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Old 06-11-2008, 11:41 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Aaron Waldron View Post
Since when has RC EVER been about recognition and achievement?

I don't know about most of the people reading this thread, but I started racing - and still race - because it was fun. I enjoy spending time at the track with people who share the same hobby, I like traveling to races and seeing new cities and meeting new hobbyists. And I like playing with toy cars. If that's the wrong mindset, please enlighten me.

I haven't won anything in years (RC Pro Series race at Hemet in...2005, I think?). Heck, I've made A-Mains at some of the biggest races in the country, but finished 11th in the 15-car main and the race promoter only gave trophies out for the top 10. Is that enough for me to want my own class? Or to create a production rule? Hardly. I didn't become a toy car racer to achieve some sort of success, to feel like I accomplished something. That's not what it's about.

The need to feel accepted and accomplished, and to find success in this small world of ours is killing the racing segment of our hobby.
+1
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:43 AM   #152
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HookMega ~
I think the point in all of this is that without factory involvement in any form of motorsports there is no real motivating factor to improve the existing product. And in that sense RC racing differs little from their larger cousins in that the bigger teams, the factory drivers, get the good stuff first. This can be good and bad. In one sense they are the guneia pigs in testing and racing, and they are also the first ones to find out something works fine on the test track and is worthless on a rutted racetrack - so sometimes it works out in their favor and sometimes it doesn't.

But fact of the matter is that without this real-world, real-time, racing conditions testing products will not move forward -- and you'd be running the same old alumi-tub RC10 we were back in the '80s (with the crappy tranny), or maybe you would have upgraded to a carbon fiber chassis plate (but wouldn't have known that it needed a stiffener to keep it from snap-flexing, that got found out through years of racing), or maybe you would have been still running Losi expandable-joint cvds (that it took two years of racing to figure out that they didn't work), or there would have been no motivation for a company like TeamPitStop to invent the slipper clutch (and you guys would still be battling trying to make your cars stop spinning donuts).

Anyway, the point is that racing improves the breed, improves the product, and leads to the ever-morphing of cars and parts. Without it..... we'd all still be running Tamaiya Frogs.

But thinking it would be as easy as having a Sportsman class for the average Joe and a Pro class for the factory racers, then what would stop someone (like Gil Losi and his dad did) from upgrading their kit car (giving the same parts to a bunch of their buddies if they wanted) into a world-beater and still beat the bejesus out of the ordinary guy?

Sure rules should be in place to keep things fair, but rules are already in place. But rules can only address so many things, and outlawing something just because it's as a result of someone thinking outside the box (figuratively and not literally, of course) eliminates the idea of improving or trying to make something work better.

+1 thats the reason we are all enjoying 1/8th due to the vast array of kits available and its the technology both on and off track which has made it possible for the production at the costs they sell at.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:44 AM   #153
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:48 AM   #154
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I still have my gold tub rc10 with the crappy trans and no slipper conversion LOL.. I'm going to go get it out.. Maybe I'll even break out the old original jrx2 with the h bar rear suspension wow I forgot all about those... I'm gonna go play..
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:55 AM   #155
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Now to the others and you'll know who you are - Do you not realize that there are children in this hobby and to them it should be fun. Do you really think that rc racing should teach them some life lesson about humility? Or is it that you need to feed your own ego by making sure you know you beat a 12 year old... Yes there are winners and there are loosers but when your dealing with children you need to have a bit of understanding that they need nurturing.. Say what you want but when your doing that remember that there are young ones around either at the track or here on this forum and you might push them away from this hobby and that is not helpfull in any way.
If they're racing they're entering a competitin - plain and simple.
If they're not old enough to understand the difference, or feel some need to be recognized for being a child, then either they don't need to do it (to save their own egos or precious self esteem), or their daddys need to chip in to buy them a cookie on the way home.
The other racers at the track are not responsible for nurturing your child.

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man when have i ever asked for something for nothing im not moaning about what the pros run or anything else for that matter im sticking up for joe average, they pay their entries just the same
If they pay their entry fee, then the get to race. That's all you're promised for plunking down your dough.

