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View Poll Results: 1/12th scale Rubber or Foam tires
Rubber Tires 54 47.79%
Foam Tires 59 52.21%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-29-2017, 09:30 PM   #106
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Thank You Celt, V-Squared, Robk and Christian. You postings are helpful and understood.

But my point (and others) is that chassis and tires creates another new class! Yes/No?

If the answer is yes, then what have we solved. Do we want another class to start up, have some success but at the expense of what 1/12 stock foam. Is that what you want?

My first R/C car was Tamiya rc002. Their second car ever released. It was the Martini Porsche 935 turbo. It was 1/12 on rubber tires. It handled like the biggest pile of doo you've ever seen, but it was cool tho. My brother bought Tamiya #1, It was the Porsche 934 Valient car. Same chassis, same tires. We took to a track with rc12e's and they destroyed us. The novelty of it is cool, I agree but it either adds a class or hurts an existing class.

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Old 06-29-2017, 10:45 PM   #107
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Hey what do you know? Great minds think alike. LOL.

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Originally Posted by robk View Post
Interesting that I did exactly that....this is the cheapo Tamiya RM01 with yokomo tires and a Team Bluegroove Greenwood Corvette (70's style) - 21.5 1s

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:10 PM   #108
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Steve I understand that you want to save 12th scale racing. I really like 12th scale foam myself. Heck I have four 12th scale cars ready to go in my basement. But around where I currently race there is no 12th scale racing. We struggle to just get 8 guys to show up for GTR and 21.5 sedan. I don't think a few of us playing with rubber pan car is going to kill any class or change anything at a national level. I can't kill a class that is dead where I'm at and you can't save a class by yourself. I don't care how good your reason or argument is it won't really matter.

The real question you should be asking is how can we generate more interest in road course rc racing in the US? That my friend I do not have an answer to. All I know how to do is keep myself and a few friends happy playing with toy cars. Last I checked 12th scale was doing pretty well at Snowbird. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

This is getting kind of out of hand. We should get back to talking about rubber 12th scale. Oh I should mention that those Tamiya Tamtech GT01 are pretty cool also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallyman View Post
Thank You Celt, V-Squared, Robk and Christian. You postings are helpful and understood.

But my point (and others) is that chassis and tires creates another new class! Yes/No?

If the answer is yes, then what have we solved. Do we want another class to start up, have some success but at the expense of what 1/12 stock foam. Is that what you want?

My first R/C car was Tamiya rc002. Their second car ever released. It was the Martini Porsche 935 turbo. It was 1/12 on rubber tires. It handled like the biggest pile of doo you've ever seen, but it was cool tho. My brother bought Tamiya #1, It was the Porsche 934 Valient car. Same chassis, same tires. We took to a track with rc12e's and they destroyed us. The novelty of it is cool, I agree but it either adds a class or hurts an existing class.

Steve
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:19 AM   #109
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I am not proposing to change anything really. I don't have a carpet track anymore and the closest one is about 4 hours away. Most of the development on our car is done remotely by other drivers now for this same reason which also contributes to the slowing down of our development.

All I am saying is that if there was a move to rubber, I could see it working. I have a couple of World Cup Titles Racing Mini-Z on rubber tires and I can see a lot of parallels between the 2 types of racing. Foam was also faster on the Mini-Zs but we all made a decision, much like with TC's to make a transition to rubber because it had a broader mass appeal and the ease of use was better with rubber. Traction was lower, but not so much that it made the cars all of the sudden uncontrollable.

A few benefits were seen from rubber tires:

1.Much longer tire wear. A Mini-z Style rubber tire should last much longer. Due to the decreased side wall flex, we would most certainly not true them down as low if we wanted to get max grip. There would probably still be a happy point where the tires are prime, but I am willing to bet it would be about a 2-3mm diameter range where the tires would work about as well. I am pretty sure that this style tire would not handle all that much different from the current incarnation of 12th scales.

2.Slower speeds in the faster classes. I bet that mod would have to run 7-10 turn motors. Yeah the 3 pros that can run it would complain, but it would probably have a broader appeal for guys to participate in a faster class. It would not be an imposed motor limit, but rather a traction limit. I think many people think this would be a positive.

3.I think the 12th scales would work a little better on asphalt. (Maybe.) With the current economic environment, indoor racing is having a hard time surviving. 12th scale started outdoors and it can still be successful outdoors, but with increased speeds and many times a lack of properly prepared smooth, clean surfaces, rubber could be more successful.

