The Future of RC Racing (Your Opinions)
06-06-2011, 12:18 PM
#46
Tech Initiate
I have only got back into R/C recently because a mate of mine bought a second hand(and very) crappy Thunder Tiger SSK.
Back in the day I used to bash about with a Tamiya Madcap that I built from a kit and I loved building it. At the time I was a big kid, left school and doing mechanics and instead of building a static airfix kit as I did when I was little I had the fun of putting this car together whilst the batteries were charging, learning how it worked whilst it went together.
The car I bought recently was nothing special, a beatup CEN Magnum NX. The first thing I did before I even ran it was to download and print off the the instruction manual from the site and strip and clean everything.
Whislt I was rebuilding I won a car quite cheap on ebay. When I went to pick it up, just looking at how different it was to the cen I decided that 1/10 wasn't for me so I asked a mate if he wanted to buy the cen from me. The chassis I picked up was a 1990 mugen super sport. I know it's donkeys years old but I like old stuff. Be it old cars, toys, weaponry or whatever and it just floated my boat.
I soon aquired another one, this was a runner but again the first thing I did was to strip and clean everything, relube and where I had the wrong screws or a part was cracked or just wrong I was able to make the best one out of all the pieces that I had(ok so I used the worst chassis plate so it didn't matter if it got scratched, I may be green but I aint no cabbage!)
Now if anything goes wrong I know exactly how to get to the offending part and fix it.
I prefer cars to come in a kit. For me, seeing everything come together as it's being built is half of the fun, as well as the mechanical aspect of it.
I don't get the point of electric cars, it's too sterile. I love the sound, the hysterical buzzing scream of a nitro car which you don't get with a battery powered car that just makes a whirring sound.I can't see the appeal of racing battery cars and trying to make them go fast. If I had an electric car then I'd go for a crawler as the way that the power is used is better for precision driving over a craggy course.
For me, it still amazes me that I have a two stroke engine that I can sit in the palm of my hand, it's just brilliant...and when I saw that you can get itsy bitsy starter motors for some engines that just need a little extra wiring and it's own channel on the reciever I nearly had a stroke...in fact I was ready to give it more than just a stroke
.
As I see it RTR has it's place and it's for those that just don't have a real interest. They get it out of the box, put in the fuel fire it up and go. Then when it breaks down they haven't got a clue about what to do. "it's stopped moving, it broke", "well, did you set the clutch right, is the flywheel on tight enough? Are the grubscrews tight enough on the end of the driveshafts?".
You can guarantee that in 99/100 you will be met with a blank stare, drool oozing down onto their t-shirt not having a clue about what you are on about.
For me, actually driving the cars is only a small part of owning one. The rest is making, setting up and tweaking to make sure it runs how I like it..
The arguement has been made that RTR has 'saved the sport'. Has it? All I see it doing is filling up endless ebay pages with cars that someone has bought RTR, had a bit of fun, crashed it, broke it, couldn't fix themselves so paid someone else to do it then they sell it because it costs them too much money.
Saying also that just because fual may have gone up by a small margin is forcing people over to electric doesn't work. With electric you have two choices. The older slow charge batteries that can take a fair bit of hammer and the all new singing and dancing LiPo batteries that if you don't look after right, even down to forgetting to disconnect them from your car overnight can cause them to swell and potentially explode isn't for the amateur to tinker with.
Back in the day I used to bash about with a Tamiya Madcap that I built from a kit and I loved building it. At the time I was a big kid, left school and doing mechanics and instead of building a static airfix kit as I did when I was little I had the fun of putting this car together whilst the batteries were charging, learning how it worked whilst it went together.
The car I bought recently was nothing special, a beatup CEN Magnum NX. The first thing I did before I even ran it was to download and print off the the instruction manual from the site and strip and clean everything.
Whislt I was rebuilding I won a car quite cheap on ebay. When I went to pick it up, just looking at how different it was to the cen I decided that 1/10 wasn't for me so I asked a mate if he wanted to buy the cen from me. The chassis I picked up was a 1990 mugen super sport. I know it's donkeys years old but I like old stuff. Be it old cars, toys, weaponry or whatever and it just floated my boat.
