Price Match Guarentee to even HK Packs
08-06-2010, 12:13 PM
#1
Price Match Guarentee to even HK Packs
There was a discussion about price matching packs and build specs including the cheap stuff from HK as stated by austin on RCGroups.
Unfortunately, thread got closed to do inappropriate comments I am assuming, so I would like to continue the discussion if possible, here is what I was typing before it got closed:
Based on what I gather on other sites, the common desire from those who would like to purchase maxamps packs or have purchased them in the past would be for a lower cost option. I for one fall into this category and would like to see that as an option.
From the sound sof things, Maxamps appears willing to do and had done (from what one person had posted on receiving his packs on RCGroups) packs that are along the lines of HK grade. Heck, maybe that should be the name of the pack line, the HKs, (can't help but think of skynet
).
I almost wish this was the big announcement in conjunctions with the multicell packs as I can see it as a big request from people on a budget is a budget line. (Can I get a 4x4 SCT too! )
Anyway, my questions for austin & maxamps in general about this program:
For me, I would be interested in packs like this:
Turnigy 4500mAh 4S 30C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=10869
and this:
Turnigy 5000mAh 2S2P 7.4v 40C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=11614
- What can you make that would fit these specs?
- Is it possible to pay extra for more features since maxamps packs are custom made in general anyway? (warranty type, wire thickness, connector, etc)
- Are you rating your Surge C rating versus there Constant C Rating for comparison?
- some of the turnigy stuff uses really thick wire, which I am assuming would cost more than using a smaller gauge, is that factured in to the cost calculation (say 10 gauge on the turnigy and 12 gauge on Maxamps HK pack?)
Unfortunately, thread got closed to do inappropriate comments I am assuming, so I would like to continue the discussion if possible, here is what I was typing before it got closed:
Based on what I gather on other sites, the common desire from those who would like to purchase maxamps packs or have purchased them in the past would be for a lower cost option. I for one fall into this category and would like to see that as an option.
From the sound sof things, Maxamps appears willing to do and had done (from what one person had posted on receiving his packs on RCGroups) packs that are along the lines of HK grade. Heck, maybe that should be the name of the pack line, the HKs, (can't help but think of skynet
).I almost wish this was the big announcement in conjunctions with the multicell packs as I can see it as a big request from people on a budget is a budget line. (Can I get a 4x4 SCT too!
)Anyway, my questions for austin & maxamps in general about this program:
For me, I would be interested in packs like this:
Turnigy 4500mAh 4S 30C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=10869
and this:
Turnigy 5000mAh 2S2P 7.4v 40C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=11614
- What can you make that would fit these specs?
- Is it possible to pay extra for more features since maxamps packs are custom made in general anyway? (warranty type, wire thickness, connector, etc)
- Are you rating your Surge C rating versus there Constant C Rating for comparison?
- some of the turnigy stuff uses really thick wire, which I am assuming would cost more than using a smaller gauge, is that factured in to the cost calculation (say 10 gauge on the turnigy and 12 gauge on Maxamps HK pack?)
08-06-2010, 12:39 PM
#2
Tech Adept
There was a discussion about price matching packs and build specs including the cheap stuff from HK as stated by austin on RCGroups.
Unfortunately, thread got closed to do inappropriate comments I am assuming, so I would like to continue the discussion if possible, here is what I was typing before it got closed:
Based on what I gather on other sites, the common desire from those who would like to purchase maxamps packs or have purchased them in the past would be for a lower cost option. I for one fall into this category and would like to see that as an option.
From the sound sof things, Maxamps appears willing to do and had done (from what one person had posted on receiving his packs on RCGroups) packs that are along the lines of HK grade. Heck, maybe that should be the name of the pack line, the HKs, (can't help but think of skynet).
I almost wish this was the big announcement in conjunctions with the multicell packs as I can see it as a big request from people on a budget is a budget line. (Can I get a 4x4 SCT too! )
Anyway, my questions for austin & maxamps in general about this program:
For me, I would be interested in packs like this:
Turnigy 4500mAh 4S 30C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=10869
and this:
Turnigy 5000mAh 2S2P 7.4v 40C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=11614
- What can you make that would fit these specs?
