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Old 06-11-2008, 06:43 AM   #91
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20 years ago it was explained to me that everyone had their own Main to race in. Qualifying was used to group you with drivers of like skill level. Whats changed? The only thing that I can see is now NO recognition is given for the winners of the lower mains, except in some races they are allowed to bump up.

The top two or three in each main used to be recognized after the race by name or with ribbons, coupons, trophies in some races, etc. no longer happens. Why? Are we all so busy that there is no time after the race, is it too much trouble, does anybody care?

Just some thoughts.

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Old 06-11-2008, 06:57 AM   #92
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I wonder if Nascar would let me try and qualify my Hobby Stock car at the next Sprint Cup race. Wouldn't be no different then running a Ofna Violator at Nats would it
no becouse your hobby stock dose not meet any rules for the sprint cup race, thats a realy bad compearison, lets look at something realistic. how about taking a 360 sprint car to the world of outlaws to race, ive seen it done many times. they dont have all the trick parts or high power motors,

I would say 80% of the time you get faster and better racing with pros, think, if you run sportsmen and are wining all the time, your not being pushed to make your car handle better, or go faster,
if you realy have a problem with roar talk to some one with roar, or dont run there races, just makes one less car for everyone els have to pass,
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:02 AM   #93
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how about if we do this, give everyone a picture and a tropy saying they are the winner......what is this tiny tot racing where everyone has to get a hug and feel good about themselves....

i have been racig for 20 years the croud i race with now is full fo sponsored guys, i dont beat them, i go have fun and race.....i do not go expecting to win i go expecting to do my best and have a good time....

come on guys let get with it....
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:37 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by mr. losi View Post
.....i do not go expecting to win i go expecting to do my best and have a good time....
come on guys let get with it....
Exactly!
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:00 AM   #95
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Jesse - Why is it bogus if he runs other equipment? You don't stand to lose anything if he runs a different chassis. It doesn't affect you in any way.

Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.

Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?

Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?

It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
Great post!
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:03 AM   #96
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Jesse - Why is it bogus if he runs other equipment? You don't stand to lose anything if he runs a different chassis. It doesn't affect you in any way.

Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.

Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?

Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?

It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
+1
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:19 AM   #97
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I've been following and reading this thread for days...and thought about it quite a lot.... and honestly it's pretty much, albeit on a different level, the same complaints I've heard over the years at the club racing level all the way up to and including the Nats.

Having been a competitive golfer in addition to a pretty decent real (1:1) race car driver in my day I saw or heard the same kind of comments or complaints - and generally they came from three camps: the inexperienced, the underskilled, and/or those that weren't going to get any better.

And being a former factory sponsored driver, that came up through the ranks of being a privateer and then a local hobby shop sponsored driver to getting a full ride - I understand the complaints, and yet again don't.

To me the biggest rub in all of this is that too many people take up a hobby (note the use of the word hobby, i.e. they're not intending on making a living at it) do so apparently with some false expectation that they're going to be the next Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, Joel Johnson, Jay Hawlsey, Ryan Cavalieri or Mike Truhe. And these are many of the ones that quit the hobby soon after taking it up because they can't break 100, let alone 70 - or get tired of being lapped by the field and/or somehow embarrassed that they're once again running in the Q-main (and not even winning it).

And so it just seems to me that people have high expectations, not that there's anything wrong with that, but devastated by and/or not cognizant of their lack of ability that they either quit what was initially supposed to be fun (and likely was) all because they can't win.

I had a guy come up to me last winter, congratulate me for a win, and in the same breath ask me what he's got to do to beat me. I told him to practice more to get better and maybe not wreck as much (he finished 2 laps down). He said he'd been doing it for a while and bought all the best of equipment. When I asked how long, he replied 2 or 3 years. And he was shocked when I told him he should be happy about even making the A-main, and he'd only just now started earning his dues.