I'll finish my post by saying, I am not trying to fix 12th scale, or that 12th scale is broken for that matter. I am not saying let's do away with foam. All I am saying is that if someone was to come out some time with a proper rubber tire I'd try it. It may not be a bad thing either. It could or could not grow turnouts, but I think it should be cheaper than running foam tires for the average racer.
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:29 AM   #110
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Brian(CRC) I hear a call for some proper 12scale tires. I would gladly buy a set as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
I am not proposing to change anything really. I don't have a carpet track anymore and the closest one is about 4 hours away. Most of the development on our car is done remotely by other drivers now for this same reason which also contributes to the slowing down of our development.

All I am saying is that if there was a move to rubber, I could see it working. I have a couple of World Cup Titles Racing Mini-Z on rubber tires and I can see a lot of parallels between the 2 types of racing. Foam was also faster on the Mini-Zs but we all made a decision, much like with TC's to make a transition to rubber because it had a broader mass appeal and the ease of use was better with rubber. Traction was lower, but not so much that it made the cars all of the sudden uncontrollable.

A few benefits were seen from rubber tires:

1.Much longer tire wear. A Mini-z Style rubber tire should last much longer. Due to the decreased side wall flex, we would most certainly not true them down as low if we wanted to get max grip. There would probably still be a happy point where the tires are prime, but I am willing to bet it would be about a 2-3mm diameter range where the tires would work about as well. I am pretty sure that this style tire would not handle all that much different from the current incarnation of 12th scales.

2.Slower speeds in the faster classes. I bet that mod would have to run 7-10 turn motors. Yeah the 3 pros that can run it would complain, but it would probably have a broader appeal for guys to participate in a faster class. It would not be an imposed motor limit, but rather a traction limit. I think many people think this would be a positive.

3.I think the 12th scales would work a little better on asphalt. (Maybe.) With the current economic environment, indoor racing is having a hard time surviving. 12th scale started outdoors and it can still be successful outdoors, but with increased speeds and many times a lack of properly prepared smooth, clean surfaces, rubber could be more successful.

I'll finish my post by saying, I am not trying to fix 12th scale, or that 12th scale is broken for that matter. I am not saying let's do away with foam. All I am saying is that if someone was to come out some time with a proper rubber tire I'd try it. It may not be a bad thing either. It could or could not grow turnouts, but I think it should be cheaper than running foam tires for the average racer.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:09 AM   #111
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I have spoke with a few guys that are bigger names at my home track, and some that are big names at other tracks and the consensus is the same ( I will not name names as to not drag them into an unwanted confrontation). The minute 12th scale goes to rubber they will sell of their equipment and not run the class again. On road is already drawing bad numbers at some tracks, and if you really want to kill of a big draw at any major events and home tracks then go ahead and make 12th scale rubber. It will not even the playing field, and this will not bring a class to life. You want the numbers to come back up, quit coming up with a new class every week. There is a big core group of guys that have ran this class for years, and there is no reason to change it. So, now that I have said my piece, let the arguments and name calling begin.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:23 AM   #112
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I am not a 12th scale guy, and it's been a damn interesting read to be honest.. so here's my outsiders perspective-

Old timers in 12th saying get off my lawn..
New timers trying to breathe some life into 12th..

Old timers say there is no problem, but when they retire 12th will die.. there are far more old timers then new blood.. Does RC need yet another class? Honestly, no... the fragmentation is a hot mess already..

I am getting setup to go 10th scale on rubber to re-enter the pan car world after 20 years out.. I see rubber as a far more realistic option for me because we're going to form our own class at the local track, and this will keep the cost of racing down to far more manageable levels.. $60 for a year of tires vs $45 every week or two is a no brainer.. I did the foam thing 20 years ago, loved the cars hated the tires..
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:23 AM   #113
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If touring car, WGT, and F1 taught me anything, it's that rubber and foam classes cannot exist side-by-side because the cars are NOT cross-compatible. Consider that.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:58 PM   #114
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I highly doubt any regular 1/12 class will go to rubber tires. It would take actual effort to change things.

There might be an opportunity for expanding 1/12, like rubber tires outdoors, since there is almost no outdoor 1/12 racing anymore. In places where no one races 1/12 anyway, it can't hurt anything. I actually see WGTR cars run in my neck of the woods occasionally. WGT on foam was non existent.