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Originally Posted by slow coach View Post
Since when has RC EVER been about recognition and achievement?

perhaps the young lad at your local club running on his pocket money whos thinking of giving up cause of his funds, but wait at the last meeting he was recognised as the highest placed junior and for his achievement won some tyres and now he can race for a few more meets before having to worry again, that was an example not fact ok get that straight first.
I remember my dear old dad telling me this oft-used expression many many years ago, "If you can't afford to pay, then maybe you shouldn't be playing" - plain and simple.
Facts? It's a fact, again, that it is not the obligation of other racers to nuture your child or anyone else's. You want to nuture them, or get them new treads, so be it - but how dare you expect others to chip in on your own childrearing expenses. I raised my kids, and I'll be damned if I'm going to raise someone elses.


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any sport global is about recognition and achievement or why bother tbh
You have to WIN to expect any global recognition of achievement !
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:09 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by oldschoolracer View Post
If they're racing they're entering a competitin - plain and simple.
If they're not old enough to understand the difference, or feel some need to be recognized for being a child, then either they don't need to do it (to save their own egos or precious self esteem), or their daddys need to chip in to buy them a cookie on the way home.
The other racers at the track are not responsible for nurturing your child.

Hmmm... the 3 or 4 kids at my local track kick my butt every time I race them... no worries there!
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:10 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolracer View Post
If they're racing they're entering a competitin - plain and simple.
If they're not old enough to understand the difference, or feel some need to be recognized for being a child, then either they don't need to do it (to save their own egos or precious self esteem), or their daddys need to chip in to buy them a cookie on the way home.
The other racers at the track are not responsible for nurturing your child.



If they pay their entry fee, then the get to race. That's all you're promised for plunking down your dough.



I remember my dear old dad telling me this oft-used expression many many years ago, "If you can't afford to pay, then maybe you shouldn't be playing" - plain and simple.
Facts? It's a fact, again, that it is not the obligation of other racers to nuture your child or anyone else's. You want to nuture them, or get them new treads, so be it - but how dare you expect others to chip in on your own childrearing expenses. I raised my kids, and I'll be damned if I'm going to raise someone elses.



You have to WIN to expect any global recognition of achievement !
i didnt ask you to raise my children it was an example the only FACT as you put it was to emphasise that it was an EXAMPLE can you read, when you start bringing my own children into this conversation you have stepped over and beyond mate.

i have been to many races with 100+ drivers where every winner of a final gets read out and applauded before the main result does and trophies presented, that is what im on about when i state recognition, if this happened then forgive me but reading other posts in here it appeared that the other finals were passed over in the grandeur of the main, im not after anything material financial or other for me all i have stated is everyone races as hard as they can z-a final and deserve something even if its that small gesture that Mr A won the z final over the pa and receives a nice round of applause for his result not much really is it.

i agree with your avatar completely it doesnt suit you
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:23 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by DOMIT View Post
This is a GREAT post! I don't see what the big deal is. This is my hobby... I've been racing about a year, just slightly longer. I'm at the bottom of the sportsman class. I don't care if they put me in with the experts or in a separate class, I do this to have fun.
Thank you - and you appear to have a realistic view and a great attitude about racing.

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My one and only complaint about big races is this: I go to a big race, and end up in the zzzzz main or whatever... fine, that's where I belong. But I paid $35-45-55-65-whatever to be there, and get to run a main of 5-10 minutes. (RC Pro increased the lower mains this year to a whopping 8 minutes!) It almost makes me want to just club race and not bother with the bigger events... Let's add it up: $25 for membership (RC Pro, yes, a little off topic, but it compares nicely) + $45 a race for the points series (to run 8 minute mains, + 4 5 minute heats) + $65 for the finals (to run 4 5 minute heats and an 8 minute main...) $200 in race entries and membership for 112 minutes of racing... $1.79 per minute, sounds like one of those 1-900 numbers. This of course doesn't count the costs to travel TO those races... gas, hotel, etc.
I hear what you're saying. ..... while at the same time it makes me want to equate the cost of each shot I make playing golf relative to the cost of my membership at the country club (but it's silly) ...... I'll just suggest that it's a hard way to quantify things.
I more tend to equate that membership costs are spread out over the year ($1.50 a month = diddly), $45 for a race weekend (what can you do all weekend for 45 bucks? going golfing Sat. & Sun. costs me more than that), traveling costs involved with attending larger events are up to each individual person (i.e. the choice of club racing vs. larger series racing) to find the value or not in doing so.

