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Old 08-11-2017, 08:52 AM   #1
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Default Handout Motors?..2018?

Well before we(racers) get completly lost in this new game. I really want to have a very open and honest discussion about "hand-out" motors and will it work.

Your sponsorship,friends,influence, or money should not come into play.

We see some of the larger events in Onroad going this route for the reason is that....

a. to gain attendance
b. slow down the motor wars
c. get guys into mod tc

handout motors have been tried in the past and failed. Racers have bought "one" time motors for $30-$60 each and after the event the motor was trash or worthless. I personally went through this and could not even give the $40 investment away.

We have to look at the big overall picture. Are we really helping?...We have a motor war?..I saw 60 USGT cars at a event on only 3 wasnt the new gen motor. 2 of those are sponsored and was required to run the last gen motor, the other was just there for kicks and giggles.

But thats what I dont understand, these handout and new fractions in rules are because of what?....let me show you something

Snowbirds 54
US Indoor Champs 68
IIC Vegas 67
ROAR Nats 57

these are all 17.5 Touring Cars, and lets not talk about the Canadian Nationals which had almost 100...

So Im curious, this is the largest class at almost every US/Canada Onroad event, and we want to change it? Please help me understand...and I dont even like TC, but I understand numbers and business. And if guys are willing to drop $85-$200 on a entry to a class thats 50 cars deep....why are we looking to add a handout motor to the mix. Or is it just me?

please chime in and let see what Im missing, or not
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:58 AM   #2
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Main reason that I see is because right now it is too easy to drop $100-150 for the current fast motor only to arrive at the race and learn that there is a newer motor that is even faster. So now you are either behind before the race even starts, or you are out another $100-150 to get that new motor to be competitive.

Handouts/spec worked just fine in the brushed days. Sure they were cheaper but you can't really say that it failed in that era.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:01 AM   #3
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https://www.amainhobbies.com/team-tr...ep1841/p536325

im sure the price can be lower if a deal is worked out with trinity , like the old days of the CO27

or maybe Motiv can come up with a locked timing MC"3" spec motors
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:05 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by R Dodge View Post
Main reason that I see is because right now it is too easy to drop $100-150 for the current fast motor only to arrive at the race and learn that there is a newer motor that is even faster. So now you are either behind before the race even starts, or you are out another $100-150 to get that new motor to be competitive.

Handouts/spec worked just fine in the brushed days. Sure they were cheaper but you can't really say that it failed in that era.
Only thing I can say to oppose this, is the new ROAR rule to help this from happening was just put in place. Why don't we wait and see if the rule helps the "motor of the month" stuff? As for the brushed days, when I came back from a race, my brushed motors went in the box and my "good" motor came out. I got to do something to "try" to keep up with Drew, lol.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:08 AM   #5
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Also, in the brushed hand-out days, it was buy all 3 motors your were allowed, give all three to Sean, EA, or Dieter, then run the one they tell you to at the rollout they tell you, lol.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:09 AM   #6
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For me I race at "large" races that dont use a handout motor. I personally only buy 1 motor prior to the first "large" race i attend and its generally fast throughout the whole season... until the new stuff drops next year. So now I have to drop 150 on a motor and then another 40+ on another paperweight, per class. And this could be per "large" race i attend. So now im out 200 bucks a class for a regular motor and a spec motor... racing just got more expensive, unless everyone does this.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by R Dodge View Post
Main reason that I see is because right now it is too easy to drop $100-150 for the current fast motor only to arrive at the race and learn that there is a newer motor that is even faster. So now you are either behind before the race even starts, or you are out another $100-150 to get that new motor to be competitive.

Handouts/spec worked just fine in the brushed days. Sure they were cheaper but you can't really say that it failed in that era.
well with ROAR stepping up and putting strick rules for 21.5-13.5 motors like with 25.5...isnt this the true solution. I dont thing its going to be much wiggle room when they are done to really see a huge difference. In yours or EA hands maybe, but for 99% of us no. The currect crop of motors are winning across the board...TSR,Trinity,Motiv,Fantom, ect...do you think one is truly better than the other...yes all the companys are scrabbling to get in before the Sept 1st deadline....but how much better are we really thinking these spec motors are going to get.

Just like with the 25.5's and I have tested plenty of them...some are RPM, some are Torque, and some have a good mix....but they are all on par when it comes to winning and performance.