And then I see this preoccupation with winning, or the perception of winning, in parents today that insist their local little league give out "competitor" trophies to the kids that don't win. Why? Because everyone wants to be a winner, or they don't want their child to feel like their not.... but the simple truth is we solve nothing by giving every dadgum person that shows up at the race a little "I WAS A COMPETITOR AT THE U.S. NATS -2008" plaque.
And why?
Because, in all fairness of reality, in comparison the person the wins the A-Main would then be deserved of a 10-freaking-foot-tall monstrosity of a trophy that wouldn't even fit in their house let alone their Honda to get it home!!!

For all intents and purposes the ROAR U.S. Nationals is comparative to the U.S. Open in golf. An event that literally anyone can get into, but few have even a slightest chance in winning. And frankly it's my opinion that ROAR has no more business having a "sportsman class" than the USGA needs to have a "weekend hackers/sportsman" class this weekend at Torrey Pines.

All that being said I'm just going to leave it with the idea that I'd also given much thought to having different classes for the pro drivers and the amateurs.
I used to hear the complaints back in the day when I'd show up at a club race and all the locals would whine, despite the fact I'd never accept a trophy and insist the track owners kick them back to the next finishers, so I understand where people are coming from. But the only problem with the separating the pros and the amateurs or sportsman is HOW to differentiate between them. Sure, it's easy to spot the bigger names and better known drivers - but with the proper funding or local hobby shop support plenty of lesser knowns get nearly (or just as much) support as the factory boys.
Heck, some kid with an engineer for a father could realistically have better stuff than a factory-backed ride (and if I remember my history correctly, wasn't that how Gil Losi Jr. came to the forefront, his dad making custom bits for Ultimas and RC10s before the first JrX or XXX-T ever got mass-produced?).
So what do you suggest, are we going to require that each competitor sign some sort of waiver alleging at least some level of suck-dom, or do you then kick some new kid out of the sportsman class just because he’s good or his dad has deep pockets? The argument is a bit of a slippery slope to nowhere.



The point of all of it is that it's racing, just racing, and nothing more. If you don't want to run with the big boys stay on the porch, if you want to whine about having to run with the big boys maybe you should stay there too - but if you want to see how you stack up against the big boys and the hundreds of others from all over the U.S. (and the world) then show up, do your best - and just like a load of laundry hope all your stains work out in the wash. Who knows where the next special talent might come from………
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:27 AM   #98
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Jesse - Why is it bogus if he runs other equipment? You don't stand to lose anything if he runs a different chassis. It doesn't affect you in any way.
sure it does...

i personally dont, but certain individuals believe what most of these racers say or do. If they go about and brag about their product, say its great, tell the manufacturer they will sport such part/engine/whatever in such race, then at the race, swap out such part for whatever else they run.

if the average person doesnt know any better, they will buy such product and in all reality its not cracked up to what its suppose to be...its called false advertisement!

why do they run for such companies? why do they get paid to run such products? is it to just collect the bills?

im trying to get a better understanding, none of which makes sense to me, you dont see Carl Edwards tossing in a hendricks engine at the last minute, or changing out his car, shocks, for any other name brand before a race...same deal with Jeff Gordon, they sport what they rep.

i dont know, maybe it doesnt matter what they run or who they run for as long as they win.

double standards in just about any form of racing i guess lol god forbid if your oil cap gets loose lmao
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:37 AM   #99
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and im not too sure you are getting what i am trying to say, i have zero problems with people drilling out chassis, diffs or running different fuels with less oil content..

thats something we all can do, without the expense of your boss that you run for.

my problem is that some of these guys run that their company doesnt even manufacture, and wont run what they do manufacture. so basically all they are doing is sporting the name, nothing else!

that is bogus.

definition of false advertisement: Describing goods, services, or real property in a misleading fashion!
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Last edited by Jesse; 06-11-2008 at 08:38 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:42 AM   #100
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I didn't read all of this, but I would like to see them run whats in their "pro kit" straight from the factory and see what happens.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:49 AM   #101
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exactly, its misleading to even say "pro kit" if they still need to swap major parts out that dont even come with the kit...thats my point.

