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NORTHERN MINI RACERS, MINOT

Old 12-26-2007, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by buttsy
i'm making it my mission to single handedly bring back 10th pan cars. we have the room now! anybody that has been racing for the last decade or so must have 1 sitting in their collection. lets get the movement going.

bob are you listening?
They race 'em in Canada.
Check here:
http://www.wcics.ca/WCICS.html

OMG, I think they dump'd pan...WHY GOD, WHY!!!
http://wcics.ca/RaceResults/wcicsstandings07.htm

Frankly, and it pains me to admit this. We finally have the technology to make them "TO FREAKING FAST". And we have done so at nearly every race. There are still a few good bodys, one of them Protoform only pulls for us.

I might have, and I'm not kidding... 75-90, 1/10th pan cars in various stages of use, abuse, assembly and dis-assembly. I'd say I have 15+ ready to go right now.

If a guy was going to pursue pan car instead of say touring, You'd want to look at the rules, and really think about it. Even the narrow 1/10th pan cars are good on carpet, and they fit better. Mostly you'd want to get some good rules going ahead of time. Like perhaps brushless 13.5 only. Make the class a little easier to play with on race day. But the 4.5-5.5 stuff on 6 cells, is just to much for 99.9% of people to drive without breaking stuff up. I'd bet, without to much effort you could hit 50-60mph indoors on a 90-100 foot straight

The guys from Xtreme got a mostly stock Rustler VXL to 40mph in 60feet, and 56mph in 150feet, from a dead stop. Imagine a car with 1/2 the weight, 10 times the down force, and 90% LESS rotating mass.

Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-26-2007 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:34 AM
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I know you guys are going to love this coming from me!

But how about 4 cell 1/10scale pan! Or 1 cell Lipo........ (I knew that would wake you up).

I have no idea how slow 1 cell LiPo would be? Just an idea......

Bob's right (yes I said Bob was right) 1/10 pan with anything more than a 13.5 and 6 cells would be a rocket! And I'm not sure how easy it is to get parts for them anymore, Bob could answer that question. I still have my original 10L. And new tires still in the packaging....

10L with a 13.5 or 17.5 with 4 cells....... interesting.....God were they fun to drive in there day! Who needs 4wd on carpet?

Bill N.
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:42 AM
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Right now we're looking at 4 cell 19t. All of us 12th guys already have 4 cell packs and 19t motors. No extra cost there.
It would be interesting to see what a 1 lipo setup would do.

Bob, get 1 setup like that and come over and do some testing.

I'm tingling in areas I haven't tingled in a long time!
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:09 AM
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I remember in CT seeing some pan car racing going on. Looked like lightyears simpler that running touring and on carpet they hooked up fine too. If there was something local for it here it would be on my list to try out, much much more than touring.

So what are the good pan cars out there?

Bill: I too would be curious to see how a 1 cell lipo would work out, if at all.

Looking forward to seeing any pics of the racing action and even some video if it becomes available!
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:00 AM
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Talk about a slow and easy car to drive... one cell with a a 4800 1 cel lipo. We could do a one hour enduro...... Anyone remember the 12 hour enduro of the 80s and 90s in Minot? Now that was a fun race!

1/12 scale 4 cells with 17 turns mods and 1200s..... the good ol days of 1/12 scale..

I'll bet a 4 cell pan car with the new 4600s and a 17.5 would last a good half hour or longer. We could do a continuous 6 hour race with 3 or 4 man teams. Now the tire wear would be the next issue.....

Bill...
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by billneu
Talk about a slow and easy car to drive... one cell with a a 4800 1 cel lipo. We could do a one hour enduro...... Anyone remember the 12 hour enduro of the 80s and 90s in Minot? Now that was a fun race!

1/12 scale 4 cells with 17 turns mods and 1200s..... the good ol days of 1/12 scale..

I'll bet a 4 cell pan car with the new 4600s and a 17.5 would last a good half hour or longer. We could do a continuous 6 hour race with 3 or 4 man teams. Now the tire wear would be the next issue.....

Bill...
No horsepower, no tire wear. Relatively speaking. Additionally, removing weight with a lighter battery would decrease cornering friction. lowering wear (and traction, depending on were the weight was removed.)
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by billneu
Talk about a slow and easy car to drive... one cell with a a 4800 1 cel lipo. We could do a one hour enduro...... Anyone remember the 12 hour enduro of the 80s and 90s in Minot? Now that was a fun race!