I soon aquired another one, this was a runner but again the first thing I did was to strip and clean everything, relube and where I had the wrong screws or a part was cracked or just wrong I was able to make the best one out of all the pieces that I had(ok so I used the worst chassis plate so it didn't matter if it got scratched, I may be green but I aint no cabbage!)
Now if anything goes wrong I know exactly how to get to the offending part and fix it.
I prefer cars to come in a kit. For me, seeing everything come together as it's being built is half of the fun, as well as the mechanical aspect of it.
I don't get the point of electric cars, it's too sterile. I love the sound, the hysterical buzzing scream of a nitro car which you don't get with a battery powered car that just makes a whirring sound.I can't see the appeal of racing battery cars and trying to make them go fast. If I had an electric car then I'd go for a crawler as the way that the power is used is better for precision driving over a craggy course.
For me, it still amazes me that I have a two stroke engine that I can sit in the palm of my hand, it's just brilliant...and when I saw that you can get itsy bitsy starter motors for some engines that just need a little extra wiring and it's own channel on the reciever I nearly had a stroke...in fact I was ready to give it more than just a stroke
.As I see it RTR has it's place and it's for those that just don't have a real interest. They get it out of the box, put in the fuel fire it up and go. Then when it breaks down they haven't got a clue about what to do. "it's stopped moving, it broke", "well, did you set the clutch right, is the flywheel on tight enough? Are the grubscrews tight enough on the end of the driveshafts?".
You can guarantee that in 99/100 you will be met with a blank stare, drool oozing down onto their t-shirt not having a clue about what you are on about.
For me, actually driving the cars is only a small part of owning one. The rest is making, setting up and tweaking to make sure it runs how I like it..
The arguement has been made that RTR has 'saved the sport'. Has it? All I see it doing is filling up endless ebay pages with cars that someone has bought RTR, had a bit of fun, crashed it, broke it, couldn't fix themselves so paid someone else to do it then they sell it because it costs them too much money.
Saying also that just because fual may have gone up by a small margin is forcing people over to electric doesn't work. With electric you have two choices. The older slow charge batteries that can take a fair bit of hammer and the all new singing and dancing LiPo batteries that if you don't look after right, even down to forgetting to disconnect them from your car overnight can cause them to swell and potentially explode isn't for the amateur to tinker with.
06-06-2011, 04:42 PM
#49
When they ask for the best rtr say something else like this will be the best rtr for you and dont bring up your opinion of THE best rtr made.
I think this is not a good wAy to get them into 1/8 scale racing if that is what you and others are going for having them buy your opinion of the losi buggy for 600, then 2 new servos 150-200, then another engine of 150-300.
I have mentioned rc8rtr, ofna buggies, caster racing buggies.if they have more experience and are older with a job i may recommend some of the kits that are avaliable today. Wether it is an associated or a mugen or kyosho but when news and novices here the prices of what i spent and the prices of the kyosho they back out even when i mention of cheaper ones.
I say mention cheaper ones caster racing, rc8rtr, and some of the ofnas more often than not. I see lots of newbs and young kids wanting to get an 1/8 scale and when people here on rctech tell them to spend over 1k i think they walk away cause when they ask their parents they say no way. Which is exactly what I would say too my 2 kids. I would probably get them a 300 dollar ofna black or caster racing buggy.
When my friends son asked me what it cost for mine he about crapped himself cause i have more invested in my rc cars than my 1:1 4x4 probably 3 times over or more.
06-06-2011, 04:53 PM
#50
socal is concidered one of, if not the biggest, rc racing areas in the world....sounds like to me someone needs use some of that "lazy, fat kid money" (seeing as how it seems to be OH SO plenty) and get out a little....i drive 60 miles 1 way to get to my local track (and that's with rough, bloody, cracked open hands, bust your ass, hard work'n money)....i'm SURE you could find a track alot closer than that to you.....oh, and no i'm not originaly from WI....was born and raised in SOCAL...where my rc racing experience began!!!
as far as the future of R/C racing...at this point i see it as in limbo....it can go either way....all dependant on the consumer and what they wanna do with their toy cars....
as far as the future of R/C racing...at this point i see it as in limbo....it can go either way....all dependant on the consumer and what they wanna do with their toy cars....
