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Old 07-17-2008, 11:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by speedybill View Post
I'd like to know where the HECK ur buying 30% nitro fuel for $10 a gallon????
I think you will find he is talking about a gallon lasting 3 weekends racing... divide 30 by 3 and you got 10 bucks a weekend in fuel.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jayjay283 View Post
I started with electric and went to nitro to get more speed and runtime, the flame outs, lean bog and uncertainty of going somewhere and getting it started grew old. I went to 1/5 gasoline but the size grew old. Now that you can get a 8000 mah lipo battery or run a low KV motor and get 25 minutes of runtime and go faster than Nitro and gasoline ive changed back. Charging a TX pack and RX pack a glow plug ignitor battery and a starter box battery just didnt make sense. You dont even charge than many batteries to run an electric conversion... And for that guy who complained he doesnt want to be confused for driving a radio shack car, I think you may have some insecurity issues that go beyond RC. Radio shack going 60+ mph, maybe in a few years but not now.
Nothing like my experience. I'm not the greatest of tuners but i have flamed out once in a race in about 8 months, and i know why and it wasn't the engines fault... rolled the car using up the fuel in the pipe then pitted so the vacuum in the tank was broken and cut exiting the pit. Lesson learned.

I don't get the whole charging TX, RX starter and glow battery each time thing. I use a cheap 12v gel cell battery for starter box... can't actually remember last time i charged it. A few weeks before i left the states and went home to the UK for four months... now i am back and have been to the track four or five times without charging it. Glow start goes about a month without charging - and thats going to the track 4 - 5 times a week. Transmitter batteries last a week, i don't use rechargables and RX battery goes around an hour and a half to two hours between charges. Granted it is 5xAA cell size rather than a cheap 1200 thing, i think though it was 30 bucks, maybe 35.

I can't see at this stage how there is any real convincing "argument" for one being out and out beter than the other, all i see is personal preference.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:12 PM   #48
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That's correct. 30/gallon, not 10. Reading comprehension

Keep in mind I think that electric is definitely a viable alternative... Both have their advantages and it's personal choice. I have been through many of these debates with R/C helis.... Same thing, both sides are passionate about what they like.

My post was simply to point out that (IMO) switching to electric due to a rise in fuel costs is not a very legitimate reason.

Bulldawg makes some good points, but there is one I want to address:

Quote:
Cost: It cost about the same to build a RACE SPEC 1/8 electric as it does a nitro. However, electric will be cheaper in the long run because you do not have continuous fuel cost and the motors last longer. If you are just bashing, then nitro will be cheaper.
Ok but what about the battery life? How many cycles can a lipo see in a 1/8 scale application before performance starts dropping off? I know this question was applied to a .50 size heli vs. same size lipo-powered one and it came out to be a wash on "fuel" costs because the life expectancy of a 6S-8S lipo in a heli that size was around 200 cycles.

One other point to ponder, if a bad crash damages the lipo, it might be junk. Though it's more applicable in an aircraft situation it's still a possibility.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:41 PM   #49
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As an electric driving rookie I have to say that I like the nitro stuff and it's initially what attracted me to the hobby/sport. However, the price of entry into electric initially was much lower and I felt the learning curve would be steeper with nitro.

I've found, at the track and online, that nitro drivers are very evangelical about their chosen type of RC vehicles. If you drive electric, they'll paint your car as a "beginner's toy" and nitro as the "big boys" - which I guess I can see, in a way. Messing with engines, getting oil all over the place, burning your fingers...these are all very manly activities that apply to full-scale cars and trucks, too. Soldering irons and quiet electric motors, not as much. You come home smelling like burnt fuel, it's all very masculine.

I think it's funny that it's such a "Hatfields and McCoys" thing among the two camps. They're both cool and fun. I'll tell you what though, buying fuel every month for an RC car is a lot less appealing than just charging up my battery, after I spend $80 filling up my car's gas tank these days! That probably won't stop me from eventually caving in and getting a nitro truggy to race, because I still think they're sweet...but it's gonna be a few years!
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:53 PM   #50
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Wow, reading some of the post from you "die hard" nitro guys reminds me why I stopped racing. Do you guys even realize how retarded you sound yelling at the turn marshals or other drivers? IT'S JUST A FREAKIN HOBBY! Get over yourselves. You're not Adam Drake. The world is not going to end if you don't finish first. It's supposed to be fun, but you jackasses manage to suck every ounce of fun from it.

If you like nitro, just enjoy it and leave the electric guys alone. Honestly I think you guys are just butt sore and don't realize that you're the ones sounding like women and children. And I've raced electric and nitro, so I know the pros and cons of both. No one is "forcing" electric down your throat. Just because it's gaining popularity now and the battery and motor tech has finally surpassed nitro in power doesn't mean you guys aren't going to be able to race anymore. Plus, you guys have had the limelight for the past 10 years or more, so quit your whining.

You can keep your smell, noise, and mess.
First off all, if you like electric that's great. Enjoy it and leave us nitro guys alone. Follow your own advice. Second, I have seen many an electric racer screaming at turn marshals and other drivers. I quit electric because I find electric racers far too serious.

