wildman

iTrader: (1)

ROAR 2007 RULES: pages 34-36
8.5.6.6 Modifications on rebuildable stock motors:
8.5.6.6.1 No modifications to the physical construction or the motor can, endbell, or armature will be permitted ( e.g. adding or removing material from the armature stack,changing the brush hoods from stand up to lay down and visa-versa, relocating spring posts).

8.5.6.6.2 If a rebulidable stock motor shows any signs of any of these modifications during a post race inspection, the driver will receive no score for that qualifier or main.

Come on guy's the if NOT a grey area, It's simpley not legal to re-balance stock arms!
If you were running a re-balanced arm in Omaha, You were not legal and should return any trophy's awarded. They go by ROAR as well as many many tracks in our area!

Removing material in 1/12 will make the motor spool up faster and give it a little more rpm it will not affect 1/10 sedans as much.

Mitch and Randy are both very good drivers and I look forward to racing with them anytime, but MY concern is more for the new guy's or average racers. How can they compete with guy's running equipment that breaks the rules!

I spoke to Scotty E from Trackside yesterday and He will back me up on the Brushless thing anyday! It has saved Oval racing and as of right now there is NO way to tweak the motors that can't be easily teched!
I know the expense to get started maybe more than some of us can afford right now, but we can saveup all summer for next year!

Mitch, I have been working on my puzzle all week, so I put in a mod brushless and my puzzle is done!
I will try my best to run with you guy's in Mod, but let's Nip the stock motor rule bending right now for the sake of keeping this sport growing!
See you all at Prairie Nights!
Brian Bohlman

rc-speed

iTrader: (1)

Brian, what did Scotty say about balancing stock motors? Is it legal at his track or with ROAR? Do you really think that serious stock racers are running raw or untouched motors? Do you think there would be 3 or more total raw stocks at Cleveland or the Birds? There has not been many raw stocks since the fixed endbell motors and even then they had truers to true the comms in the can! Raw stocks are for newbies, tuned stocks are for serious stock racing. You should probably go to a big stock 1-12th race so you can see for yourself what real (LEGAL) stock HP is!!!!! Now that you know it is all legal maybe you should give it another try with a blueprinted motor and see how you like real stock racing! By the way I nor anyone else believes that you are running a raw motor! Why would a motor sponsor send out a raw motor to a sponsored driver? The reason they sponsor drivers is so they can make their motors look faster than other competitors motors and SELL MORE MOTORS!!! They would not send out raw motors that could be slugs to their sponsored drivers because that would not make the motor builder look good. Who would buy a motor that a sponsored driver is getting it handed to him with!! PLEASE TELL US WHAT SCOTTY SAID ABOUT BALANCING. I would believe anything that Scotty would say about stock rules as he should know!!!!


Randy

Bob-Stormer

iTrader: (8)

No adding or removing of material of the armature stack that changed it's physical construction: The physical construction still matches the dimensions shown on the bottom of page 36. Material removed did not change it's construction, according to the rule, and not one of the physical dimensions has changed.

So, by that rationale, in your opinion, does br00d sell any legal tuned stock motors?

The service for a tuned br00d motor with balancing adds $5 to the motor. And they do it for every tuned stock they sell.

And, can you, or anybody you know, tell the difference between a raw arm and a re-blanced arm? Both have been drill balanced to begin with, as I understand it.

Also, why couldn't a person have an armature balancer and simply look for the best arm out of what they have laying around? Nothing wrong with that either.

Now, here's what I think. It looks legal to me, If it's not legal, that's fine too. But we are all reading the rule differently, and need somebody from ROAR to simply say, "YO, dipsticks, it's legal, or it's not". It would have been very simple to simply say, "you can't re-balance the armature", and that rule is just not there.

-Bob

wildman

iTrader: (1)

Randy,
First of all I called Scotty to get my power supply sent back to me and this stock crap didn't come up. We talked about Brushless and how much better he thought it was for our sport. Stock and mod!
All of the big races your go to are not ROAR races, so do what ever you want to get an edge, but when your racing in our area and the tracks here are going by ROAR. Stick to the rules, don't try to bring your idea of whats legal there to here!
ROAR rules are simple and were using them!

Now on the brOOd stock issue! I am racing at ROAR tracks, so I order a RAW stock, put a brOOd sticker on them and run them.
I am confident my driving will show how good the products and not how much I can bend or break the rules.
Like I said before I can send you a copy of my brOOd orders if you would like. The only thing Garret builds for me are my Mods! Kind of funny how there are not any brOOd decals on my stocks, maybe because they were shipped to me just like they came from trinity!