And the fact is most of us are sheep and follow the fast guy in what is in his car...true fact, EA can run any motor he choses, and everyone at my track will buy it...why, hell he is EA, the fast guy. Not picking Eric, but you could put in a old Reedy M2 17.5 and make it sing....we seen Skeen do it...

The thing is, most of us have the new motors already...will the next gen motors really be that much better?...I dont think so
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
https://www.amainhobbies.com/team-tr...ep1841/p536325

im sure the price can be lower if a deal is worked out with trinity , like the old days of the CO27

or maybe Motiv can come up with a locked timing MC"3" spec motors
that is a great idea...only one problem...all the lock spec motors are different...the Trinity and Hobbywing have totally different make up...as well as the new Reedy Powered 17.5 ...and Ill bet the Scream and Motiv will be too...

only solution would be for ROAR to assign a Motor and Company to the class.. But wait ROAR cant do that, remember Novak and VTA?..

Well how about the major events assign a motor for all the races?...nope, example Tekin is the handout in Vegas, they dropped $$$$ to have their motor used as the spec....do the have the funds to sponsor Birds, Classis and ROAR?...I doubt it, and more importantly, why would they want to?..

If all the handouts you could use between each major event, then it makes sense...but then you leave racers a chance to change the motor and tinker with it.

so where does that leave us?
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:23 AM   #9
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Myron:

Spot on!

I don't get why guys think they are losing because of motor. It's not your motor guys!

Our locals were sure it was motor, so we ran a spec motor usgt series, and guess what the same guys were on top, basically the entire finish order was the same. Now we don't talk about it anymore

talk about wasting money:
If I have a motor I use at club races and then I have to buy a handout motor at big races I just spent more than if I had an $$ motor.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:32 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by thecaptain View Post
For me I race at "large" races that dont use a handout motor. I personally only buy 1 motor prior to the first "large" race i attend and its generally fast throughout the whole season... until the new stuff drops next year. So now I have to drop 150 on a motor and then another 40+ on another paperweight, per class. And this could be per "large" race i attend. So now im out 200 bucks a class for a regular motor and a spec motor... racing just got more expensive, unless everyone does this.
this is a huge concern....some of us attend all the major events...like Dirla, by the time Birds rolls around he would have around 6 handout motors in his pit?...average $40 each...$240, on top of everything else. Cause you still need that "good" motor to race at other events that dont have handout and club races.

and while Im here...lets stop the $150-$200 motor stuff...if a racer whats to try and buy a win, please let him....its no different than most of you having at least 2, $100 motors....I have yet to see a "racer" not have 2 motors...so lets get off this BS. Everybody has a back-up motor, for almost any class

even if you think its to high?...which seems that way...but If I look at the $100 motor, and ask a motor guy like EA(sorry bud) to tune it for me and he charges me $50 to do it?...what was the arguement again.

2nd point is...$150 Scream motor with all the bells and whistles and fast as anything on the market, and I dont need anything extra, not even a back up motor...I just saved $50 dollars

3rd point, some $100 motors are just as good as the $150-$200 motors, so get your own bearings and equipment to test sensor board IR gauss ect and see what that runs the pocket $$$
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:37 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
well with ROAR stepping up and putting strick rules for 21.5-13.5 motors like with 25.5...isnt this the true solution. I dont thing its going to be much wiggle room when they are done to really see a huge difference. In yours or EA hands maybe, but for 99% of us no. The currect crop of motors are winning across the board...TSR,Trinity,Motiv,Fantom, ect...do you think one is truly better than the other...yes all the companys are scrabbling to get in before the Sept 1st deadline....but how much better are we really thinking these spec motors are going to get.

Just like with the 25.5's and I have tested plenty of them...some are RPM, some are Torque, and some have a good mix....but they are all on par when it comes to winning and performance.

And the fact is most of us are sheep and follow the fast guy in what is in his car...true fact, EA can run any motor he choses, and everyone at my track will buy it...why, hell he is EA, the fast guy. Not picking Eric, but you could put in a old Reedy M2 17.5 and make it sing....we seen Skeen do it...