06-06-2011, 05:26 PM
#51
well, my 2 cents are just that.....
the way the Manufactures are going up in Over Gougeing for there products and Just "Laughing to the Bank" !!!!!!
it's nice to see places like D&B Designs to have stuff out with low prices and still make profits on "Volume"
example, is there REALLY a Reason Clutch Shoes are almost $30.00 for 4 Tiny Pieces of alloy and CHEAP alloy to break down?
when the guys at D&B are going to start making Clutch shoes very soon, for $7.00 for a 4 shoe set up !!!!!!!
thats like 23.00 dollars less !!!!!!!!!!
makes one wonder if they can make shoes for that much less??
what makes the others so much more "Special"....????
"NOTHING".......
same for Batteries...??
a typical 4S Li-Po sold here in the States are almost 200.00 !!!!!
when the same exact Battery with the
"Same-Manufacture ID Stamp" is only $45.00 .....
but they slap there Company Sticker on it and call it a day !!
and tell them selves:
"Some Idiot Will Pay For It that Doesnt Know Any Better"
Manufactures "Rely On People Thinking Just like this" to keep the gouging Profits in there Hands........
but funny thing is everyone has the thing well it's built here or there so it's "Better"
but like ion the Movie Armagedon "Russian parts,American Parts ALL MADE IN Taiwan !!!"
now that i am started !!
here is the "Worst one" and i am glad i had a part in bringing "NORCA DOWN" !!!!!!!! i was one of Hundreds !!!
but ROAR....?????? WTF....!!!!!!!!
ok, think of this....calculate the amount of ROAR Members?
then think how much is it to "Join"
then there is just a few people that are in "CONTROL" of it?? just a few a SMALL handfull?
what is that money and were talking Hundreds of Thousands !!!!!
what is it used for...????? Insurance...???? Booklets we no longer get? you Download it "ONLINE" !!!!!!! a "Sticker...?????
"Tracks Already Have Insurance" they HAVE TO !!!!
30.00 x lets take a Conservitive Figure?
for all the Regions....in the UNITED STATES....say 200,000
"Maybe".....30.00 x 200,000= 600,000 of "FREE MONEY" you give them...to make them RICH !!!!!!!
what do they really give you??? really ask this !!!!
yes some rules,but you do not need to give them that kind of money? to make rules....????
and by the way "You have the Right" it's the "Law" to know exaclt how they spend and use that Money.......but they will be Reluctant to tell you...they try and "Claim it as a Non-Profit deal....
yea, like there some kind of "Church"....give me a break?
i think the Manufactures need to kinda wake up? or they just may Overprice themselves out of Business..???
Samller places like D&B are Popping up and ready to take on manufactures that are pretty much "Gouging" people......
most have the American Automotive "Attitude" like selling a "Corvett" for 108,000 !?!?!?!?!?!
when you can get a 4 cars that is "Safer",Better,and more "Practical"
(dont even want to hear that Argument! because you get the idea!!)
like i have Money, but i have money because i dont spend it just to say i have the latest "Bling"
if i can buy a Short Course body for 25.00 and "Looks" like the other SC bodies on the market? why in the hell would i spend $45.00 on the same thing....?????
same for my 1/8 scale bodies? why would i spend 27.00 on a buggy body or $46.00 for the Stock Losi Truggy body? when i can get a buggy one for 15.00 and is the same Lexan everyone has? or a Truggy Body that looks "Exactly Like" the Losi Body for 25.00 !!!!!
but Better !!!
i am all about supporting my hobby shops,but if you have the means to buy Clutch shoes that are Better for $7.00 for a 4 shoe set?
why do i want to put an extra 23.00 bucks in someone elses pocket?
and not so much the hobby shops but those manufactures selling to the shops !!!
my kid races as well so we'll get shoes twice a month sometimes 3 times......
up till 2 months ago we were spending 90.00+ on Clutch shoes!!!
now were saving over 60.00 !!!!!! not hard to figure the math....
that is that much more FOOD in my Pantry per Month !!!
so where is this hobby going....??? Downhill in some Aspects? if the manufactures can figure a compromise? be better.....
another example anyone remember "Trinity"
Ernie P. had a Monoploy on the Battery market if you were a Battery matcher and were buying Ni-Cds and early Ni-Mh
you had to buy'em through Trinity....when that Broke down Batteries were "Inexpensive" as it should have been.......
but now it is Li-Po's and there are places like "HOBBY KING"
selling batteries for under 20.00 instead of paying 65.00+
another example, a company is making pretty much a "Clone" of the O.S. 21XZ-B Speed the O.S. motor is $499.00 !!!!
the Clone which the Piston and Sleeve "Mic-Out the Same" !!!!
the Clone is $200.00 !!!!!
i think once the "Genie" is let out of the bottle and some "Secrets" are let out....the hobby will be come better Affordable to most "Again".......