If you are claiming you have stepped up your driving, why was I 1 to 2 laps up on you in mod in SD and at Degalman? Kind of funny I am 1 to 2 laps down in stock? It must be a RAW stock vs. a Modified Stock?
That's right Stock is more technical than mod thats why there are NO Stock world champions?
SMACK Talk! LOL

I know you and Mitch a very fast drivers, So why look for an edge? Let you skills with the wheel do the talking!

I am all for helping others first and helping myself last!

Drop the drama! Get over it! Some things that were not legal were done!
Race the mod class and give the new guy's a chance in stock, but keep it fair!
Bring it!
BB

wildman

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=wildman]ROAR 2007 RULES: pages 34-36
8.5.6.6 Modifications on rebuildable stock motors:
8.5.6.6.1 No modifications to the physical construction or the motor can, endbell, or armature will be permitted ( e.g. adding or removing material from the armature stack,changing the brush hoods from stand up to lay down and visa-versa, relocating spring posts).

8.5.6.6.2 If a rebulidable stock motor shows any signs of any of these modifications during a post race inspection, the driver will receive no score for that qualifier or main.

ADDING OR REMOVING MATERIAL FROM THE ARMATURE STACK!This is very simple! When you re-balance an arm you are removing material!
BB

Bob-Stormer

iTrader: (8)

If you believe that NOTHING, at any time, should have been removed from the rotor, then EVERY SINGLE MOTOR DELIVERED is illegal. Including your motors. If there is a balance hole, (in any stock rotor) by your interpretation, it's illegal.

The reason there is no rule against it is that it can't be tech'd. The balance holes are NOT on the same place on the stacks, and are different on each motor.

To further add a WTF? to it all, I talked with Tony P and Gary Owen over at Trinity this afternoon. That's a recent move for Gary, he was with Associated until a few days ago. According to "P", and this is WHERE ALL EPIC MOTORS COME FROM, he was of the mind that you could clean up the existing holes but can't add any more holes. And was of the mind that ROAR had clearly addresed it. Which is clearly not the case.

So go ahead and define "clean up the existing holes". And that's not even in there.

David Lee from ROAR, interprets it as the motor can be re-balanced by a tuner if so desired. So ROAR says they can be re-balanced, regardless of how you read the rule. He says the construction rule was put in there for the ACTUAL MANUFACTURERS OF 540 SIZED MOTORS, so that we get a similar class motor from Epic, Orion, Yokomo, integy, et' all.

Bob-Stormer

iTrader: (8)

How good the br00d product are??? they didn't do one single thing!? The only actual work would have been to apply the sticker, and you did that. They didn't build it either, you did. I think to put a br00d sticker on a motor that they had NOTHING to do with, is well, wrong and in a way, either sends false hope or is false advertising isn't it??? It's not a br00d motor, it's a Bohlman motor. THEY DID NOTHING TO IT. So if you were to win with it, what does br00d get credit for? This has nothing to do with the arm debate, but is a twisted side street, and I'm just flat curious.

And here's where it get's thorny. If you bought it raw, and it has balance holes in it, how did they get there? According to ROAR, only tuners can re-balance an arm. You just said the "tuner" never touched it.

And balance holes are legal, so, figure that one out. I've got maybe 150-200 trashed old stocks. I just gave them a quick eyeball. Some have been balanced, some have not (were obviously within tolerance and not required), all are legal, and as delivered. Looks like about a 50-50 kind of deal. I might have 400 mods, so don't read much into that like that stock is expensive and requires a lot of motors. I just don't like a grundgy looking motor, and offroad beats up stickers cans and endbells, *ick*... Makes your motor look like a "thrift store" find. ...lol...

wildman

iTrader: (1)

Bob,
The way I read it is No modifications after OEM!
So if by what all of these other guys are saying it's legal. Then why would any new or average driver ever want to run stock?
You know I am almost at the point were I call brOOd and have them send me a God pack and Factory tweaked motor just to prove my point, but I don't feel like spending that kind of CASH!
Used balancer $250
Com lathe with diamond bit $ $180+
Brushes and more brushes!
Cutting com's to 275, just to go faster?
How is this possibly cheaper than a stock brushless system?
I know for sure it will be Brushless at my track at least for one class for stock those who don't want to cut and tune!

Bob, I love the idea of slowing things down for the new guy's, but let's face it faster cars in stock with less work and more time for SMACK talk!
I'm in!
Brian

Bob-Stormer

iTrader: (8)

Not to worry I called Eddie-o, and he's sending you those items, billed to me. Feel free to prove your point.

