GM, Microsoft, IBM, Lucent, and all the other companies where billions of dollars swing in the balance and ironclad protection of IP rights simply helps to expedite the process. It would be tough to justify legal action in the RC business just because of the time and legal expenses involved. Even if you were successful in prosecuting an IP claim, the losses would be dwarfed by the expenses, which is what encourages all the nonsense that goes on in the RC biz.
My issues with this aren't based on any legal premise, however. I have a fundamental objection to any company that simply measures up a competitor's product and reproduces it to such a great extent. It's one thing to size up the competition when deciding what direction to take with your own design - it's yet another to simply copy another car with a couple twists. I expect more from Xray because I believe they're capable of more. Just because they can get away with it is no justification in my opinion. I still find it personally distasteful and wrong. That's my opinion and you don't have to agree with it, but I will never support them. I'll tell anyone that asks that it's a quality product, but that doesn't temper my dislike for companies that engage in these practices. Every time someone copies another product, it reduces the willingness on the part of those that truly innovate, to continue with their pursuit of innovation. Take it to the logical extreme and tell me what happens when Associated, Kyosho, Mugen and others can no longer afford to allocate resources for development because there are too many copycats that will harvest the rewards of their hard work and investment. You'll have a bunch of companies waiting around to knock off the next good design, but there won't be any because nobody wants to line their competitor's pockets at their expense. It's not healthy for the RC market in the long term and at best, a violation of the principles of decency to say the least. I may be standing on principle too much, but I want RC to stay around for a long time and for the people that are REALLY innovating to keep that desire.

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Ohhh and expect to see Tebo taking his MP9 to the podium quite often in 2009, but if your going to pick a car based on that your just wrong! IT's TEBO!
Haha! I'm really glad you put the "lol's" in there. What happened to the "It's just TEBO" when he WASN'T winning with the O'Donnell car?!

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Old 01-05-2009, 11:44 PM   #38
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Ouch! I really need to introduce you to something called a paragraph.

Firstly, I'm not a "legal beagle," nor have I ever claimed to be, but I do have a fair understanding of commerce. You are quite right, one need not file or register any paperwork in order to protect a design or idea; I've been able to successfully demonstrate that for myself.


"The bottom line is, I don't think it would be too tough to prove that IP rights were violated here."

-I will freely admit that the XRAY 808 seems to "borrow" a great deal from the 8ight, especially in terms of the suspension, but seemingly not enough to bother Losi who, to the best of my knowldge, have not elected to take any action against XRAY. Whether this is because they cannot or choose not to, I do not and will likely never know, nor do I particularly care; the great toy car empire carries on.

"There are thousands of examples where statutory damages have been awarded for reproducing works that are vaguely similar at best, so it doesn't even need to be an exact copy."

-Can you site any such cases? Changes on the order of 15% or more to any given design constitutes a legally-distinct and separate design as far as I know.

"Even if you were successful in prosecuting an IP claim, the losses would be dwarfed by the expenses, which is what encourages all the nonsense that goes on in the RC biz."

-That depends entirely on how you go about defending your IP. I do my own "defending" without a lawyer, and no formal legal training and have been successful every time... And I don't have tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer's fees either. Security agreements rock!

"My issues with this aren't based on any legal premise, however. I have a fundamental objection to any company that simply measure's up a competitor's product and reproduces it to such a great extent. It's one thing to size up the competition when deciding what direction to take with your own design - it's yet another to simply copy another car with a couple twists."

-Then you'll have to add Kyosho to your roster along with XRAY: the "revolutionary" layout for the 1987 Kyosho 1/8 Burns was, if memory serves me, lifted off a lesser-known competitor whose buggy was on the market well before the Burns (the great, great, great, great grandfather of the Inferno series.)

If anything, I find it rather funny that the alleged "Losi 8ight copy" is a head-and-shoulders improvement over the original in virtually every respect. We should be happy that XRAY didn't the Losi too perfectly

"Every time someone copies another product, it reduces the willingness on the part of those that truly innovate, to continue with their pursuit of innovation. Take it to the logical extreme and tell me what happens when Associated, Kyosho, Mugen and others can no longer afford to allocate resources for development because there are too many copycats that will harvest the rewards of their hard work and investment. You'll have a bunch of companies waiting around to knock off the next good design, but there won't be any because nobody wants to line their competitor's pockets at their expense."