- Is it possible to pay extra for more features since maxamps packs are custom made in general anyway? (warranty type, wire thickness, connector, etc)
- Are you rating your Surge C rating versus there Constant C Rating for comparison?
- some of the turnigy stuff uses really thick wire, which I am assuming would cost more than using a smaller gauge, is that factured in to the cost calculation (say 10 gauge on the turnigy and 12 gauge on Maxamps HK pack?)
Unfortunately, thread got closed to do inappropriate comments I am assuming, so I would like to continue the discussion if possible, here is what I was typing before it got closed:
Based on what I gather on other sites, the common desire from those who would like to purchase maxamps packs or have purchased them in the past would be for a lower cost option. I for one fall into this category and would like to see that as an option.
From the sound sof things, Maxamps appears willing to do and had done (from what one person had posted on receiving his packs on RCGroups) packs that are along the lines of HK grade. Heck, maybe that should be the name of the pack line, the HKs, (can't help but think of skynet
).I almost wish this was the big announcement in conjunctions with the multicell packs as I can see it as a big request from people on a budget is a budget line. (Can I get a 4x4 SCT too!
)Anyway, my questions for austin & maxamps in general about this program:
For me, I would be interested in packs like this:
Turnigy 4500mAh 4S 30C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=10869
and this:
Turnigy 5000mAh 2S2P 7.4v 40C hardcase pack
http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store...dProduct=11614
- What can you make that would fit these specs?
- Is it possible to pay extra for more features since maxamps packs are custom made in general anyway? (warranty type, wire thickness, connector, etc)
- Are you rating your Surge C rating versus there Constant C Rating for comparison?
- some of the turnigy stuff uses really thick wire, which I am assuming would cost more than using a smaller gauge, is that factured in to the cost calculation (say 10 gauge on the turnigy and 12 gauge on Maxamps HK pack?)
Frankly, I was on the edge about the program anyways. I can not send out poor quality products with our name on them. It is a huge risk. People expect more from a USA based company.
I can not tell a customer "sorry your pack arrived out of balance, its your problem" or "sorry you only got 10 cycles out of your pack" but there is nothing we can do for you, etc.
I have pretty much come to the conclusion that we will not be able to compete on price with overseas companies. I am not willing to cheat on import taxes and duties. I am not willing to get the lower grade cells with a 25-50% failure rate that I would need to get to compete on price. I am not willing to have packs made overseas for us. I am not willing to sell "knock offs" of deans/traxxas plugs as the overseas and many USA based companies are willing to do. Basically, I am not willing to compromise our integrity to offer a cheap price. We have thousands of loyal customers who are willing to pay a fair price for a quality and service. Our packs are not cheap but they are the best packs on the market. You can not have both. I think most people understand that.
By the way, the reason they use big thick wire is because it is low strand count. We use deans ultra wire. The higher the strand count, the higher the amp draw it can handle. High strand count 14 awg wire can handle more current than low strand count 10/8 awg wire. The high strand count wire is expensive. The low strand count wire is not.
We are doing everything we can to lower our costs/prices. I worked with the factory to get a volume discount on the cells for the new mulit-voltage MV5250 packs. They are priced at much less than tradtional packs. A 6 cell kit puts the price of a 7.4V 5250 pack at around $75. That 6 cell kit is also 8 packs in one(3 2S, 2 3S, 1 4S, 1 5S, 1 6S). That is a win-win and real value that nobody else offers.
We offer a no-hassle solution with the best performance and value on the market.
08-06-2010, 12:42 PM
#3
Tech Master
iTrader: (31)
We tried the price match for a while. We had one person take advantage of it so we decided to discontinue it.
Frankly, I was on the edge about the program anyways. I can not send out poor quality products with our name on them. It is a huge risk. People expect more from a USA based company.
I can not tell a customer "sorry your pack arrived out of balance, its your problem" or "sorry you only got 10 cycles out of your pack" but there is nothing we can do for you, etc.
I have pretty much come to the conclusion that we will not be able to compete on price with overseas companies. I am not willing to cheat on import taxes and duties. I am not willing to get the lower grade cells with a 25-50% failure rate that I would need to get to compete on price. I am not willing to have packs made overseas for us. I am not willing to sell "knock offs" of deans/traxxas plugs as the overseas and many USA based companies are willing to do. Basically, I am not willing to compromise our integrity to offer a cheap price. We have thousands of loyal customers who are willing to pay a fair price for a quality and service. Our packs are not cheap but they are the best packs on the market. You can not have both. I think most people understand that.