making holes, doing your own mods to the kit that can be told to other owners to do is no big deal..but swapping out major parts that is not included within the kit or is not even manufactured by the company or companies you run for makes no sense to me at all.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:54 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
exactly, its misleading to even say "pro kit" if they still need to swap major parts out that dont even come with the kit...thats my point.

making holes, doing your own mods to the kit that can be told to other owners to do is no big deal..but swapping out major parts that is not included within the kit or is not even manufactured by the company or companies you run for makes no sense to me at all.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:01 AM   #103
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I love where oldschoolracer is coming from, i also like the point in the post before about 10 minutes after the races... personally i want to put a face to the guy just kicked my arse all round the track and see him get a round of applause, or the guy that was hounding my back all the way or the guy that went four straight bumps to take the A... you get my drift.

On the equipment envy... it's not like we are talking tens of thousands of dollars for top end equipment here to run with the pro's. Practice, practice practice, experience and more practice and if you want to take it that far... paying the dues before paying the rent.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:02 AM   #104
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I agree that today Many people feel as though they need to win something to be Validated.

I remember when I was 13 I begged my dad to take me to a BIG race. I wanted to see how I stacked up against all the pro's and everyone in the nation for that matter at a "Big" race. We went to Detroit which was a huge event in the late 90's. My first big race ever and I finished 2nd in the E-main, which was about mid-pack. I was excited. There wasn't a separation of classes it was just everyone all together. I couldn't wait to go back the following year and try my hand at it again to see how much I could improve.

Well we went back the following year (1999), and I qualified at the top of the B-main. Mind you the top 30 or so drivers were "full factory" and I was just a privateer 14 y/o kid. I bumped out of the B-main and in the A-main was running at the top. The announcer gave me a stop and go in the main because I "roosted" a marshal. (The track was loamy). Anyways they didn't want some no-name privateer winning the event. I was able to manage 2nd place, only 5 seconds behind Doug Von Mosh after a 1hr. long main. I believe I ran only 1 or maybe 2 sets of tires the whole weekend. I remember the 'pro' guys having all this cool equipment and all i had is what my dad could afford. We went (garbage picking) after the event to get the one run tires that the 'pro's' were throwing away.

The size of this event was comparable to Silver State nowadays. Most people here would believe if they were to finish 2nd at a Silver State Caliber race that they would get sponsorships and deals out the wazoo. That wasn't the case at all. I was offered 50% deals from Mugen and Kyosho. Thing was my dad had a hobby shop so it wasn't much of a "deal" so to speak.

The one thing that I had going for me was that my dad was very experienced in R/C and was Anal about maintenance. My car Never fell apart with his handiwork. I believe maintenance is much more crucial than any set-up ever will be in 1/8th gas at least.

Moral is, even at that young of an age I didn't expect to win and all I wanted to do was see how I stacked up against the best of the best.

The people complaining that a ROAR National, (The most prestigious race we have going here in the U.S.A) should have a sportsman class is ludicrous.

A Club race is for anyone and everyone
A regional event is for those wanting to test there skills against the best in their region
A National event is for those wanting to test there skills against the best in the NATION.

If you go to a National event and you don't believe you have a chance to win then I feel you should be going there to either see how you stack up against the best. Or, go there with the mindset to talk with the 'pro's' and learn everything you can and watch them drive and learn lines and improve yourself to be the best you can.

I feel racing is already getting too diluted. I was so excited to make the worlds team for this year. Getting to race against the 150 best in the World. Like it's been for Decades! But due to seemingly poor guidelines and more and more people feeling like they deserve to be there, now it's like 216 entries or something. To me it's loosing it's prestige. I'll still go and I'll still enjoy it, believe me, I just feel like grandeur of the event has been sapped a little bit.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. Just felt like getting my vent on for a bit!
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:04 AM   #105
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and i cant believe people are still trying to say we need a sportsman class at the nats...

i wish i could have attended the nats, i would have really liked to see how well i stack up and or how well i could have done if it be in the Z main so what!

just rip!
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