Now Who will be the First to take on the people doing up the "Fuel"
and "Tires"
because we all know it is Pure Proffit !!!!!
i am betting they could still put it out for 17.00 a gallon and still make a "Killing".....in fact i bet they would sell "MORE"
same on Tires......
ok, i feel better now......LOL
the way the Manufactures are going up in Over Gougeing for there products and Just "Laughing to the Bank" !!!!!!
it's nice to see places like D&B Designs to have stuff out with low prices and still make profits on "Volume"
example, is there REALLY a Reason Clutch Shoes are almost $30.00 for 4 Tiny Pieces of alloy and CHEAP alloy to break down?
when the guys at D&B are going to start making Clutch shoes very soon, for $7.00 for a 4 shoe set up !!!!!!!
thats like 23.00 dollars less !!!!!!!!!!
makes one wonder if they can make shoes for that much less??
what makes the others so much more "Special"....????
"NOTHING".......
same for Batteries...??
a typical 4S Li-Po sold here in the States are almost 200.00 !!!!!
when the same exact Battery with the
"Same-Manufacture ID Stamp" is only $45.00 .....
but they slap there Company Sticker on it and call it a day !!
and tell them selves:
"Some Idiot Will Pay For It that Doesnt Know Any Better"
Manufactures "Rely On People Thinking Just like this" to keep the gouging Profits in there Hands........
but funny thing is everyone has the thing well it's built here or there so it's "Better"
but like ion the Movie Armagedon "Russian parts,American Parts ALL MADE IN Taiwan !!!"
now that i am started !!
here is the "Worst one" and i am glad i had a part in bringing "NORCA DOWN" !!!!!!!! i was one of Hundreds !!!
but ROAR....?????? WTF....!!!!!!!!
ok, think of this....calculate the amount of ROAR Members?
then think how much is it to "Join"
then there is just a few people that are in "CONTROL" of it?? just a few a SMALL handfull?
what is that money and were talking Hundreds of Thousands !!!!!
what is it used for...????? Insurance...???? Booklets we no longer get? you Download it "ONLINE" !!!!!!! a "Sticker...?????
"Tracks Already Have Insurance" they HAVE TO !!!!
30.00 x lets take a Conservitive Figure?
for all the Regions....in the UNITED STATES....say 200,000
"Maybe".....30.00 x 200,000= 600,000 of "FREE MONEY" you give them...to make them RICH !!!!!!!
what do they really give you??? really ask this !!!!
yes some rules,but you do not need to give them that kind of money? to make rules....????
and by the way "You have the Right" it's the "Law" to know exaclt how they spend and use that Money.......but they will be Reluctant to tell you...they try and "Claim it as a Non-Profit deal....
yea, like there some kind of "Church"....give me a break?
i think the Manufactures need to kinda wake up? or they just may Overprice themselves out of Business..???
Samller places like D&B are Popping up and ready to take on manufactures that are pretty much "Gouging" people......
most have the American Automotive "Attitude" like selling a "Corvett" for 108,000 !?!?!?!?!?!
when you can get a 4 cars that is "Safer",Better,and more "Practical"
(dont even want to hear that Argument! because you get the idea!!)
like i have Money, but i have money because i dont spend it just to say i have the latest "Bling"
if i can buy a Short Course body for 25.00 and "Looks" like the other SC bodies on the market? why in the hell would i spend $45.00 on the same thing....?????
same for my 1/8 scale bodies? why would i spend 27.00 on a buggy body or $46.00 for the Stock Losi Truggy body? when i can get a buggy one for 15.00 and is the same Lexan everyone has? or a Truggy Body that looks "Exactly Like" the Losi Body for 25.00 !!!!!
but Better !!!
i am all about supporting my hobby shops,but if you have the means to buy Clutch shoes that are Better for $7.00 for a 4 shoe set?
why do i want to put an extra 23.00 bucks in someone elses pocket?
and not so much the hobby shops but those manufactures selling to the shops !!!