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Don't get me wrong, I have a good time at these events. I just thing I should be getting a little more run time for my dollar. I'm not saying all mains should be the same length... just that the lower mains should be long enough to allow for real racing... including pit strategy (I didn't have to pit in my last main) time to make up for a tangle at the start, etc. I personally think 15 minutes isn't unreasonable. Yes, it would add 2 hours to the day of the mains. So? The fast guys run later... sorry if that bothers them, but I stay to clap for them and show support during awards, hours and hours after I'm done for the day... bust my butt as a volunteer marshal... help with track repairs... They can certainly allow me an extra 7 minutes of run time.
A couple of things I don't think you're taking to mind is that adding (at least)
two hours to an already long day (Sunday) is tantmount for begging for a disaster (or a mutiny). Events already have a hard enough time getting people to hang around to the end, I guess you're one of the few exceptions.
The other thing is that especially with larger events, that deteriorating track conditions plague the later runners. Yes, I know repairs are done throughout the day (cuddos for volunteering) - but they don't ever come close to getting it back to the shape it's in at the beginning of the day when the Q-main runs. Adding time to each main just accentuates the problem faced by track operators and race organizers and often turn the A's into a battle of attrition when they wouldn't if not for the earlier mains - espcially if they're extended - with the deep ruts anbd holes that develop and never go away or get totally fixed.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:25 PM   #159
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Hmmm... the 3 or 4 kids at my local track kick my butt every time I race them... no worries there!
ROFLMAO......
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:29 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by slow coach View Post
all i have stated is everyone races as hard as they can z-a final and deserve something even if its that small gesture that Mr A won the z final over the pa and receives a nice round of applause for his result not much really is it.
all the tracks ive been to that happens, and then if theres a bump up they and usaly talked about more during that next race, thats come down to the guy on the mic doing a good job,
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:30 PM   #161
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All the lower mains were 20 mintes at the buggy nats this year.

Ed M.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:37 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by viper0463 View Post
They can ban me from posting after this I really don't care!!!!

Oldschoolracer - Your an Ass.... I don't have children but what I was saying is that there needs to be a little compasion directed towards them at the track... If your to much of a macho man to realize that then maybe you should just get out the rubber hose and beat them when they lose.. That would teach them right... How hard is it for you to understand what others are saying... Are you that much of an arrogant bastard that you can't understand that to keep this hobby alive we will need these children.. Yes I've now made a personal attact and I'm done with this thread and forum.. It's people like you that keep people away from the hobby.. Now go get em Reese Bobby..
Why?
They can run in the kiddie class, many tracks have them - otherwise it's not my or anyone else's responsibility to worry about them or their precious feelings.
On the driver's stand everyone's supposed to be wearing big boy pants.

Check me if this "arrogant bastard ass is wrong," but from what I've read this hobby is supported almost in its entirety sans a few pennies here and there through the wallets and credit cards of adults. If daddys want to put their kids on the track, and allow them to pursue their interest of the moment that's their business and none of my concern. Whether they continue any lifelong interest in this hobby will have a lot more to do with what they're interested in as adults than what they play with as kids (and that's speaking as someone that's raised a family).

In the great words of Aaron Waldron posted above - "The need to feel accepted and accomplished, and to find success in this small world of ours is killing the racing segment of our hobby."
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:50 PM   #163
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i didnt ask you to raise my children it was an example the only FACT as you put it was to emphasise that it was an EXAMPLE can you read, when you start bringing my own children into this conversation you have stepped over and beyond mate.

i have been to many races with 100+ drivers where every winner of a final gets read out and applauded before the main result does and trophies presented, that is what im on about when i state recognition, if this happened then forgive me but reading other posts in here it appeared that the other finals were passed over in the grandeur of the main, im not after anything material financial or other for me all i have stated is everyone races as hard as they can z-a final and deserve something even if its that small gesture that Mr A won the z final over the pa and receives a nice round of applause for his result not much really is it.

i agree with your avatar completely it doesnt suit you
YOU were the one that brought children into the discussion, not I.
And frankly, you talked like one of those parents of children that believe kids deserve stupid "football competitor" trophies so they don't fell left out for not winning. I only used the phrase "nuture your child or anyone else's," if you'd read slowly and comprehend instead of being quick to anger, as an EXAMPLE as well.