By the way, the reason they use big thick wire is because it is low strand count. We use deans ultra wire. The higher the strand count, the higher the amp draw it can handle. High strand count 14 awg wire can handle more current than low strand count 10/8 awg wire. The high strand count wire is expensive. The low strand count wire is not.
We are doing everything we can to lower our costs/prices. I worked with the factory to get a volume discount on the cells for the new mulit-voltage MV5250 packs. They are priced at much less than tradtional packs. A 6 cell kit puts the price of a 7.4V 5250 pack at around $75. That 6 cell kit is also 8 packs in one(3 2S, 2 3S, 1 4S, 1 5S, 1 6S). That is a win-win and real value that nobody else offers.
We offer a no-hassle solution with the best performance and value on the market.
Frankly, I was on the edge about the program anyways. I can not send out poor quality products with our name on them. It is a huge risk. People expect more from a USA based company.
I can not tell a customer "sorry your pack arrived out of balance, its your problem" or "sorry you only got 10 cycles out of your pack" but there is nothing we can do for you, etc.
I have pretty much come to the conclusion that we will not be able to compete on price with overseas companies. I am not willing to cheat on import taxes and duties. I am not willing to get the lower grade cells with a 25-50% failure rate that I would need to get to compete on price. I am not willing to have packs made overseas for us. I am not willing to sell "knock offs" of deans/traxxas plugs as the overseas and many USA based companies are willing to do. Basically, I am not willing to compromise our integrity to offer a cheap price. We have thousands of loyal customers who are willing to pay a fair price for a quality and service. Our packs are not cheap but they are the best packs on the market. You can not have both. I think most people understand that.
By the way, the reason they use big thick wire is because it is low strand count. We use deans ultra wire. The higher the strand count, the higher the amp draw it can handle. High strand count 14 awg wire can handle more current than low strand count 10/8 awg wire. The high strand count wire is expensive. The low strand count wire is not.
We are doing everything we can to lower our costs/prices. I worked with the factory to get a volume discount on the cells for the new mulit-voltage MV5250 packs. They are priced at much less than tradtional packs. A 6 cell kit puts the price of a 7.4V 5250 pack at around $75. That 6 cell kit is also 8 packs in one(3 2S, 2 3S, 1 4S, 1 5S, 1 6S). That is a win-win and real value that nobody else offers.
We offer a no-hassle solution with the best performance and value on the market.
I could only imagine the bull you would go through if you told a customer...."not my problem" or "nothing we can do" if they called with an out of balanced pack!
Last edited by Marcos.J; 08-09-2010 at 09:59 AM. Reason: language
08-06-2010, 12:52 PM
#4
I wish I had known about the price match thing, when did that start? in the RCGroups thread it looks like July 13th is that correct? Darn! 
Here is a question then, for packs that are not HK specials and are sold in the USA through USA distributors, can you make something that will match them in the price and specs?
Example:
Venom LiPo 4S 14.8V 5000mAh 35C Hard Case Univ System http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXZDW0&P=ML
PRICE: $99.99 (not including any tower discounts)
SPECS:
Battery Type: Lithium Polymer
Configuration: 4S1P
Weight: 520g (18.57oz)
Dimensions: 139mm x 46mm x 49mm (5.5"x1.8"x1.9")
Charge Rate: 5.0A
Continuous Discharge: 35C (175A)
Max Burst Rate: 50C (250A)
Min Discharge Volts Per Pack: 12.0V
Max Volts Per Cell: 4.2V
Max Volts Per Pack: 16.8V
Watt Hours: 74
This is a pack sold in the USA and I believe is also ROAR legal.
it also the following warranty:
http://www.venom-group.com/help_cent...y&question=262
Thoughts?
Here is a question then, for packs that are not HK specials and are sold in the USA through USA distributors, can you make something that will match them in the price and specs?