OH... MY... GOD... seriously? Do you feel you need a balancer to re-balance a balanced motor? And no offence to Randy and Mitch, are you aware they have, as I understand it, a magnetic prop balancer from niftech? Go look, I don't even want to hear anything more about it until you look at what it is. This ain't no $20,000 machine they "swung kind of internet deal on". IT'S A PROP BALANCER... It's no $30,000 dynamic Hoffman. You need to get a grip. Don't you have 2 GFX's in your pit? Isn't that about $800? And you feel to give your sponsor $20 for a new motor is just cash out the window... Who doesn't own a lathe? And who do you know that's ever turned down a noob that asked for a quick cut? NOBODY. Ever give brushes to a noob? yep, me too. so enough about that. It's not an issue.

That's where your wrong, the class that uses a stock motor for it's base is already WAY TO FAST. That's the problem. It's not that guys are cherry picking, it's that if you like 1/12th, and there's only 2 classes, and you'd like to run 2 cars, guess what, you're in stock and mod.

I'm in for brushless, happy to play with it, was never against it. But do so with your eyes open. All the tools for brushless performance, you don't have...YET... As I was pointing out, Bills 13.5 motor is already obsolete, and before he got to use it again. THAT is what I was pointing out. And there is no 13.5 motor from everybody else, that you've seen...yet...

13.5 is what we are using, ROAR has not picked anything yet. What happens when they pick 15.5?

So when a noob gets it handed to him by 10 laps with his 13.5 we tell him what? Or that the motor he got from Bill is obsolete before he even used it, we tell him what? Do we tell him he needs to contact br00d, because Eddie-o has dyno'd the last batch of 13.5's and has the top 25 motors ready to be purchased?

And a better 13.5 is gonna stay better, A LONG TIME, it's worth more money isn't it... That's where it's headed. Good or bad.

KEITH

iTrader: (42)

this might put some of this to rest i have been talking to our ROAR regional director and many other officials about this so the arm thing is still up but it is a very grey area you can balance but not lightin the arm very grey area. no where did it say at the pkc race we were using roar rules it says 4200 bat limit stock locked 27t motor brushless in the mod class only bill said roar rules but its not on the flyer nor posted by any of us. also pingree is a roar track but if the race is not a roar scanction event then the rules dont apply we go by same as stated above this has been announced there at the opening race we had hope this clears some stuff up hope to see all there

Bob-Stormer

iTrader: (8)

Actually, a better assesment would be why would you want to run anything other than the best $40 motor that ANY company sells. It's done, best things that could be done, have been done, here you go.

You really think your being out motor'd is the only problem we have. And regardless of what gets tossed around about what can and cannot be done, it's not going to change your perceptions.

I'm perfectly willing to be wrong, you show less tendancies for that, to put it kindly. Big difference. I'm perfectly willing to have somebody put laps on me, and get out driven. Bill found it an outrage... Eveybody else has to be cheating... good grief...

If you feel that a small hole on Bills armature would have propelled him from 10 laps down to beating some of the best stock drivers in the country, then we are really not seeing eye to eye on this. Because that's what it boils down to.

Somebody puts laps on me, I'm taking notes, others point fingers... Big difference.

Bob-Stormer

iTrader: (8)

Shrode,

You know what the real problem is? There really aren't enough classes to account for new guys and other guys if they are both interested in running 2 cars to make the weekend a better value.

If a guy wants to run 2 classes of 1/12th, you have only stock and mod. I'm not running all the way over there to get 15 minutes of track time and come home. I, and a lot of others are trying to make the most of anyrace weekend by running 2 or more cars.

What that does though is put some good experienced drivers in with the newer or drivers that aren't as interested in working on their cars as much, but still want to race, compete, and have fun.

I've temporarily given up on running a touring car and 1/12th cars at the same race. I find it frustrating. I'll run touring at one event, and then 1/12th at the next, or something like that. But it's always 2 cars or more.

KEITH

iTrader: (42)

bring a 1/18

KEITH

iTrader: (42)

here i am posting to myselg it must be contagous anyway were pressed for time to get all Qualifiers in on sat to answer for more classes good thought though

billneu

I told you all I have the Gift! I have not posted on this thread since 3-8-2007!

And since then my name Bill has come up many 33 times, there is 1333 lines, 12127 words and over 50903 characters! Plus or minus and cut and paste! And 249 replies and over 4243 views! Only the RcBarn has more views and that thread was started on 1-4-2007.

Wow! Do I have the gift for getting people all roiled up! Go me!

And all of this started with this simple posting!

__________________________________________________ _____________________


03-02-2007, 03:29 PM
Post #80

________________________________________
So for the guys that ran down in Omaha how was it running the Stk Brushless mtrs and what about running LiPos? How did they compare and did they make much of a difference one way or the other?

I wish I had driven down but I did end up getting a cold on Sat and was in bed the next two days!


Bill


And the next post!



03-02-2007, 06:36 PM
Post #83

________________________________________
We'll maybe not for this year but I hope for next year we change from the standard old fashion and expensive too maintain brushed 27t class and start a new 13.5 brushless class.

