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Old 06-11-2008, 11:01 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by slow coach View Post
im not talking club races and not for me personally either im talking big races like the nats should recognice the achievements of all the finals winners
I've never heard of ANY racing organization that awards a prize to, or formally recognizes, anyone for finishing 50th.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:02 AM   #137
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You want recognition of an acheivement - WIN SOMETHING !!!
You want pointless recognition, go take your GED test and stand in line for the certifcate of recognition.

But blurring the line between actual acheivement and just participating muddies the water of true competition and is ridiculous.
ive won plenty friend but please can you define the difference between achievement and participation to un-muddy the water, for me had i been able to even contemplate entereing the nats to qualify for any main and win it would be classed as an achievement, the people i would of raced with would of been similar ability and the race would of been great, but then perhaps i was just participating so the A final could exist, perhaps my posts have been misinterpreted as they are off topic somewhat and i apologise for that but the attitudes towards the lower finals by some is somewhat poor tbh.

So to get on topic for the thread the Nats should be open anything goes
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:04 AM   #138
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I started in Electric. And there were seperate classes. They were 4whl Mod, 2whl Mod and 2whl Stock. I went to my first Nats in 1988 and was in the O in Stock and the R in Modified. The mains went all the way down to I think the FF or GG not sure but was alot. Over the next year I practiced as much as possible and was 2nd qualy in the B in Mod and Won the Stock A main with 620 total entries in 3 classes.

Now adays everyone wants special classes so that they can win something. The only way I got better was racing against Cliff Lett, Jay Halsey, Jack Johnson, Mark Pavidis, Rick Hohwart, Gil Losi to name a few.

I remember this kid that started racing in Monster Truck class and he wanted to know how to get better. I started helping him out as much as possible. I told him you have to race against the best and not just in the Novice classes. I told him to step up and run in either stock or modified. I gave him my extra motors and tires that were used and used parts to fix his cars. I helped him to learn how to work on his cars and learn how to set them up. He eventually got better and just raced modified. And now Brian Kinwald is one of the best drivers in the history of our Hobby just by practicing and wanting to be better than anyone else.

If you wanna be good at something the only way to get better is to practice, practice, practice. When I was an Indycar mechanic we practiced pitstops at the shop everday. Then we did them at the track. So when it came down to crunch time for the race it was actually easy.

So everyone quit your whinning and start practicing.

I used to use springs from other companies on my RC10 and I used to modify my chassis. Some things that no one else did. I also used parts that weren't made anymore should I not be able to use those parts now just because you can't get them?

Ask yourselves what you are actually whinning about? You're not as good as you thought you were is what it boils down to. There probably wasn't a set up sheet that you could download to get the right set up for the rough track. Figure it out for yourself.

Just my 169 cents worth.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:07 AM   #139
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Just going to the Nats and racing, regardless of finishing position in an achievement and a great experience. Just because you don't get a trophy, and nobody talks about what a great run you had online, does not mean that what you accomplished was not an achievement.

I think that we got off topic here and people are reading too much into it, so with that, I am done with this thread.


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Old 06-11-2008, 11:12 AM   #140
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....please can you define the difference between achievement and participation to un-muddy the water....
Actually participating in the event is the participation answer to your question. At best it results in that you could have won, and at worst that you just showed up.

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Originally Posted by slow coach View Post
for me had i been able to even contemplate entereing the nats to qualify for any main and win it would be classed as an achievement....
To YOU and literally no one else. Pat yourself on the back.

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....perhaps my posts have been misinterpreted as they are off topic somewhat and i apologise for that but the attitudes towards the lower finals by some is somewhat poor tbh.
I doubt they have been misinterpreted at all, because you're pushing the same "I want something for nothing" attitudes that have occupied this thread from the beginning.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:15 AM   #141
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........back to our regularly-scheduled programming..........

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Originally Posted by HookaMega View Post
I just wanted to throw this out there.