Example:
Venom LiPo 4S 14.8V 5000mAh 35C Hard Case Univ System http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXZDW0&P=ML
PRICE: $99.99 (not including any tower discounts)
SPECS:
Battery Type: Lithium Polymer
Configuration: 4S1P
Weight: 520g (18.57oz)
Dimensions: 139mm x 46mm x 49mm (5.5"x1.8"x1.9")
Charge Rate: 5.0A
Continuous Discharge: 35C (175A)
Max Burst Rate: 50C (250A)
Min Discharge Volts Per Pack: 12.0V
Max Volts Per Cell: 4.2V
Max Volts Per Pack: 16.8V
Watt Hours: 74
This is a pack sold in the USA and I believe is also ROAR legal.
it also the following warranty:
http://www.venom-group.com/help_cent...y&question=262
Venom Lifetime Battery Replacement Plan: Lifetime Warranty Information
We are so sure about the quality of our batteries that we offer (and have for years) a Venom Lifetime Battery Replacement Plan on all of our rechargeable batteries. First year is a 100% unconditional replacement (we do however reserve the right to deny replacement to any serial abusers of our policy). Year 2 onward, any Venom battery can be exchange for a brand new battery of same size and type for 30% off the retail price for consumers or 50% off the retail price for dealers, no questions asked.
We are so sure about the quality of our batteries that we offer (and have for years) a Venom Lifetime Battery Replacement Plan on all of our rechargeable batteries. First year is a 100% unconditional replacement (we do however reserve the right to deny replacement to any serial abusers of our policy). Year 2 onward, any Venom battery can be exchange for a brand new battery of same size and type for 30% off the retail price for consumers or 50% off the retail price for dealers, no questions asked.
08-06-2010, 01:03 PM
#5
Tech Adept
I wish I had known about the price match thing, when did that start? in the RCGroups thread it looks like July 13th is that correct? Darn!
Here is a question then, for packs that are not HK specials and are sold in the USA through USA distributors, can you make something that will match them in the price and specs?
Example:
Venom LiPo 4S 14.8V 5000mAh 35C Hard Case Univ System http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXZDW0&P=ML
PRICE: $99.99 (not including any tower discounts)
SPECS:
Battery Type: Lithium Polymer
Configuration: 4S1P
Weight: 520g (18.57oz)
Dimensions: 139mm x 46mm x 49mm (5.5"x1.8"x1.9")
Charge Rate: 5.0A
Continuous Discharge: 35C (175A)
Max Burst Rate: 50C (250A)
Min Discharge Volts Per Pack: 12.0V
Max Volts Per Cell: 4.2V
Max Volts Per Pack: 16.8V
Watt Hours: 74
This is a pack sold in the USA and I believe is also ROAR legal.
it also the following warranty:
http://www.venom-group.com/help_cent...y&question=262
Thoughts?
Here is a question then, for packs that are not HK specials and are sold in the USA through USA distributors, can you make something that will match them in the price and specs?
Example:
Venom LiPo 4S 14.8V 5000mAh 35C Hard Case Univ System http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXZDW0&P=ML
PRICE: $99.99 (not including any tower discounts)
SPECS:
Battery Type: Lithium Polymer
Configuration: 4S1P
Weight: 520g (18.57oz)
Dimensions: 139mm x 46mm x 49mm (5.5"x1.8"x1.9")
Charge Rate: 5.0A
Continuous Discharge: 35C (175A)
Max Burst Rate: 50C (250A)
Min Discharge Volts Per Pack: 12.0V
Max Volts Per Cell: 4.2V
Max Volts Per Pack: 16.8V
Watt Hours: 74
This is a pack sold in the USA and I believe is also ROAR legal.
it also the following warranty:
http://www.venom-group.com/help_cent...y&question=262
Thoughts?
08-06-2010, 01:08 PM
#6
great. hectic time these days with a new family addition, is it possible to speak with you via the chat program you guys have?
Also, what are you thoughts on that multi connector thing? I like the concept for sure, just curious about durability.
Also, what are you thoughts on that multi connector thing? I like the concept for sure, just curious about durability.
08-06-2010, 02:20 PM
#7
Tech Adept
Yep, I will be available on live support on Monday. Just ask for me.
