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Old 09-17-2008, 05:14 PM   #16
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Getting rid of bump steer on pillow ball suspension is like a 2.00 fix and its all Gone BTW.
Enlighten me with this fix, I am interested
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:26 PM   #17
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Technically what you are calling pillow ball setups are actually called pivot ball front ends. Though I see kyosho sometimes uses the term "pillow ball". Of course they also have been known to call links, "rinks" in their helicopter manuals.

Sorry, couldn't resist messin with you guys, you're all so serious.

I run pivot ball on both my buggy and on road car. Neither are mugen and I've had a great deal of success with both. I've never had an upper arm break on either car. In fact I've never had an arm break at all on the buggy. The only failure I can think of is, sliding into the boards (or something else) hard, can push the pivot balls into the arms and strip the plastic threads causing the p-balls to come loose (usually in the lower arm). But that would take a pretty hard hit. I've only done it once, on-road.

Pivot ball unsprung weight is a few grams heavier than c-hub which is a few grams heavier than kingpin, but a pivot ball front end is tough as nails. I've broken more than my share of c-hubs and lost even more screws out of kingpin front ends. I agree that there are other advantages/dis-advantages to all 3 front end types as alot of you have said. I don't wanna repeat all of it but, for me durability is way up there in the list of priorities.

As far as setup being a pain in the butt, I've never had a problem setting up a p-ball front end, but I do use a setup board for the on-road and a larger, homebrew copy of the board (the RACK) for the buggy.

My final thought is, you can win races with any of the three setups. People do all the time. So all things being equal, I'll go for durability.

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Last edited by helibrian; 09-18-2008 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:44 PM   #18
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if your car doesnt have balls it aint fast!
i had the athlete which had c hubs, and the 5r had a stronger front end. the jammin ft car was not as strong and became sloppy.
the mugen,like matt said, can adjust the end cap on the pillowball and remove the slop
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:52 PM   #19
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How many C-hub knuckles you see break or lose screws compared to PB?? A hell of lot more so I think PB is more reliable.
I would say yes C-Hub has got more to go wrong but still just as reliable all in all.
I'm saying performance the C-Hubs are better more steering and freedom of movement. And if you have to make a repair its easier to fix the C-Hub. To each his own I have a Turmoil and a Jammin so I have played with them both. The Jammin I just make sure the king pin bolts are tight and with the Pillow ball I have to leave slop for it to turn free and they are plastic and the steering arms break easier than the aluminum. And I have to set the drop to prevent in from dropping to low or it will bind.

There all good but I think the C-Hub is better.

So lets vote. Some one put a pole up and we will see which wins.?
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:10 PM   #20
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What is the cheap fix for the bump steer with pillow ball? As far as I know the bump steer with pillow ball is extreme with no fix. The PB suspension is way harder to get "even" on both sides. That being said Mugen is the toughest car out there for the money. The only reason I am not going to buy the Mugen mbx6 is because it is pillow ball and not a c-hub.

The losi was very ahead of its time and everybody is still chasing its design!
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:34 PM   #21
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What is the cheap fix for the bump steer with pillow ball? As far as I know the bump steer with pillow ball is extreme with no fix. The PB suspension is way harder to get "even" on both sides. That being said Mugen is the toughest car out there for the money. The only reason I am not going to buy the Mugen mbx6 is because it is pillow ball and not a c-hub.

The losi was very ahead of its time and everybody is still chasing its design!
All you can do is set the droop so the arms don't drop as far, or shim the ball studs it just gets worse.
Its not that they wont turn in the air when trying to hit a jump while tuning and landing but it kills servos. I shimmed my ball studs and set full droop and still had to set some of the droop out with 1/8th" shims it helped free up the steering.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:11 PM   #22
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The losi was very ahead of its time and everybody is still chasing its design!
If you are talking about it's front end design Hpi beat them too it with the Hellfire now there D8 buggy uses it too
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:13 PM   #23
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I've had PBS too yes they suck
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:26 PM   #24
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I prefer kingpin style for off roading.

I'm worried pillow balls could easily come off upon impacts. Plus, the dirts could deposit heavily in the pillow ball's receptor.
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Old 09-18-2008, 04:29 AM   #25
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Enlighten me with this fix, I am interested
Well the bump steer is the movement of the wheels in or out while the suspension compression and decompresses. Most PBS setups if you look at them have there steering turnbuckles and ball ends at an angle compared to the front lower arm if looking at the car head on. I first noticed this when I had my ST-RR and compared it to my K8T. The ST-RR wheels did not move when the suspension was moved and the turnbuckle arms were lever or horizontal with the lower arms. So I put spacers under my turnbuckle rod end on my front knuckle and under the rod ends on the ackerman plate to level the arm out and make it horizontal with the front lower arm and "poof" no more bump steer. My wheels do not move at all when my suspension is moved up or down at any angle just like a C-hub. We have done this to numerous Mugens in my area, buggy and truggy and no more bumpsteer.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:19 AM   #26
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Those who are complaining about a Sportwerks PBS setup vs a Kyosho or Losi C-hub front end are not really being fair to the PBS. If you want to talk Sportwerks PBS you need to compare to a Hyper 7 or maybe even the Hotbodies cars. I had a lot of problems keeping steering knuckles on my Hyper 7 that I never had with a Mugen. But if you compare a Kyosho to a Mugen then the reliability starts to look similar. All I'm saying is do not let your experience with budget PBS buggies tell you a PBS system on an elite chassis cannot work just as well as a c-hub.

As to the Mugen bump steer that is intentionally designed into the car for handling reasons. As stated above it can be removed pretty easily. Don't you think the designers would have removed it by now if it was better that way? It's been there since at least 2003 on the original MBX5. On the other hand you can remove it or leave it that way on the PBS. The c-hub cars cannot add it so it is another tuning option I suppose.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:36 AM   #27
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On the other hand you can remove it or leave it that way on the PBS. The c-hub cars cannot add it so it is another tuning option I suppose.
C-hub cars can add bump steer in the same way you remove it on PBS cars... Just add or remove shims.... Check out a Xray 808 setup sheet, it's on there as a tuning option
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