And finally, if you want to switch to electric because you think it's cool and want to do it that's fine but to use a slight rise in the cost of fuel as an excuse just doesn't fly. Every time someone comes out with a hot new lipo pack or charger or brushless speed control or whatever it's always a few dollars more then the previous one. When I started racing electric the best battery packs you could get were $20 a piece. At the same time nitro fuel was around $18 a gallon. Which one has gone up more?
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:30 PM   #51
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Well, I was looking at going with a Electric Conversion 808 until I started adding up all the costs. So here was my math:

Electric:

One Steering Servo $100
Monster Mamba Max ESC $180
Neu Motor $220
2 or 3 GOOD batteries 4S 5000+ MAH $225 Each = $450 to $675
Elec Conversion kit $150
Nice 4S Charger + Power Supply if needed + Balancer = $220

Total: $1320 to $1570

Nitro:

Two Servos $200
Good Engine $350
Pipe $125
2 cases of Fuel $230
Reciever Battery $50
Starter/Glow Plugs/Glow starter $150

Total Cost $1115

Now you guys will complain about the batteries, but honestly, it all depends on the race times you are trying to make. If you have four times 5 minute qualifiers a 20 minute main and only have 15 minutes between races you will be hard pressed to do all that on one battery. You can only charge these so fast. But that has alot of variables...times between races size of your battery, quality of your battery (ie high C ratings), and time of racing. But Even if you can do it all with one battery, you will probably want atleast one spare incase one starts to puff up. And I went on the cheap side with the charger setting it at MAX 4S capable...Once you go to 5S and 6S batteries and a charger you are talking about more money. Close to and over $300 a battery if you get good brand name batteries.

It seems like the Nitro guys spend a little money over time (ie Fuel and plugs, once a year a engine), but Electric guys will spend large amounts over long period of time (ie New batteries, ESC). But it all depends on who takes care of their gear the best...So this is probably a wash.


And yes, I race Nitro right now. I have a B44 and have been running electric cars for about 10 years. I do like electric, but Nitro is fun also. I think that once the battery prices go down for the large MAH high "C" Lipo packs, then more people will convert. I just didnt want people to think that electric is cheap, or alot cheaper then Nitro. Overtime they probably make it a wash, but I still believe that electric has a higher startup cost.

Anyways, I am sure I will get some flames for this!!!
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:07 PM   #52
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On your list of things to buy for nitro ,wouldnt you need a recv. batt. charger ?thats about another $100.00 and also clutch shoe replacement over time can cost some $$$ .I think that they are around the same cost . Just is a matter of what your into . I see elec. 1/8th coming around the corner very fast ,I see and hear alot of interest in the 1/8th elec. offroad more and more .
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:13 PM   #53
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I don't think nitro went up enough to convert to electric. Also given the fact that the Lipo can be overloaded and bubble, even catch a fire, the BL motors are subject to overheating if not geared properly and they also have bearings that wearout or windings that can be overheated along with the ESC. In the long run, both electric and nitro will most likely cost the same IMO.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:28 PM   #54
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I did this comparison a while back.....(before I even ran my 1/8th electric conversion)

NitroMBX5R_vs_ElectricMBX5R_cost
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by TonysScrews View Post
I did this comparison a while back.....(before I even ran my 1/8th electric conversion)

NitroMBX5R_vs_ElectricMBX5R_cost
Very good and detailed list, Thanks for sharing!!

The only thing is that you only have one battery, and its 4S. So if you add in another battery, or go to 5S or 6S batteries and a charger to support 5S or 6S will be more money and you will have to replace a battery probably every once in a while, also you have the old Castle Creations ESC on there for 115 and the new one is 180.....BUT you will be spending more money on Fuel/Glow Plugs/Clutch parts on the Nitro and you will be buying a new engine every 1 or 2 seasons. So I think it all pretty much equals out....atleast until they start to get the Lipo's price down, as that is the high dollar item, just like the nitro engine is for the Nitro guys. And just like a Engine, depending on how well you take care of the batteries is how long they will last... As I said before, I think it will probably be equal at the end of the day.

I would race whatever they are racing in my area (Currently Nitro)...Although I think it is a little unfair to have the electric guys run with the Nitro's, hard to beat those instant torque electric motors!!!
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:34 PM   #56
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People who are die-hard nitro fanatics are going to have to MOVE ON. Simply put.

This goes on to even full scale. Those stubborn gas burning guys of the past who think the noise and smell are what automotive enthusiasm is all about are going to have to get over it and move on! I'm sure they grew up with that stuff and are used to it, but the fact of the matter is that the basis of everything, the earth, can't take it anymore!! In 50 years they better damn well not expect to be driving a petrol burning machine, rather they will be driving probably an electric car, hopefully.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:00 PM   #57
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Well, I have raced electric for many years, and nitro for the last 1.5 years.

I remember years ago, electric and nitro doing a demo at a car show and I remember being surprised that the top nitro guy was just as quick as us. The other thing that happened though was that masses of people would come over and watch as soon as they heard the Nitros fire up, then promptly leave when they finished, not knowing that electrics were even racing !!!

