Oxy, you are one of the most negative people I have ever come across ona forum. I am amazed that you think the stuff you write is 'constructive'
Anyone that tries to create a new event and push it invariably goes through a lot of hassle. Constant negativity does not exactly motivate.
Who's rules!? Who cares!? It doesn't matter who's rules are used, that's not the point. If you seriously think there needs to be all sorts of rules then why not contact Cris, ask what he has in mind and constructively suggest or discuss things that are important to you but realise that it's about more than you and the things that might be important to you may not mean anything in the biggers cheme of things.
I wonder if there will ever be more than big words from you. Would you actually ever get on a plane and participate in a world class event? I think I may know the answer.
Oh man...you've taken EVERY thought I've had about Oxy and put it into words...
Him and I've had have MANY MANY conversations where he tried to "offer" suggestions - but cannot pull it off correctly (not saying that I'm an angel or perfect with this)
But there comes a point, oxy where you should just not chime in unless you are actually planning on attending
So if everyone wants a set of rules - why not discuss what the rules are for the home track and work on that ??? instead of trying to recreate the wheel?
There needs to be spec's for the event - it cannot just be OPEN/ANYTHING GOES, especially for an event that wants to be billed as a "worlds"
but that's my 2 cents...
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Anyways, I didn't realize the UK rules are 185mm for wheelbase... that's a huge difference I think compared to the stock RC18T as an example which is only about 156mm. The US nats limit is 165mm. Just thought that glaring difference is part of what Oxy is hinting at.
I think the Brits were making a catch-all limit to cover all classes, I might be wrong, and/or to cover the new stretched wheelbase Losi Slider chassis - but the one singular u.s. nats rules (there are others) someone is intent on forcing down everyone's throats had differing wheelbase allowances in different classes (that, btw, changed from last year).
Oh man...you've taken EVERY thought I've had about Oxy and put it into words...
Him and I've had have MANY MANY conversations where he tried to "offer" suggestions - but cannot pull it off correctly (not saying that I'm an angel or perfect with this)
But there comes a point, oxy where you should just not chime in unless you are actually planning on attending
So if everyone wants a set of rules - why not discuss what the rules are for the home track and work on that ??? instead of trying to recreate the wheel?
There needs to be spec's for the event - it cannot just be OPEN/ANYTHING GOES, especially for an event that wants to be billed as a "worlds"
but that's my 2 cents...
LOL, I think those sentiments are generally agreed upon by a lot of people on a lot of forums. But I could be wrong.
Some folks aren't happy unless they're arguing and stomping their feet saying, "do it my way or I'm taking my ball and going home.
Anyways, I didn't realize the UK rules are 185mm for wheelbase... that's a huge difference I think compared to the stock RC18T as an example which is only about 156mm. The US nats limit is 165mm. Just thought that glaring difference is part of what Oxy is hinting at.
Yes! We are talking about somewhat major differences in how each side of the pond defines the classes for National level events. Your basically screwing over the team drivers of the smaller cars with allowing larger scales to compete. What team other than the larger vehicles would want to compete in such when you already have them at a disadvantage? Lets also not get started on using 1/10th sedan tires which are way proportionally out of scale. The politics are already there Frogger even as it is now as these examples show. A worlds would be about balancing the equation with give and take to reflect the world. Not just the host country.
m not saying right/wrong, I'm saying that there needs to be a middle ground of compromise. Such as using smaller wheelbases, but allowing the larger tires.
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But there comes a point, oxy where you should just not chime in unless you are actually planning on attending
Soo... Is that an offer to pay my way k_bojar? I'm all for it! Hit me up man! I call dibs on the window seat!
I think the Brits were making a catch-all limit to cover all classes, I might be wrong, and/or to cover the new stretched wheelbase Losi Slider chassis - but the one singular u.s. nats rules (there are others) someone is intent on forcing down everyone's throats had differing wheelbase allowances in different classes (that, btw, changed from last year).