1/12 scale 4 cells with 17 turns mods and 1200s..... the good ol days of 1/12 scale..

I'll bet a 4 cell pan car with the new 4600s and a 17.5 would last a good half hour or longer. We could do a continuous 6 hour race with 3 or 4 man teams. Now the tire wear would be the next issue.....

Bill...
I beg to differ about easier to drive. As the speed of the car is reduced, the driving accuracy required to win is greatly intensified. Where you could maybe now and again, be off the line 2-3 feet in mod 1/12th and it was the norm, everybody has to hit the line within 2-3 inches every single time with a slow car.

I have yet to test any 17.5 stuff personally (will be over the next month). but I have a fair amount of time testing other endurance style motors. What typically happens is massive overgearing to compensate for lost top end. This means less torque and more heat. But that was brushed. I'm curious to see where 17.5 leads us. I know all the speedo manufacturers are doing some head scratching with sensored 17.5 motors. As they require such a HUGE rollout to generate a good track speed. I'm talking 3" of rollout in something like 12th. This means the speedo has allowed the car to roll 3" and still the rotor has yet to even do "A" revolution. So it's hard for the speedo and the esc to talk when there is no information given yet.

Fantom Dyno numbers on high turn motors that were in the 79-80% efficiency range could be made to run at stock motor speeds on 4200's for 20 minutes in a 28-29 ounce car. And you could dump if it was driven or geared poorly.

figure a 17.5 is gonna be in the 90% efficiency range, in a heavier car, with more aero drag, heavier tires, wider (thus more differential drag), etc... etc...

Add into that a heavier car, overgearing, near dumping and we are talking about adding voltage drops/fades and radio problems into the mix, and weak transponder voltage.

I'd say, "likely" a solid 20 minutes. I don't think 30 minutes, not at racing speeds. And add into that cells that aren't really 4600 mah anymore. Most 4600's of mine are in the 4200's. My 4200's are in the 3800 range. Still good race packs, I'm not dumping or complaining.

The only problem with doing something that is not in the realm of normal racing is parts availability, and nobody else is doing it, so you can't really count on numbers at big events. And if it just dilutes classes in the regular club setting, then it really doesn't get you much of benefit.

There is an advantage in other areas though. Like if there was a group that wanted to play with lipo or whatever, that would be a perfect time to give it a shot. Or if the 21.5 brushless is interesting, give it a shot. This information can be used by the club to say, "you know", that 21.5 is even better for the club than the 17.5, let's do that. And you have some experience to draw from.

Just like the guys doing the WCICS series in Canada. They are trying to be progressive and follow the race numbers. 1/10th pan entrys were down, they dropped it, and added a 13.5 brushless touring. Being progressive like that ensures good turnout, and interest. They have a 2wd GT class that runs rubber touring tires on "technically" what is a Tamiya pan car, with silver can mabuchi motors. I built a mutant version of one of those and Eric Grosse raced it to 2nd for me in Regina. Was fun to do. Something different. AND THAT MOTOR GOT HOT, we had 3 fans on that little mabuchi... But, it's a fun class, and people like the challenge of it.

They also dropped 1/18th scale classes. I was just looking at their standings, and it looks like that silver can GT class is like their second biggest class behind, 19turn touring. Mod touring is looking grim, and likely will be dumped in favor of something else next year.
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by buttsy
Right now we're looking at 4 cell 19t. All of us 12th guys already have 4 cell packs and 19t motors. No extra cost there.
It would be interesting to see what a 1 lipo setup would do.

Bob, get 1 setup like that and come over and do some testing.

I'm tingling in areas I haven't tingled in a long time!
If it would help the club, I'll build one and send it over for you to test.

1) Wide or Narrow?
2) Nascar or GTP?
3) receiver?
4) Lipo is hard in a pan car because of the lack of saddle pack configurations and is not "easily available".

Here is what I would recommend in this situation. It's a new class, treat it as such. Make it easy to do, and make it with technology you can use in other places, even if you're not "yet".

I'd go Narrow car. Easier to find cheap, easier to get bodies for, they're still wider than 1/12th, but would make for better racing as they are not wide and easier to pass. The body shape is more pleasing to the eye, and more scale accurate.