08-08-2010, 04:41 AM
#8
Couple of questions:
You mention HK packs have a 25-50% failure rate, now I have in my time bought 4 packs from Max Amps, 2 failed = 50% failure rate. I have bought 6 packs from HK and none have failed.
Also, you claim that their wire is "low strand count" can you substantiate this? Have you physically counted the strands, or even compared the two side by side?
I have no problems paying for a pack if it is in fact of superior quality, however to my knowledge Max Amps have repeatedly been asked on many forums to show a discharge graph of their packs, as brands such as Polyquest openly do on their website. Max Amps also rates their packs in a manner completely different to almost EVERY other pack out there by going by Surge Watts as opposed to C rating. If your products are as good as you say they are, lets compare apples to apples.
You mention HK packs have a 25-50% failure rate, now I have in my time bought 4 packs from Max Amps, 2 failed = 50% failure rate. I have bought 6 packs from HK and none have failed.
Also, you claim that their wire is "low strand count" can you substantiate this? Have you physically counted the strands, or even compared the two side by side?
I have no problems paying for a pack if it is in fact of superior quality, however to my knowledge Max Amps have repeatedly been asked on many forums to show a discharge graph of their packs, as brands such as Polyquest openly do on their website. Max Amps also rates their packs in a manner completely different to almost EVERY other pack out there by going by Surge Watts as opposed to C rating. If your products are as good as you say they are, lets compare apples to apples.
08-08-2010, 09:01 AM
#10
Tech Adept
Couple of questions:
You mention HK packs have a 25-50% failure rate, now I have in my time bought 4 packs from Max Amps, 2 failed = 50% failure rate. I have bought 6 packs from HK and none have failed.
Also, you claim that their wire is "low strand count" can you substantiate this? Have you physically counted the strands, or even compared the two side by side?
I have no problems paying for a pack if it is in fact of superior quality, however to my knowledge Max Amps have repeatedly been asked on many forums to show a discharge graph of their packs, as brands such as Polyquest openly do on their website. Max Amps also rates their packs in a manner completely different to almost EVERY other pack out there by going by Surge Watts as opposed to C rating. If your products are as good as you say they are, lets compare apples to apples.
You mention HK packs have a 25-50% failure rate, now I have in my time bought 4 packs from Max Amps, 2 failed = 50% failure rate. I have bought 6 packs from HK and none have failed.
Also, you claim that their wire is "low strand count" can you substantiate this? Have you physically counted the strands, or even compared the two side by side?
I have no problems paying for a pack if it is in fact of superior quality, however to my knowledge Max Amps have repeatedly been asked on many forums to show a discharge graph of their packs, as brands such as Polyquest openly do on their website. Max Amps also rates their packs in a manner completely different to almost EVERY other pack out there by going by Surge Watts as opposed to C rating. If your products are as good as you say they are, lets compare apples to apples.
The answer to low strand/high strand count is an easy one. I can get you the exact strand cound on Monday for the deans wire. I think it is around 1660 strands. You can compare it to the strand count on your current packs and you will find that there is a large difference. I can even send you a couple inches of our wire if you want to compare it. There is a huge difference.
There are lots of reasons that we don't offer discharge graphs. First off, you would not believe them. We have sent tons of packs out to 3rd party testers and have had tons of reviews.
Do you really believe discharge graphs posted by manufacturers? I test cells every week that look completely different than "manufacturers" discharge curves. I have tested "100C" cells with beautiful discharge graphs that can not hold over 3.2V at 20C. I can do a graph for you but there is no standard for how to test the cells. Here are a few things to consider.
1. What amp rate should we test them at?
2. What is an acceptable voltage drop?
3. What is an acceptable temp range?
4. Should we test loose cells or a pack?
5. Should we include wire on the cells/pack?
6. Should we include plugs on the cells/pack?
7. How many cycles should it last at the amp rate that we test it at? 1 cycle? 10 cycles? 300 cycles?
8. Should it be done at the same amp rate for the whole time or should it burst up and down?
9. Should we under rate capacity to increase C rate?
10. Should we cool the packs/cells durring discharge?
These questions are the problem with discharge curves. They are meaningless unless every manufacturer uses the same standards. The honest companies get the short end of the stick because we are not willing to "cook the books" so to speak.