Who exactly are you accusing of "forcing rules down people's throats"? I'm sorry, but I may have been blinded by your poor grammar or the fact that you replied exclusively to stir the pot with Oxy.
Has everyone forgotten the whole qualifiying factor previously mentioned? This thread was going along pretty well until certain people (cough.....ratherBracing, whom I believe was just recently banned from at least one other board and Bojar)
Sorry for stepping in for the sole purpose of calling shannanigans, but ya'll had nothing to contribute here and should've stayed out.
Frogger.....what is your or c0sie's set up for the vendetta? If you care to share with us
Do you guys run the 1/10 scale wheel adapters and run the 10th scale touring tires? If so then that should answer Mikes question!
I run the ST and Cris runs the standard Blaze (Vendetta) so our setups are somewhat different. You also have to consider the tracks we run which are usually indoor, multi surface (high grip carpet, polished wood sections and other slippy sections, some big jumps and some small jumps, etc.) so no dirt or grass or astro.
I run mine in pretty much stock setup as it comes out of the box (stock camber and caster, 0 toe, standard springs, bones level) and the only thing I change is shock oil which at the moment is 70W all round. I don't run anti roll bars. Long wheelbase.
Cris runs his Blaze with ARBs and stiffer springs at the front and more camber and rear toe in.
We all use 10th scale foams (most commonly from Gecko tyres) and true them down anywhere between 57mm - 65mm depending on individual preferences. Some people also narrow their foams to between 22-24mm.
MikeR - yes, the general idea with the long wheelbase is to allow as many as possible RTR cars to participate without modification. We do see a good mix of cars (although the Blaze\Vendetta\LRP SHark is most popular) such as Exotek's (I myself have run the Exotek in several nationals), RC18B and RC18T, M18T Pro, Mini Inferno's, Mini-T's and some custom made Mini-B's with longer chassis, Tamiya Tamtech Gear, etc.
The all in one class rule actually makes things far simpler and easy to scrutineer as the scrutineers have far less to worry about. It also allows freedom for people to drive what they want, keep costs low and the attitude has been good about the various cars competing. We don't get too hung up on slight weight differences or wheelbase differences, as long as it fits it can compete.
We've had some big names place stock standard cars on podiums - Keith Roberts put a stock RC18T on the podium and Mark Stiles put a stock M18T on the podium and Fabien put a Mini-Inferno ST KMRC on a podium amongst the sea of Blaze's. These are cars that vary in weight from 550gr to about 800gr and wheelbase from 156mm to 184mm!! so if anything, I am convinced (as I've seen it happen in nationals) that any car has the capability of winning in the right hands.
At the end of the day it's about having fun and being with friends and it's easy to get lost in all sorts of rules. We should not forget these are toy cars we are racing.
Who exactly are you accusing of "forcing rules down people's throats"? I'm sorry, but I may have been blinded by your poor grammar or the fact that you replied exclusively to stir the pot with Oxy.
Has everyone forgotten the whole qualifiying factor previously mentioned? This thread was going along pretty well until certain people (cough.....ratherBracing, whom I believe was just recently banned from at least one other board and Bojar)
Sorry for stepping in for the sole purpose of calling shannanigans, but ya'll had nothing to contribute here and should've stayed out.
Dadgum, now we've got a self-imposed grammar queen weighing in? And before you go wagging your finger, you might check the mirror - and your punctuation could use some work too. You also might try using complete sentences as well.
It might have been going well until certain people (oXY) did their same old song and dance of arguing their same old worn out points, or the website bullies (cough......dieselbaby) started throwing their weight around. Pot calling the kettle?
I think did actually contribute something; but maybe you need to read it again r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w-l-y so as to comprehend it.
And might I suggest before you get all high and mighty might you check yourself at the door, and add SOMETHING (other than what was said 10 posts ago) before calling out others. Or do you have your Barney Fife badge on today and are playing rct Internet cop?