my kid races as well so we'll get shoes twice a month sometimes 3 times......
up till 2 months ago we were spending 90.00+ on Clutch shoes!!!
now were saving over 60.00 !!!!!! not hard to figure the math....
that is that much more FOOD in my Pantry per Month !!!
so where is this hobby going....??? Downhill in some Aspects? if the manufactures can figure a compromise? be better.....
another example anyone remember "Trinity"
Ernie P. had a Monoploy on the Battery market if you were a Battery matcher and were buying Ni-Cds and early Ni-Mh
you had to buy'em through Trinity....when that Broke down Batteries were "Inexpensive" as it should have been.......
but now it is Li-Po's and there are places like "HOBBY KING"
selling batteries for under 20.00 instead of paying 65.00+
another example, a company is making pretty much a "Clone" of the O.S. 21XZ-B Speed the O.S. motor is $499.00 !!!!
the Clone which the Piston and Sleeve "Mic-Out the Same" !!!!
the Clone is $200.00 !!!!!
i think once the "Genie" is let out of the bottle and some "Secrets" are let out....the hobby will be come better Affordable to most "Again".......
Now Who will be the First to take on the people doing up the "Fuel"
and "Tires"
because we all know it is Pure Proffit !!!!!
i am betting they could still put it out for 17.00 a gallon and still make a "Killing".....in fact i bet they would sell "MORE"
same on Tires......
ok, i feel better now......LOL
06-06-2011, 06:06 PM
#52
who is D&B designs, do they have a website? $7 clutch shoes sounds good.
06-06-2011, 07:02 PM
#55
I didn't even mention the racing aspect because i'm not going to drive 45 minutes to stand next to a bunch of 12 year olds who couldn't figure out how to solder a 3.5 motor plug. AND I'm in downtown LA a huge metropolis. Thats how dead RC racing is. When nothing was RTR we had maybe 6 tracks local in southern california. Now you have to drive almost an hour to the 2.
Back in the day a kid would get into the hobby with a frog or a hornet. A Tamiya, simple to build, A CHILD CAN BUILD. I built mine in 2 days when I was 12. The excitement of seeing your project come to life is what it was all about. I went to Ascot and it broke, I knew what broke because I built it.
Now its all about idiots that want to be ken block and will pay $150 extra for a special body and some green wheels. Most people didn't have anyone in the hobby they knew, there was a local hobby shop and you went and dreamt about the clodbuster and USA1. I've never raced. Found it boring. Always bashed. Both with friends and solo.
With the exception of Custom Rails and Wild custom projects I'm bored with cars and trucks. I'm only interested in scale stuff now.
I build kits for you lazy people to buy on ebay, and pay you do. Its amazing. I've sold 4 $700 crawlers because people are so lazy.
Back in the day a kid would get into the hobby with a frog or a hornet. A Tamiya, simple to build, A CHILD CAN BUILD. I built mine in 2 days when I was 12. The excitement of seeing your project come to life is what it was all about. I went to Ascot and it broke, I knew what broke because I built it.
Now its all about idiots that want to be ken block and will pay $150 extra for a special body and some green wheels. Most people didn't have anyone in the hobby they knew, there was a local hobby shop and you went and dreamt about the clodbuster and USA1. I've never raced. Found it boring. Always bashed. Both with friends and solo.
With the exception of Custom Rails and Wild custom projects I'm bored with cars and trucks. I'm only interested in scale stuff now.
I build kits for you lazy people to buy on ebay, and pay you do. Its amazing. I've sold 4 $700 crawlers because people are so lazy.
There are way more than just 2 tracks near LA.
-Revelation Raceway (Ontario)
-OCRC (Huntington Beach)
-West Coast (La Mirada)
-HotRod Hobbies (Valencia)
-Thunder Alley (Beaumont)
-ARC (Temecula)
-HCR (Hemet)...
Still many more to list...
I have to agree. Around here it's $29 for a gallon of Nitrotane. Usually the other brands are $1-3 cheaper.
06-06-2011, 07:43 PM
#57
Tech Addict
Lot of epic posts in this thread!
06-06-2011, 07:57 PM
#58
$35/gallon is bad? Try $50/gallon, that's what I paid for my Byron 30% here in South East Asia... 