Why should factory drivers be allowed to run hop ups, upgrades or an entire chassis kit that is not yet available to the other racers? Most of the main R/C products companies spend countless hours engineering and testing thier products making them faster and more durable. Then the drivers that are sponsored by these companies are aloud to run these products in a ROAR sanctioned event like Nats or Regionals to compete in the same classes for the same points as the average racer.

If the Nats for example had a sportsman class and a factory pro class it would be different. Then the average Joe racer would not be forced to compete against technology that is not available to them.

I dunno but I think the run what you brung setup should be ok for club racing but when your talking about a national or regional event the rules need to dictate a more level playing field. This is no new concept either as this is the case in many other forms of real racing where rules are in force to keep things a bit more even so that budget and access to technology does not so much dictate who competes, finishes or even wins the event.

I just think it is as simple as, if you cannot buy it at your local hobby dealer or even online atleast 90 days prior to the event then it's not legal for that event.

It's becoming too common for companies to use these events to test or show off thier new and improved - soon to be released technology which may or may not create an unfair advantage but none the less opens the door for a very lop-sided playing field.

any thoughts?
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:16 AM   #142
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I've been following and reading this thread for days...and thought about it quite a lot.... and honestly it's pretty much, albeit on a different level, the same complaints I've heard over the years at the club racing level all the way up to and including the Nats.

Having been a competitive golfer in addition to a pretty decent real (1:1) race car driver in my day I saw or heard the same kind of comments or complaints - and generally they came from three camps: the inexperienced, the underskilled, and/or those that weren't going to get any better.

And being a former factory sponsored driver, that came up through the ranks of being a privateer and then a local hobby shop sponsored driver to getting a full ride - I understand the complaints, and yet again don't.

To me the biggest rub in all of this is that too many people take up a hobby (note the use of the word hobby, i.e. they're not intending on making a living at it) do so apparently with some false expectation that they're going to be the next Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, Joel Johnson, Jay Hawlsey, Ryan Cavalieri or Mike Truhe. And these are many of the ones that quit the hobby soon after taking it up because they can't break 100, let alone 70 - or get tired of being lapped by the field and/or somehow embarrassed that they're once again running in the Q-main (and not even winning it).

And so it just seems to me that people have high expectations, not that there's anything wrong with that, but devastated by and/or not cognizant of their lack of ability that they either quit what was initially supposed to be fun (and likely was) all because they can't win.

I had a guy come up to me last winter, congratulate me for a win, and in the same breath ask me what he's got to do to beat me. I told him to practice more to get better and maybe not wreck as much (he finished 2 laps down). He said he'd been doing it for a while and bought all the best of equipment. When I asked how long, he replied 2 or 3 years. And he was shocked when I told him he should be happy about even making the A-main, and he'd only just now started earning his dues.

And then I see this preoccupation with winning, or the perception of winning, in parents today that insist their local little league give out "competitor" trophies to the kids that don't win. Why? Because everyone wants to be a winner, or they don't want their child to feel like their not.... but the simple truth is we solve nothing by giving every dadgum person that shows up at the race a little "I WAS A COMPETITOR AT THE U.S. NATS -2008" plaque.
And why?
Because, in all fairness of reality, in comparison the person the wins the A-Main would then be deserved of a 10-freaking-foot-tall monstrosity of a trophy that wouldn't even fit in their house let alone their Honda to get it home!!!

For all intents and purposes the ROAR U.S. Nationals is comparative to the U.S. Open in golf. An event that literally anyone can get into, but few have even a slightest chance in winning. And frankly it's my opinion that ROAR has no more business having a "sportsman class" than the USGA needs to have a "weekend hackers/sportsman" class this weekend at Torrey Pines.