Additionally, you would technically be building cars that could just as easily be raced at Surrey, making it more useful to the builder.

This leads me to recommend Brushless for the class. The complaint at Surrey is that guys like electric, it works every time compared to Nitro. BUT, brushed motors, and a very limited day light schedule, and dusty conditions leave people NOT wanting to drag their good maintenance equipment out there and add time to the day, when they could be playing.

And use Sub-c's, cheaper, we all have them, and good ones likely won't have as much of an impact. The class should be developed so that you end up using your worst 1/12th scale packs and are happy with the results, making it your best value. Like we buy new packs in the fall, abuse them all winter, and when they're about shot, BAMMO, great offroad packs. That's a good value.

Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-27-2007 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 03:04 PM
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In fact, looking back. I have another recommendation.

Run the Tamiya GT touring cars, on rubber tires with the silver can motor.

It's this car:
https://www.ssl-stormerhobbies.com/c...6&showbig=6809

Here's a body off shot:
http://www.tamiyausa.com/images/chassis/a74.jpg

The rationale is that it kind of fits the bill. Is easy and fun, relatively cheap, you can find parts. AND, it's a huge class and part of the WCICS series in Canada, and quite a few from our group end up, up there.

I think it would be fun to take it to the next level and run it 17.5 brushless. But I don't know about the gearing, or if it could be done. Likely it is similar to how a silver can has to be geared.

Additionally, the chassis is configured in such a way that a hardcase lipo would stuff right in there. (I think... haven't tried it but it looks correct.) What you have then, is a car that is current, proven to be raceworthy, no motor issues, one or 2 batterys and you're done. about as maintenance free as humanly possible. Rubber tires on a "no horsepower car" should last all season, where as foams will hunk etc. The only time the car should require a good "working on", is when it breaks.

More expensive, but all the stuff used is current, can be used in other race and fun cars, and most importantly, should speed up the race day and race program, as there are less things to do and maintain.

Down side, more expensive than figuring out a 1/10th pan configuration. Not as useful locally as a 1/10th pan car. Not going to be as fast either. But that's not always the answer, as the F103GT is a VERY popular class in Canada.
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Old 12-28-2007, 10:46 PM
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Default I like the Tamiya

Bob I like your tamiya idea, a unique relatively maitenence free vehicle that runs a unique body compared to a tc or 1/12, I have messed with brushless and lipos, fun stuff. It really isnt all that bad to get into it, a VXL system is like 160 bucks esc and motor, esc is big but its a redily available thing. change to a 17.5 motor and there you go, take it out put a faster motor in go oval racing or off road in the summer, or run brushed with it, very versitle. Rubber tires are also something I would be interested in for a class like this, marc took the wing off his mini slider and went around, it was cool watching it pull wheelies(not very efficent but cool)but the rubber isnt bad on carpet. The tamiya car is acutally cheaper then 1/18 RC18R, if you go racing you figure somones going to replace the electronics anyways in that, $168 new i believe and Bob you had like $138 on the Tam. Plus! If there are regional clubs doing it I think the club needs to go in that direction, in order to have the big two day fund raiser sucessful you have to have classes that out of town people are going to run. Bob, I know you will build anything if its cool, but your thought into this is great! RACING IS ABOUT PROGRESSION
Just my 2 Cents.
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Old 12-28-2007, 11:57 PM
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sorry to butt in, but certain plp will know what im talking about, all I have to say is!!!!! let the pit table war begin!!!! R.G.
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Old 12-29-2007, 07:27 PM
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We had are first race day on the new track in the new building, had a great day, lots of racers, track was fast and we still have some bumps to work out but all and all it was a great time even though I ran like sh*( it is still a blast to get out there and have a great time.
Thanks to all the racers that showed up.
see you all on the 12th and you all have a great New Year.

Rob.
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:04 PM
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25 12th racers, gotta be the 12th capital of north america.
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:17 PM
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HAD A GREAT TIME! Couldnt make the pot luck, how was it? Cant wait till the next time we race. Its fricking fun with that many 1/12 guys there.
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:30 PM
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Just got home, but it was worth the drive. I had a blast, great bunch of guys up there. Just wanted to say thanks again. See you next weekend at Pingree.
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