06-06-2011, 09:32 PM
#59
i think the price of consumables is flat out ridiculous. 70$ for 4 little tires? I can put a real tire on my real truck for that cost. the most ridiculous has to be shock boots. almost 10$ for 4 boots? And of course clutch shoes, i am to the point where i keep certain clutch shoes for racing only i tune and practice with junk tires, junk shoes in a junk car that i practice with. Price of air filters is obscene as well, for the price of 4 filters i can get a foam sheet and make 30 (which gives me an idea).
on the flipside engineering companies with oem parts like mugen for example, design everything and machine all the parts and mold all there plastics which may not seem that expensive but cnc and injection molding machines are mucho$ and someone is not going to go through all the trouble to design parts with the tolerences and fit and finish that we see from xray, mugen etc unless they are going to make money and i have no problem with that. Its the absurd things like the cost of a little bottle of silicone oil, air filter oil etc. Fuel tubing is another one, you pay 4$ open the package and it's not even 2 ft long. And what the hell makes a transponder so dang expensive? It cost as much as a fhss3 reciever
I have wised up and started buying same products that are not RC related (brake cleaner instead of nitro spray for example). I also believe RTR has taken away ALOT from the hobby, i wanted to come back into the hobby earlier then i did but when i went to the rc shop all they had was RTR, i was like WTF? I had a hornet and rc10graphite as a kid and building and working on it was most of the fun, so when i realized everything was already put together i jetted straight out of the hobby shop. It was 2 years later that i realized that you could still buy "kits" to put together but they were like 600$ But i HAD to have one because I HAD to put it together.
Anyway i am done. Let me know when those
7$ shoes come out.
on the flipside engineering companies with oem parts like mugen for example, design everything and machine all the parts and mold all there plastics which may not seem that expensive but cnc and injection molding machines are mucho$ and someone is not going to go through all the trouble to design parts with the tolerences and fit and finish that we see from xray, mugen etc unless they are going to make money and i have no problem with that. Its the absurd things like the cost of a little bottle of silicone oil, air filter oil etc. Fuel tubing is another one, you pay 4$ open the package and it's not even 2 ft long. And what the hell makes a transponder so dang expensive? It cost as much as a fhss3 reciever
I have wised up and started buying same products that are not RC related (brake cleaner instead of nitro spray for example). I also believe RTR has taken away ALOT from the hobby, i wanted to come back into the hobby earlier then i did but when i went to the rc shop all they had was RTR, i was like WTF? I had a hornet and rc10graphite as a kid and building and working on it was most of the fun, so when i realized everything was already put together i jetted straight out of the hobby shop. It was 2 years later that i realized that you could still buy "kits" to put together but they were like 600$ But i HAD to have one because I HAD to put it together.
Anyway i am done. Let me know when those
7$ shoes come out.
06-06-2011, 10:28 PM
#60
Tech Addict
I feel for anybody having to pay $30 + for a gallon of fuel. LHS here charges $25 to $27 for 30%. He is not trying to support a nitro track tho.
1blade1, I understand a lot of your feelings but you need to get some of your math right. ROAR has less than 10,000 members, far less. They also have only one paid employee. I am surprised they can do what they do with what they take in. My big gripe with them is still not a big snuff push for some cost controlled racing.
dreaux, buy fuel tubing off bulk rolls, far cheaper and you can mix and match colors for the bling factor.
It all boils down to if everyone is going to follow the go fast part of the week they are going to be spending a lot of money. Manufacturers and distributors learned long ago that hype brings green to their pockets.
Every time something comes out that might work like the core truck as an example people can't wait to turn it into a manufactures hop up goldmine.
We the racers and badgers are our own worst enemy.
Ed M.
1blade1, I understand a lot of your feelings but you need to get some of your math right. ROAR has less than 10,000 members, far less. They also have only one paid employee. I am surprised they can do what they do with what they take in. My big gripe with them is still not a big snuff push for some cost controlled racing.
dreaux, buy fuel tubing off bulk rolls, far cheaper and you can mix and match colors for the bling factor.
It all boils down to if everyone is going to follow the go fast part of the week they are going to be spending a lot of money. Manufacturers and distributors learned long ago that hype brings green to their pockets.
Every time something comes out that might work like the core truck as an example people can't wait to turn it into a manufactures hop up goldmine.
We the racers and badgers are our own worst enemy.
Ed M.