All that being said I'm just going to leave it with the idea that I'd also given much thought to having different classes for the pro drivers and the amateurs.
I used to hear the complaints back in the day when I'd show up at a club race and all the locals would whine, despite the fact I'd never accept a trophy and insist the track owners kick them back to the next finishers, so I understand where people are coming from. But the only problem with the separating the pros and the amateurs or sportsman is HOW to differentiate between them. Sure, it's easy to spot the bigger names and better known drivers - but with the proper funding or local hobby shop support plenty of lesser knowns get nearly (or just as much) support as the factory boys.
Heck, some kid with an engineer for a father could realistically have better stuff than a factory-backed ride (and if I remember my history correctly, wasn't that how Gil Losi Jr. came to the forefront, his dad making custom bits for Ultimas and RC10s before the first JrX or XXX-T ever got mass-produced?).
So what do you suggest, are we going to require that each competitor sign some sort of waiver alleging at least some level of suck-dom, or do you then kick some new kid out of the sportsman class just because he’s good or his dad has deep pockets? The argument is a bit of a slippery slope to nowhere.



The point of all of it is that it's racing, just racing, and nothing more. If you don't want to run with the big boys stay on the porch, if you want to whine about having to run with the big boys maybe you should stay there too - but if you want to see how you stack up against the big boys and the hundreds of others from all over the U.S. (and the world) then show up, do your best - and just like a load of laundry hope all your stains work out in the wash. Who knows where the next special talent might come from………
This is a GREAT post! I don't see what the big deal is. This is my hobby... I've been racing about a year, just slightly longer. I'm at the bottom of the sportsman class. I don't care if they put me in with the experts or in a separate class, I do this to have fun.

My one and only complaint about big races is this: I go to a big race, and end up in the zzzzz main or whatever... fine, that's where I belong. But I paid $35-45-55-65-whatever to be there, and get to run a main of 5-10 minutes. (RC Pro increased the lower mains this year to a whopping 8 minutes!) It almost makes me want to just club race and not bother with the bigger events... Let's add it up: $25 for membership (RC Pro, yes, a little off topic, but it compares nicely) + $45 a race for the points series (to run 8 minute mains, + 4 5 minute heats) + $65 for the finals (to run 4 5 minute heats and an 8 minute main...) $200 in race entries and membership for 112 minutes of racing... $1.79 per minute, sounds like one of those 1-900 numbers. This of course doesn't count the costs to travel TO those races... gas, hotel, etc.

What happens if guys like me don't race? Then the promoters that put on the races don't make money, and the racing stops...

Don't get me wrong, I have a good time at these events. I just thing I should be getting a little more run time for my dollar. I'm not saying all mains should be the same length... just that the lower mains should be long enough to allow for real racing... including pit strategy (I didn't have to pit in my last main) time to make up for a tangle at the start, etc. I personally think 15 minutes isn't unreasonable. Yes, it would add 2 hours to the day of the mains. So? The fast guys run later... sorry if that bothers them, but I stay to clap for them and show support during awards, hours and hours after I'm done for the day... bust my butt as a volunteer marshal... help with track repairs... They can certainly allow me an extra 7 minutes of run time.

Another thing I'd like to see is a "2 bump" rule. There are sandbaggers that show up and under-qualify just so they can race all day long, taking the bump spots in the lower mains from the "real" sportsman drivers. Cut them off at 2 bumps... even if you win your 3rd main, you're done, and the bump goes to the 2 spots behind you. Could that hurt someone who broke in every heat? Yes... but keeping your equipment working is part of racing.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:20 AM   #143
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GODDAMN, is this post still going?

Thanks to all the soccer moms amd pissed off dads that needed or wanted their kids to be #1. I coached soccer for 1 year (2nd grade). Couldn't believe some of the parents and their pretencious attitudes. " Why didn't my son get the #1 on his jersey", My daughter deserved to be picked first" Give me a break people. Their in 2nd grade. Let them have fun. And yes now this has carried over into adults

My son has done Martial Arts going on 4 years now. He was supposed to get his BlackBelt in May. Guess what, he didn't. He was slacking in a couple of areas. SO WHAT, his loss. This says he needs to work harder. Discipline for some is harder than for others. But in the long run it does pay off.


Point to all of this. Quit whining and put some time on the track..... Run with the best, become one of the best. I will always pick to run with the fastest guys even if I'm always last. Cause one day I won't be
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:21 AM   #144
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I doubt they have been misinterpreted at all, because you're pushing the same "I want something for nothing" attitudes that have occupied this thread from the beginning.
man when have i ever asked for something for nothing im not moaning about what the pros run or anything else for that matter im sticking up for joe average, they pay their entries just the same
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:21 AM   #145
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First to oldschoolracer - no I'm not living in a cave and the reason I posted that was to show how rude of a statement I felt was made.