I just never understand why anyone thinks this could change in 5 minutes, requiring a protest sellout of all your gear. That isn't going to happen.
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Old 06-30-2017, 03:44 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
Interesting that I did exactly that....this is the cheapo Tamiya RM01 with yokomo tires and a Team Bluegroove Greenwood Corvette (70's style) - 21.5 1s
Interesting and better than I was expecting, thanks for posting your results. However what I was suggesting was to take a current, A-main level car (17.5 and/or 13.5 motor) to be a really good full test of a rubber tire possibility. The one thing that I believe that we all can agree on is that we don't need more classes, so for this to ever gain any traction on a nation level it would need to replace 17.5 (and possibly 13.5) foam. Have you ever tried it with anything more than 21.5? Is 21.5 the normal stock 12th motor at your track? And if so how did your car compare for lap times with the local hot shoe?
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Old 06-30-2017, 05:07 PM   #116
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IMO the discussion about rubber vs foam should not be all about outright speed. That's just not the point, and besides....few would dispute that if one is only looking for the quickest possible lap times.....foam tires will always win that comparison.....at least on carpet. But the quality, affordability, and enjoyability of the activity is simply not all about what package provides the absolute lowest lap times. Were that the case, then everybody would be running mod 1/12th on open tires because that is undeniably the package that yields the fastest 1/12th scale car. Problem is that hardly anybody can afford to run 1/12th mod and even among the handful who do run it, even fewer actually have the skills required to fully exploit the car's capabilities. So most guys choose to run something that's more manageable, more affordable, and hopefully more enjoyable. I offer that the same mentality that argued strongly not so long ago that the whole idea of running spec foams was complete blasphemy that would totally ruin 1/12th scale......that is the same mentality that insists now that rubber tires can never work on our beloved 1/2th scale cars. And yet, in spite of the naysayers, the gradual switch to spec foams for 17.5 1/12th has not brought about the demise of the class. If anything, the exact opposite is true. The switch to spec foams has made the activity a little bit simpler, a little cheaper, a little more manageable, and therefore probably a little more enjoyable for most participants.....and especially for the newer or the less experienced 1/2th scaler. Mind you, I don't advocate for 1/12th rubber tires (yet) because none are currently available. But I'm keeping an open mind and allowing for the distinct possibility that someday (hopefully soon) that some company may actually produce rubber tires that will actually work good on a 1/12th scale car. I never thought that rubbers could ever be any good on a WGT, but recently I discovered first hand that indeed they do work great on my CRC WGT. Is it faster on rubbers than on foams? Probably not. But is it better as an overall racing package? IMO, definitely yes. So I am open to the potential that the same might potentially be possible for 1/12th. Do I think that 1/12th scale rubbers will ever be as fast as foams? Well, no. But do I hope that they could potentially make the activity simpler, more cost effective, less daunting for potential newcomers, and therefore more popular and enjoyable for everybody? That is my hope.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:53 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris moore View Post
Interesting and better than I was expecting, thanks for posting your results. However what I was suggesting was to take a current, A-main level car (17.5 and/or 13.5 motor) to be a really good full test of a rubber tire possibility. The one thing that I believe that we all can agree on is that we don't need more classes, so for this to ever gain any traction on a nation level it would need to replace 17.5 (and possibly 13.5) foam. Have you ever tried it with anything more than 21.5? Is 21.5 the normal stock 12th motor at your track? And if so how did your car compare for lap times with the local hot shoe?
First off an a main level car on foams will 100% not be the same car on these tires, nor is that in any way what I was looking for. I have had some experience with what is necessary to change a foam tire car to rubber in F1, and you may as well start over on the build/setup. These rubber tires are obviously heavier, which has a huge influence on the handling. The car in the video was built more for fun and to test out some ideas guys had talked about in the past. A test like you suggest would be more appropriate if solid tires like Cristian mentioned were available, simply because the weight,profile and rim size would be very close to foam and I imagine require less changes to get the car working.

That being said, I did run it with a 2s 25.5, which is very quick. I also did a few runs with 2s 21.5, and that is scorching. The Yokomo GT cars are 2s, so I wanted to try that out with an LCG buggy short pack.
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:42 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
I have spoke with a few guys... The minute 12th scale goes to rubber they will sell of their equipment and not run the class again....
Probably the same type of guys that opposed electric 1/8 scale buggy because they were nitro purist. Now Ebuggy is the biggest class at most races I attend and some can't even fill a Nitro class. The point is, things change with time and I believe time is up for foam tires
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:19 PM   #119
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Over the years in RC on road racing, the most realistic and usually slow classes are the most popular by far. The easier and cheaper for someone to join in the fun, the more chance they will...

The grip those rubber tyres show in both those videos is very good. It would be hard to deny that. I guess the question that hasn't been answered is, how long would those rubber tyres last on carpet and asphalt?

I'm pretty sure those people that originally started 1/12th racing, had no intentions of one run tyres.

Foams have their applications, and certainly can last more than one/ two runs in outdoor racing on asphalt.
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Old 07-01-2017, 06:52 PM   #120
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I just put on a new set of rubber tires on my WGTR 2 weeks ago. The car was fast up front but dropped off after a few laps with the old ones. The drop off started 2 weeks before that. The new tires fixed the problem.The old tires were from Jan. 2016. I missed 4 weekends. All carpet. I would like to try the 12th version. Being retired, the cost savings makes it possible to race weekly.
The tires do last.
( I would still run my foam 12th though)
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