As far as "recognizing" lower mains winners on the PA system before the final main results are announced, that happens all the time all over. If it's a large nationals event in which there are 500 entrants, then maybe not. But we're used to larger National events on this side of the pond, and maybe that's where your misunderstanding comes in.

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Old 06-11-2008, 01:01 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by oldschoolracer View Post
I hear what you're saying. ..... while at the same time it makes me want to equate the cost of each shot I make playing golf relative to the cost of my membership at the country club (but it's silly) ...... I'll just suggest that it's a hard way to quantify things.
I more tend to equate that membership costs are spread out over the year ($1.50 a month = diddly), $45 for a race weekend (what can you do all weekend for 45 bucks? going golfing Sat. & Sun. costs me more than that), traveling costs involved with attending larger events are up to each individual person (i.e. the choice of club racing vs. larger series racing) to find the value or not in doing so.
Well... my other hobby is priced by the hour (no, not talking about those darned 1-900 numbers again...) so it makes sense to me to do so. I can go to these races, be a spectator, and pit for my buds, and save that money... sure, travel cost is still there... but I'll have nearly as much fun (had a great time at the finals, and was just there to pit for the guys) without spending as much. Entry, parts, tires, fuel... By the same token I can go rent a 7GCBC Citabria for $98 per hour wet, and have more fun with that. (And I DO consider "fun per dollar..." I can rent a Cessena 152 for a LOT less, but the Citabria has more value in fun factor.)

Quote:
A couple of things I don't think you're taking to mind is that adding (at least)
two hours to an already long day (Sunday) is tantmount for begging for a disaster (or a mutiny). Events already have a hard enough time getting people to hang around to the end, I guess you're one of the few exceptions.
Well, I have friends that are usually running in those later mains... so I guess I have a good reason to be there...

Quote:
The other thing is that especially with larger events, that deteriorating track conditions plague the later runners. Yes, I know repairs are done throughout the day (cuddos for volunteering) - but they don't ever come close to getting it back to the shape it's in at the beginning of the day when the Q-main runs. Adding time to each main just accentuates the problem faced by track operators and race organizers and often turn the A's into a battle of attrition when they wouldn't if not for the earlier mains - espcially if they're extended - with the deep ruts anbd holes that develop and never go away or get totally fixed.
Hmmmm... the last races I've been to, the track IMPROVED throughout the day, starting out dry and dusty and turning into a very nice "blue groove" by the end of the day. Ruts and bumps? ummmm... this IS offroad racing!

As for the day being too long... Of course if none of us 8-minute-main racers shows up, the day is a lot shorter too... perhaps we shouldn't be there at all? This is my point exactly... I'm paying to allow this big race to happen, so the A main can be 45 minutes or an hour, and I get to run 8 minutes? It's about fun more than competition... although both are elements of the hobby. I'm saying I don't get enough for my money to be worth it. I am seriously considering skipping the OKC round of RC Pro for this reason. I haven't signed up yet, haven't renewed my membership... and I'm not sure if I will.

This is also probably a big part of the reason that some of the faster guys won't "step up" to expert... because they'll only get to run little short mains since they won't make the A.

The Nitro Invitational that we just ran had 15 minute lower mains... the day was fine (granted, it was a smaller race, less entries) and I enjoyed the chance to run long enough to "settle in" and drive better... the pit stops added to the entertainment... (I changed cars since the last "big" race... same motor, but I can drive this one harder so my runtime suffers, had to pit twice to be sure I didn't run out.) It also made me realize what a bad "deal" the other races are. That one was $35 for a 2-day event, with BBQ dinner provided, no membership needed (well, I guess you have to be a Texan lol) and I got to run a 15 minute main...

If these promoters want to encourage the hobby, they need to even out the fun factor... your quote about "if you wanna play you have to pay" makes sense... so why should I pay more to play (by the time allotted) than the other guy does?
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:04 PM   #165
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As far as "recognizing" lower mains winners on the PA system before the final main results are announced, that happens all the time all over.
Not at hardly any of the races that I have attended in the last several years. The announcer might list the the top three right as the race is ending but thats it, never to be mentioned again. And that was the point of my earlier post, no need for division into pro/sportsman, everyone has their own main, decided by qualifying order, because they are running with like drivers in the main, their MAIN, where ever it is they belong..............ZZ or A.

And as far as bumping up, go for it, I love to pull for someone on a tear, especially if its their first time doing it.

Ed M.
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