When was the last time you used a single loose cell hooked directly to your speed control with no wire or plug and a fan on the cell. Then you just pulled the throttle down to full throttle and kept it there untill the battery died?
The current "C rating" system that others are using is meaningless and useless for comparing cells for use in rc cars.
With our testing system, we test the packs in a real life scenario. You can see the details of EXACTLY how we test our packs on our website under the lipo info section. There are no secrets here and no lies. It is the most honest rating system available. Since all the motor and speed control manufacturers also use surge watts, it makes it very easy to determine the right pack for your vehicle. We also test our packs on our track with rc cars. Sometimes it 100 degrees outside when we test, sometimes its 20 degrees. We test in real life scenarios. Its a simple, honest system and it WORKS. That is why we can offer a 3 year 300 cycle warranty. We know our packs will hold up to the beating that rc guys put on the packs.
We don't do anything "just because everyone else does". We were the first to provide lipos for rc cars because it made sense. If we would have done what everyone else was doing, then we would still be selling Nimh cells.
-Austin
Last edited by austinelse; 08-08-2010 at 09:27 AM.
08-10-2010, 12:14 PM
#11
Tech Master
iTrader: (31)
NEXXUS - you have soooo many gripes! Just don't buy their packs. Everyone has their own business philosophy, and theirs is just different from others (but seams to be successful).
Or....go out and open your own factory and sell the crap out of batteries!
There are Mercedes and there are Kias. Yes, both have engines, tires, and wheels. However the quality and standards of the Mercedes are worth the price versus the Kia.
Or....go out and open your own factory and sell the crap out of batteries!
There are Mercedes and there are Kias. Yes, both have engines, tires, and wheels. However the quality and standards of the Mercedes are worth the price versus the Kia.
08-10-2010, 04:35 PM
#12
NEXXUS - you have soooo many gripes! Just don't buy their packs. Everyone has their own business philosophy, and theirs is just different from others (but seams to be successful).
Or....go out and open your own factory and sell the crap out of batteries!
There are Mercedes and there are Kias. Yes, both have engines, tires, and wheels. However the quality and standards of the Mercedes are worth the price versus the Kia.
Or....go out and open your own factory and sell the crap out of batteries!
There are Mercedes and there are Kias. Yes, both have engines, tires, and wheels. However the quality and standards of the Mercedes are worth the price versus the Kia.
specially when you factor in routine maintenance costs etc etc.
08-14-2010, 06:49 AM
#13
This isn't a true statement, especially when one of the higher volume brushless ESC manufacturers Castle does not list their speed controllers with surge. I even took the time to verify that with them directly since if it were true I would need to re-evaluate the configurations of my Mamba Monsters across my vehicles.
08-14-2010, 05:46 PM
#14
Are surge and burst ratings different? The words sound like they could mean the same and I'm so used to reading Constant C ratings everywhere that I am embarrassed to say I don't know what a "surge" rating even means? 
And Nexxus, that's the same guy who wrote on another thread, " he has a low post count and no trader rating so clearly he has no concept of purchasing online."
And Nexxus, that's the same guy who wrote on another thread, " he has a low post count and no trader rating so clearly he has no concept of purchasing online."
08-15-2010, 05:05 PM
#15
Tech Addict
iTrader: (3)
NEXXUS - you have soooo many gripes! Just don't buy their packs. Everyone has their own business philosophy, and theirs is just different from others (but seams to be successful).
Or....go out and open your own factory and sell the crap out of batteries!
There are Mercedes and there are Kias. Yes, both have engines, tires, and wheels. However the quality and standards of the Mercedes are worth the price versus the Kia.
Or....go out and open your own factory and sell the crap out of batteries!
There are Mercedes and there are Kias. Yes, both have engines, tires, and wheels. However the quality and standards of the Mercedes are worth the price versus the Kia.
I choose to run Max Amps. And that's is just the plain and simple of it.
Trying to convince a business owner that they are not doing good business, in this case is just a bunch of BS. Max Amps has a far superior product and is
made in the USA. Beside's the awesome warranty they have.
HK is just the kind of battery you use for bashing, cost is cheap and work well enough to break your ride. If you choose to support a foriegn economy
feel free, but don't then complain about the US economy. As your contributing to the poor US economy.