Magazines started pushing nitro about this time (so don't complain about them pushing electric now), and of course they have become very popular, mainly because people can relate to them. This probably took a chunk out of electric racing to begin with, but I think electric owes a lot to the Nitro craze, because they have increased the popularity of the hobby as a whole, and certainly there are towns that wouldn't have been big enough to support a track before, that can now, and electric is back almost as big as it was before.

I think 1/8th Electric has a place if the track is too blown out for 1/10th electric, but otherwise, if money is a concern, run 1/10th, save even more.
a 1/10th scale holds the track record lap at our track by 7/10ths over the quickest 1/8th and I am 3/10ths quicker in 1/10th than 1/8th (and this is a seriously BIG track)
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:04 PM   #58
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People who are die-hard nitro fanatics are going to have to MOVE ON. Simply put.

This goes on to even full scale. Those stubborn gas burning guys of the past who think the noise and smell are what automotive enthusiasm is all about are going to have to get over it and move on! I'm sure they grew up with that stuff and are used to it, but the fact of the matter is that the basis of everything, the earth, can't take it anymore!! In 50 years they better damn well not expect to be driving a petrol burning machine, rather they will be driving probably an electric car, hopefully.
Are you talking about an oil shortage or global warming or both? Because neither one is true!
Our gas prices have nothing to do with supply, it's all based on highly exaggerated prices from oil speculation and most reputable scientists that aren't getting global warming grant money agree that global warming is total BS. Granted we should take as good of care of the earth as we can and conserve every bit of energy as we can. The earth can't take it anymore?! What in the hell are you going to do with all of your LiPo packs when you are done with them? Neither choice here is very "Earth friendly" if you are highly in tune with that scene now is it? I don't understand what your point is. It is not simply put at all. Doesn't have much to do with anything.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:09 PM   #59
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If fuel prices are to high for your budget your in the wrong hobby..especially if your running 1/8th scale..anything..
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Old 07-18-2008, 07:32 AM   #60
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Very good and detailed list, Thanks for sharing!!

The only thing is that you only have one battery, and its 4S. So if you add in another battery, or go to 5S or 6S batteries and a charger to support 5S or 6S will be more money and you will have to replace a battery probably every once in a while, also you have the old Castle Creations ESC on there for 115 and the new one is 180.....BUT you will be spending more money on Fuel/Glow Plugs/Clutch parts on the Nitro and you will be buying a new engine every 1 or 2 seasons. So I think it all pretty much equals out....atleast until they start to get the Lipo's price down, as that is the high dollar item, just like the nitro engine is for the Nitro guys. And just like a Engine, depending on how well you take care of the batteries is how long they will last... As I said before, I think it will probably be equal at the end of the day.

I would race whatever they are racing in my area (Currently Nitro)...Although I think it is a little unfair to have the electric guys run with the Nitro's, hard to beat those instant torque electric motors!!!
Thanks. I did that list back in December of 2007 so yeah some things have changed. But the MM ESC is actually very good for 1/8th electric on 4S or even 5S. I have one of each. I like that the MM is smaller and lighter, but you have to mod it with some cooling holes and a fan. The MMM is more robust for the application though.

Here are some more thoughts for comparison that I will have to add and re-publish that article......

I also only included one battery as I only used one case of fuel. Realistically most would have two battery packs but you can certainly get away with one. You would just have to wait while you charged it to run it again (approx one hour on most packs. Some new cells are coming out now that you can charge at a 2C rating so the charge time may get reduced).

I figured if you get 32 tanks of fuel out of one gallon and have four gallons that is 128 runs on a full tank (figure about 8-1/2 minutes per tank). With the battery 128 runs would use up about 1/2 the batteries life span but would yield double the run time (about 17 minutes on a charge). So if we really wanted to compare nitro fuel to a LiPo pack it would take 4 cases of fuel (or 16 gallons) to equal the life of one LiPo pack.

On the motor side....The brushless motor would certainly last that long but on the nitro engine side you would be a very good tuner and take good care of your stuff if you can get through 4 cases of fuel on even two motors. I've never seen anyone run 4 cases on a single motor without a rebuild. Most guys do not do rebuilds and they just buy a new motor. From what I see around here in the NorthEast most guys would go through 3-4 motors on 4 cases (16 gallons) of fuel. That's why the long term costs are much cheaper in the long run with the electric conversions. But as I pointed out above, with nitro the fun never ends. You can burn tank after tank,while an electric guy has to wait to charge his packs or have a few bucks tied up into packs where he can swap them out.

Both classes are a LOT of FUN and I don't see either class going anywhere. I see both of them continuing to grow.

To get back on track though...As for the reason this thread was started, I do not see that many guys giving up nitro just because the price of nitro fuel has gone up in some parts. This nitromethane shortage is only a short temporary thing and the prices are going to come back down anyways. BUT, even if it did cost $50 a gallon, I honestly can't see that many guys giving up their nitro cars. What I do see is a lot of nitro guys may want to have one of each and will enjoy them BOTH.

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