MikeR - yes, the general idea with the long wheelbase is to allow as many as possible RTR cars to participate without modification. We do see a good mix of cars (although the Blaze\Vendetta\LRP SHark is most popular) such as Exotek's (I myself have run the Exotek in several nationals), RC18B and RC18T, M18T Pro, Mini Inferno's, Mini-T's and some custom made Mini-B's with longer chassis, Tamiya Tamtech Gear, etc.
The all in one class rule actually makes things far simpler and easy to scrutineer as the scrutineers have far less to worry about. It also allows freedom for people to drive what they want, keep costs low and the attitude has been good about the various cars competing. We don't get too hung up on slight weight differences or wheelbase differences, as long as it fits it can compete.
We've had some big names place stock standard cars on podiums - Keith Roberts put a stock RC18T on the podium and Mark Stiles put a stock M18T on the podium and Fabien put a Mini-Inferno ST KMRC on a podium amongst the sea of Blaze's. These are cars that vary in weight from 550gr to about 800gr and wheelbase from 156mm to 184mm!! so if anything, I am convinced (as I've seen it happen in nationals) that any car has the capability of winning in the right hands.
At the end of the day it's about having fun and being with friends and it's easy to get lost in all sorts of rules. We should not forget these are toy cars we are racing.
Sounds like you guys have it figured out pretty well. Lots of people running all sorts of things including a variety of cars in a multitude of configurations. Seems a lot better than the parade of the same car one right after another on the grid.
ok, let's be constructive and we should try to find out some general rule for onroad and offroad.
I'm not an offroad racer but I understand that there is a lot of car out there.
That is the real issue here....general rules....the manufacturers of 1/18 scale
vehicles have no real sense of being true to scale. In the big picture some vehicles will have advantages and others will suffer. This scale of racing to make people happy aqlmost has to be brand specific.....
ex...X-Ray 1/18 onroad Worlds open to xray based cars....
Anderson 1/18 offroad worlds open to all anderson based buggys/trucks
AE 1/18 Worlds open to all AE based vehicles.....
Me personally I race to have fun first....winning or placing well is the icing on my cake. I have met a lot of racers in my travels and what made me enjoy 1/18 scale is/was the friendly atmosphere. Now take into effect we are evolving this scale to a world class level what does that do to us???
How much will it cost to travel to a World race??? Who will pay? The factories??? The racer??? Next who will go??? The guys/gals who have the most $$$. If you are lucky enough to live near the location you will/can compete. How many people are in for a worldsrace in the UK???
Howmany are in if the race is in the US ( CT ismy choice but for arguements sake lets say FL...(relatively cheap place to fly to from everywhere in the US)
Now tell me who is in????
Ok this is a long one. I think after this I will stop replying on this specific point because I have said all I can trying to make others understand where we are going wrong in our scale in this lax.
Frogger:
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The all in one class rule actually makes things far simpler and easy to scrutineer as the scrutineers have far less to worry about. It also allows freedom for people to drive what they want, keep costs low and the attitude has been good about the various cars competing. We don't get too hung up on slight weight differences or wheelbase differences, as long as it fits it can compete.
Against this:
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There are no weight restrictions - lighter cars such as the RC18's has so far proven not to have any advantage at all over a whole season's worth of racing, if anything, the heavier cars are at an advantage and all titles in the BRCA series were won with Blaze\LRP\Vendetta variants. We only had an XRay M18 and a RC18 on the podium once or twice but never in first place as far as I remember
So on one hand, your are trying to say its fair and fun for all. But earlier you admit that one platform is dominating against others with what are smaller dimensions or weights.
Which is it? Do you see the conflict that arises for a team at this point? Your rules have benefited the larger sizes. Whether that be rims, track, or wheelbases (IMO). Your own comments back this up. I in fact remember reading a thread at the Micro Uk forum about a team driver for another platform admitting they were at a disadvantage running their regular scale tires against the vehicles running the larger sedans. I'm sorry to say, as I told you already. You already have politics arising with the rules you have now.