The thing is, most of us have the new motors already...will the next gen motors really be that much better?...I dont think so
Keep in mind, ROAR only recently made the announcement.... not every race can wait and see when planning for an event. As you know, the behind the scenes prep work starts long before registration opens. And, ROAR has been known to mess up in forming complete, bulletproof rules without gaping loopholes..... and not every handout motor will turn into a paperweight
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
Only thing I can say to oppose this, is the new ROAR rule to help this from happening was just put in place. Why don't we wait and see if the rule helps the "motor of the month" stuff? As for the brushed days, when I came back from a race, my brushed motors went in the box and my "good" motor came out. I got to do something to "try" to keep up with Drew, lol.
The brushed handouts I got always ended up being my club race motors. Saved quite a bit of money that way and they were always fast enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecaptain View Post
For me I race at "large" races that dont use a handout motor. I personally only buy 1 motor prior to the first "large" race i attend and its generally fast throughout the whole season... until the new stuff drops next year. So now I have to drop 150 on a motor and then another 40+ on another paperweight, per class. And this could be per "large" race i attend. So now im out 200 bucks a class for a regular motor and a spec motor... racing just got more expensive, unless everyone does this.
the idea is that the need to ever purchase a $150 motor will die. Race promoters really should be working together to have some sort of consistency so racers don't end up with motors they use for 1 event and never again. Of course this would mean club racing would need to adopt the spec motors as well, which is possible if the $150 motors die out. Also, what happens if you damage your $150 motor? That would suck to replace that. I know guys who have had to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
well with ROAR stepping up and putting strick rules for 21.5-13.5 motors like with 25.5...isnt this the true solution. I dont thing its going to be much wiggle room when they are done to really see a huge difference. In yours or EA hands maybe, but for 99% of us no. The currect crop of motors are winning across the board...TSR,Trinity,Motiv,Fantom, ect...do you think one is truly better than the other...yes all the companys are scrabbling to get in before the Sept 1st deadline....but how much better are we really thinking these spec motors are going to get.

Just like with the 25.5's and I have tested plenty of them...some are RPM, some are Torque, and some have a good mix....but they are all on par when it comes to winning and performance.

And the fact is most of us are sheep and follow the fast guy in what is in his car...true fact, EA can run any motor he choses, and everyone at my track will buy it...why, hell he is EA, the fast guy. Not picking Eric, but you could put in a old Reedy M2 17.5 and make it sing....we seen Skeen do it...

The thing is, most of us have the new motors already...will the next gen motors really be that much better?...I dont think so
I'm not 100% convinced that ROAR's ruling will stop companies from developing further and making the new motors irrelevant. Sure we no longer chase the super low IR, but the next thing will be no fade and I don't mean a hashtag, I mean seriously achieving cooler temps and less falloff. Of course that is speculation and I hate to do that, but we do need to think of everything.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:45 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by JayL View Post
Myron:

Spot on!

I don't get why guys think they are losing because of motor. It's not your motor guys!

Our locals were sure it was motor, so we ran a spec motor usgt series, and guess what the same guys were on top, basically the entire finish order was the same. Now we don't talk about it anymore

talk about wasting money:
If I have a motor I use at club races and then I have to buy a handout motor at big races I just spent more than if I had an $$ motor.
yes we did this at the Scale Nats this year, and yes it was a handout in GT, but I saw 2 things happen.

The turn-out for the class was very low, and thats a big deal for a USVTA event...National event at that..... the results was about the same. The normal fast guy won and the order would have been about the same imo
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:53 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Keep in mind, ROAR only recently made the announcement.... not every race can wait and see when planning for an event. As you know, the behind the scenes prep work starts long before registration opens. And, ROAR has been known to mess up in forming complete, bulletproof rules without gaping loopholes..... and not every handout motor will turn into a paperweight
That is true, but as you know that at the Champs last year was some of the best numbers you have had in years, and your biggest classes that pulled more money and racers...

17.5 TC 68
USGT 58
17.5 12th Scale 79

total of 205 entries, almost half of the 412 total entries

how can we ignore the fact that motors played a role in these numbers?, and the hotel(lol)...

and if your handout is a gem, by all means, please talk with Scotty, Mike and ROAR about giving it to the class, of whichever needs the help
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:56 AM   #15
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and Robbie you are probably right, its not a stop sign...its a speed bump with a traffic cop on the corner.

Nothing will stop progress, but we can slow it down enough to continue to enjoy the hobby. If the buck stops on Sept 1st...everyone will be set...and I believe it will
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