Now to the others and you'll know who you are - Do you not realize that there are children in this hobby and to them it should be fun. Do you really think that rc racing should teach them some life lesson about humility? Or is it that you need to feed your own ego by making sure you know you beat a 12 year old... Yes there are winners and there are loosers but when your dealing with children you need to have a bit of understanding that they need nurturing.. Say what you want but when your doing that remember that there are young ones around either at the track or here on this forum and you might push them away from this hobby and that is not helpfull in any way.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:23 AM   #146
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Since when has RC EVER been about recognition and achievement?

I don't know about most of the people reading this thread, but I started racing - and still race - because it was fun. I enjoy spending time at the track with people who share the same hobby, I like traveling to races and seeing new cities and meeting new hobbyists. And I like playing with toy cars. If that's the wrong mindset, please enlighten me.

I haven't won anything in years (RC Pro Series race at Hemet in...2005, I think?). Heck, I've made A-Mains at some of the biggest races in the country, but finished 11th in the 15-car main and the race promoter only gave trophies out for the top 10. Is that enough for me to want my own class? Or to create a production rule? Hardly. I didn't become a toy car racer to achieve some sort of success, to feel like I accomplished something. That's not what it's about.

The need to feel accepted and accomplished, and to find success in this small world of ours is killing the racing segment of our hobby.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:32 AM   #147
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Since when has RC EVER been about recognition and achievement?

perhaps the young lad at your local club running on his pocket money whos thinking of giving up cause of his funds, but wait at the last meeting he was recognised as the highest placed junior and for his achievement won some tyres and now he can race for a few more meets before having to worry again, that was an example not fact ok get that straight first.

any sport global is about recognition and achievement or why bother tbh
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:36 AM   #148
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has anybody ever noticed if you put "ROAR" in your title.. you get a heavy viewing and posting response? LOL Right now, as I post this.. this is who is reading this thread:

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I'm not sure thats good or bad but so far.... this is a great marketing strategy somebody came up with......

ok, back to the topic.... I'm interested.......
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:37 AM   #149
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HookMega ~
I think the point in all of this is that without factory involvement in any form of motorsports there is no real motivating factor to improve the existing product. And in that sense RC racing differs little from their larger cousins in that the bigger teams, the factory drivers, get the good stuff first. This can be good and bad. In one sense they are the guneia pigs in testing and racing, and they are also the first ones to find out something works fine on the test track and is worthless on a rutted racetrack - so sometimes it works out in their favor and sometimes it doesn't.

But fact of the matter is that without this real-world, real-time, racing conditions testing products will not move forward -- and you'd be running the same old alumi-tub RC10 we were back in the '80s (with the crappy tranny), or maybe you would have upgraded to a carbon fiber chassis plate (but wouldn't have known that it needed a stiffener to keep it from snap-flexing, that got found out through years of racing), or maybe you would have been still running Losi expandable-joint cvds (that it took two years of racing to figure out that they didn't work), or there would have been no motivation for a company like TeamPitStop to invent the slipper clutch (and you guys would still be battling trying to make your cars stop spinning donuts).

Anyway, the point is that racing improves the breed, improves the product, and leads to the ever-morphing of cars and parts. Without it..... we'd all still be running Tamaiya Frogs.

But thinking it would be as easy as having a Sportsman class for the average Joe and a Pro class for the factory racers, then what would stop someone (like Gil Losi and his dad did) from upgrading their kit car (giving the same parts to a bunch of their buddies if they wanted) into a world-beater and still beat the bejesus out of the ordinary guy?

Sure rules should be in place to keep things fair, but rules are already in place. But rules can only address so many things, and outlawing something just because it's as a result of someone thinking outside the box (figuratively and not literally, of course) eliminates the idea of improving or trying to make something work better.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:39 AM   #150
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