Associated and Kyosho have been around for decades, Mugen for about one decade and are in as fine a form as they've ever been. Knock-off artists have been around since time immemorial; they come and go while those who know how to hone their craft endure, since he who copies is almost invariably playing catch-up to a rival that is generally at least a step ahead in the game. Some things simply cannot be copied.

The fact that the 1/8 nitro buggy class has seen a virtual explosion of new offerings in the last 3-4 years shows that there's enough pie to go around, and as with any market, if tough economic times are ahead, those with the know-how to stay afloat will, those that don't won't.

Either way, you'll buy whatever inspires you, and the rest of us will do the same, and the world won't stop turning just because you think your brand of toy car is better than my brand of toy car.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:00 AM   #39
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jeez louise i just sussed out how much an mp9 is to buy in Australia and its $1,200 AUS which is approx $850 US but considering a dollar is valued the same to us here thats basically like you guys paying $1200 for it.

that alone would push me towards the 808.

the K-car looks like an awesome ride but not $1,200 good!
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:12 AM   #40
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Haha! I'm really glad you put the "lol's" in there. What happened to the "It's just TEBO" when he WASN'T winning with the O'Donnell car?!
LOL,.. its Tebo!!
If you read my post I said "podium", like this year when only two other drivers in the US could beat Tebo and his O'Donnell buggy. I was their....


I still say dont make up your mind to drive a brand of car based solely on who's winning with it.
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:32 AM   #41
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I know that this might not be totally on the same ball field but I had owned a Kyosho Kanai III and then switched to the XRAY XB8. It was like a night and day difference, to me. Not saying that I did not like the Kyosho but the XRAY went together so much easier, the manual was easier to read, and the overall quality of the parts was awesome.

I have since moved to the TQ, then the EC, and now I have been running my 808 since they came out. I love this vehicle and have only had 1 problem which was my own fault. I blew the diff case as i did not do very good maintenance to the bearings. Since then I have tumbled, cartwheeled, came off jumps wrong, and nothing has broke. This buggy is awesome.


I am not taking nothing from the MP-9 as I have never driven one, but I know that I will not switch to any other vehicle.
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:12 AM   #42
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I know that this might not be totally on the same ball field but I had owned a Kyosho Kanai III and then switched to the XRAY XB8. It was like a night and day difference, to me. Not saying that I did not like the Kyosho but the XRAY went together so much easier, the manual was easier to read, and the overall quality of the parts was awesome.

I have since moved to the TQ, then the EC, and now I have been running my 808 since they came out. I love this vehicle and have only had 1 problem which was my own fault. I blew the diff case as i did not do very good maintenance to the bearings. Since then I have tumbled, cartwheeled, came off jumps wrong, and nothing has broke. This buggy is awesome.


I am not taking nothing from the MP-9 as I have never driven one, but I know that I will not switch to any other vehicle.
dude your story is almost the same for a guy at my track, he was a hardcore kyosho fan, he tried xray just to try something different. Now he drive xray only, and he told me he didn't intend to change.
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:26 AM   #43
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Same here. I tried a few different brands and I was in the market for a new buggy. I did some research and chose the 808 and i'll never drive anything but XRAY again
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:41 AM   #44
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The 808 is really durable and just loves landing back on its wheels no matter what kind of crap you put it through.


Never tried the MP9. Saw it run once. Looks nice. Kind of looks like it's still using some of the older technology, though? Guess that's a good thing, some of those older buggies are nearly invincible.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:24 AM   #45
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I recently switched to the 808 after watching my buddy race the entire season without having to replace a single broken part while my rc8 was always on the bench with something broken. The rc8 was great, but the plastic was Chinese discount special IMHO.

My 808 handles like a dream and the build quality is impeccable. It was an absolute pleasure to put together. The plastic is unbelievably tough. I never worry about stripping the plastic. When I am on the track now, the thought of the car breaking never even crosses my mind whereas before if I kissed a wall or came up short with the RC8 it was "oh shit, what did I break now..."

X-Ray for life. I even put off buying a truggy in anticipation of a new 808t coming out this year I am so impressed with the quality of this car.
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