Thats your country though. Thats your local rules and what works for you all. Now, if you want to be the host country for a Worlds. How are you again accommodating the micro scene as a whole with what I believe have shown to be rules that aren't exactly non partisan?
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I wonder if there is another underlying theme here. There are the people that SPECIFICALLY only race 1/18th. Versus those of us here that run larger scales, with 1/18th as one of their choices/sides. For this latter, since you already have to deal with specific rules in larger scales, you try to use the smaller ones as a release valve where you can throw a vehicle down without worrying about who says what.
For the former (example: me), since to us, this is our main racing, we want things as organized as possible. So if we lose it's because of being beat skill wise, versus instead a combination of larger physics putting our own platforms at a disadvantage. Instead of working with one platform or manufacturer we have to get into the platform of the week constantly buying another to "keep up with the Jones". Ruining this scale for us and either forcing us to pay for larger scales (which is one of the bigger draws of 1/18th), or dropping out of racing.
If 1/18th continues to the lax or no rules, it can never be seriously considered by the other scales. At some point, we have to say "No, your vehicle or tire is not allowed". Sending a message to manufacturers to shape up, or ship out as far as racing. My most negative message thus far I must iterate: We will never be able to evolve to this worlds level and eventually fail racing wise if we do nothing about this.
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Last edited by oXYnary; 05-14-2008 at 12:33 PM.
Reason: heh I said run instead of wrong.
I wonder if there is another underlying theme here. There are the people that SPECIFICALLY only race 1/18th. Versus those of us here that run larger scales, with 1/18th as one of their choices/sides. For this latter, since you already have to deal with specific rules in larger scales, you try to use the smaller ones as a release valve where you can throw a vehicle down without worrying about who says what.
For the former (example: me), since to us, this is our main racing, we want things as organized as possible. So if we lose it's because of being beat skill wise, versus instead a combination of larger physics putting our own platforms at a disadvantage. Instead of working with one platform or manufacturer we have to get into the platform of the week constantly buying another to "keep up with the Jones". Ruining this scale for us and either forcing us to pay for larger scales (which is one of the bigger draws of 1/18th), or dropping out of racing.
If 1/18th continues to the lax or no rules, it can never be seriously considered by the other scales. At some point, we have to say "No, your vehicle or tire is not allowed". Sending a message to manufacturers to shape up, or ship out as far as racing. My most negative message thus far I must iterate: We will never be able to evolve to this worlds level and eventually fail racing wise if we do nothing about this.
Of course there is an underlying theme here - it's that people are doing all sorts of things in areas of the U.S., and the world, other than one little corner the small state of Connecticut.
The simple truth is that motorsports, including RC racing, is an ever-evolving deal. Vehicles changes are constant. Just look at 1/10th scale electric - it's totally different than it was 20 years ago. Or is someone suggesting that going back to gold pan AEs and Kyosho Ultimas WITH NO SLIPPER CLUTCHES is a good thing? Or is it okay for vehicles to progress as the engineering involved evolves designs?
And then let's address the whole wheelbase discussion. The simple truth is that if you compared a 1/10th XXX-T (that btw the new one has an extended chassis compared to last year's model) and measured it up against a MiniT (via doing some comparative SIMPLE math) you'd find that the MiniT is out of proportion - it's too square in comparison. And it'd be my guess that it doesn't stop there and other brands have their own problems too.
It's not that rules are a bad thing, but at the same time it's got to be something that's allowed to evolve instead of us little batch of 1/18th-ers going enmass to the manufacturers and telling them - hell no, we don't want you, take the tires you spent your money making for us and burn 'em because we ain't allowing 'em (but check back because our rules might be different next year).
Just how long do you think the manufacturers are going to support 1/18th scale?
Jeez louise - can't we be open-minded enough to know that everyone isn't going to be doing it the same everywhere? Can't we all just get along? Can't we be damn skippy happy we have several vehicle platforms to choose from - or would some of you be happier spec racing?
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