I currently have 4 stock motors (2 are a 3 months old and 2 are from last year (scratch that I have 3, I blew one up while I was in Sioux Falls). And to be any where close to competitive I'm going to need to spend another $70 or so and buy at least two more motors before PKC. (I hate to do this it is just like throwing money out the door!) But if we ran brushless this would not be necessary.

Plus I ran brushless in my TC up at the Minot race and I placed 6th or 7th and definitely didn't blow by anyone running brushed! But it was sure nice not having to cut my armature after ever run, nor replacing the brushes after every two runs and not to mention the time it take to do all of this when running two classes.

I know a lot of you guys are running speedos that are probably due for a upgrade! And the extra $10 for a duel speedo is not going to break anyone. Heck the money saved on brushes alone should cause guys to want to race brushless!

Brian or Mitch or Jari are still all going to kick our butts irregardless to what we use! Why not make it more competitive and cheaper (in the long run)?
Bill

P.S. How many guys will it take to start a new class at the PKC...

__________________________________________________ ___________

It funny how fast things can blow up! I do really have the gift! And this is the first time I’ve posted to this thread since 3-9-2007 (been out of town working). And since then the lawyers from ROAR are now even reading this thread! (I wouldn’t be surprised!)


All I really want is to start a new class! If some guys still want to race the stock class (or whatever you want to call it) then let them race stock and then we could have BL class for all of us “entry level drivers”! As per Mitch!


Quote from the Mitch (bills fan club thread)
As Bob has said, and I would agree, stock is not an entry level class. Stock motors today are going faster than modified "back in the day". It is more technical than modified (especially mod brushless).



Mitch and Randy you could then just demo for us in your own, lets call it Cleveland stk class (Tha'st what Randy was saying you guys needed to prepare for) Just give us “entry level drivers” a little exhibition! And this way we call all just stand there in total amazement! Just do me one favor! DON”T SHARE YOUR secrets with any other “entry level drivers! and definitely don’t share any of your ROAR stock motors with them either! Let them learn just like you did, the hard way! Remember the conversation I had with you and Randy? That is exactly what that conversation was all about! Do you remember when I asked you what you guys were doing to go so fast? I should have been a little more direct and ask you what was making Tyler and Eric and Steven go so fast! It sure wasn’t their driving line as you put it! Unless that includes hitting the wall numerous times!

I really don’t mind getting my Bu^^ kicked by you or Randy or BB. What I hate is getting out motored by guys that can’t drive the line like you and Randy can!

Here are some facts from last Sundays A Main:

Myself Steven
Laps under 8.2 4 7
Under 8.3 5 18

SDEV (standard Dev) 0.449 0.892

I don’t have the stats from Bismarck but this should shed a little light on my point! I did end up beating Steven by about 4 seconds. And like Bob’s little equation states the most consistent guy wins! Barley! If it wasn’t for the fact that Steven was bouncing off the walls and other cars this wouldn’t have been even close! I had two laps over 10 seconds he had 4 and 2 of those were over 12 seconds!

It just gets old when you see a guy coming up on you because of HP that he is getting from his cousin, and I ask his cousin directly what or how you guys are going so fast and all you say is that you are driving a more efficient line! Ya sure you betcha ya! Glad too see Steven is driving the same line you are and carrying all that speed down the straight! Too be fair I would also have to make this same comment about Eric also!

The reason I didn’t race the last qualifier was because I wanted to see just what line you and Randy were driving! (That’s was what you told me was the difference didn’t you?) I then did my best to follow that line in the main and I went slower than I did in my previous Q. (I should have hit a fast 57 lap and maybe 58 in the Q but I got slammed into the wall out in the middle on the last lap and it took 16 seconds for the marshal to get to me so I only hit 56). I only ran a slow 56 lap main and that was when I was trying your line! Wide and on the throttle all of the time! At least that is what it looked like to both me and BB.

So again, do us all a favor! If you don’t want to share your infinite knowledge with us “entry level drivers” then don’t share it with the guys we are trying to compete with either!

If you and Randy need to prep yourselves for Cleveland! Then go right a head! We can set up a separate exhibition class just for you two and maybe BB will join you? (I'll probably never make it back there since I have to be in Vegas for work that same weeK) (Tough job but someone has to do it

This way the rest of use “entry level drivers” can then just concentrate on our driving skills and not have to worry about getting out of yours and Randy way every 5th lap! And not have to worry about cutting our arms or having them blue printed before every club race! Or whatever ROAR legal thing you do to your mtrs!

Bill

ps That just added another 1200 words to the total! Da Gift! I feel a T-shirt idea coming! Also Bob, my batteries are also out of date!