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Old 04-07-2017, 05:46 AM   #91
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Guys, this is (mostly) a US forum... but there's still a few europeans here.

As mentionned by VikingRC above, we are looking at this whole thing in disbelief... in Europe, the slowest class is 13.5T. There are no "slower" classes... they just don't exist. No 17.5's. No 21.5's. No 25.5's. None of this stuff. Slowest is 13.5 blinky.

What is so peculiar about American RC-ness that there's this multitude of categories that are playing in the "slow" segment?

In the past, 27x1 was the slow class (and it was suffering from the same issues you all are complaining about above, motor of the week thing, high-Amp chargers, expensive 1-run brushes, overheating, etc... - but this is not the point). 13.5 blinky is a bit faster than 27x1 from what I can feel, but not THAT much faster - feels more like 19turn to me (13.5T boosted feels like a good freshly cut 12x2 or 11x2 on top-notch batteries - I think it's the sweet spot btw!).

Why is it that everyone in the US wants to run SLOWER than the SLOWEST classes from the noughties? There was almost no silver-can races 15yrs ago, outside of the tamiya cup and some junior club-racing local efforts... what are we missing here in Europe? Why the dog-slow classes, what's their unstoppable appeal?!?
I'm guessing it's track size . our avg track (indoors) size is 36x72(12m x 24m) with large tracks being (48x100) and our current rails (tho I'm trying to change that) don't do us any favors with taps.... That's why I feel we don't want to go faster .
Also since you guys run 13.5 you havnt noticed as major of a change in performance in motors as the 17.5/21.5 . hell theirs 2or3 17.5 motors that blend in with a 13.5
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Old 04-07-2017, 05:47 AM   #92
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Everyone wants a trophy. That's what.

We have USVTA and USGT, but most of their appeal is the look, not the speed. But that's where people are pushed to start because of the slower speed. They are not beginner classes. To be competitive, they actually require really good set-up knowledge and precise and consistent driving lines.

What I do think is rediculous is the addition of 21.5 and 25.5 TC. WHY??? These motor classes already existed. Just because you wanted to run TC tires and bodies because you couldn't keep up with the big boys in 17.5?


Running anything slower than a 17.5 motor in a TC is equivalent to putting a lawnmower engine in formula one car so it's "fair"

The only reason 21.5 TC would be acceptable to run, is if 17.5 went away. You run 21.5 as entry level (the old 27t brushed stock class) and 13.5 blinky and maybe Mod. Here in the US, doing this would all but eliminate the motor war.

How? 21.5 would still have these super fast hard to get motors, but since its beginners/amateurs running them that tag the wall or can't keep precise lines, the power differences wouldn't be as noticeable. When a driver gets good and starts dominating, they step into 13.5 blinky. In the US, most tracks aren't big enough to use 13.5's to their full potential, so having the absolute "best 1%" motor wouldn't be an issue. Mod only makes sense on the largest carpet tracks and outdoor.

But the sanctioning bodies and manufacturers will never allow this as their revenue streams would all but dry up. And drivers wouldn't allow it because it wouldn't allow them to enter 3 TC classes in a single event to get 3 trophys for the day.

End rant.

Start the poo throwing my direction.
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Old 04-07-2017, 07:48 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
Guys, this is (mostly) a US forum... but there's still a few europeans here.

As mentionned by VikingRC above, we are looking at this whole thing in disbelief... in Europe, the slowest class is 13.5T. There are no "slower" classes... they just don't exist. No 17.5's. No 21.5's. No 25.5's. None of this stuff. Slowest is 13.5 blinky.

What is so peculiar about American RC-ness that there's this multitude of categories that are playing in the "slow" segment?

In the past, 27x1 was the slow class (and it was suffering from the same issues you all are complaining about above, motor of the week thing, high-Amp chargers, expensive 1-run brushes, overheating, etc... - but this is not the point). 13.5 blinky is a bit faster than 27x1 from what I can feel, but not THAT much faster - feels more like 19turn to me (13.5T boosted feels like a good freshly cut 12x2 or 11x2 on top-notch batteries - I think it's the sweet spot btw!).

Why is it that everyone in the US wants to run SLOWER than the SLOWEST classes from the noughties? There was almost no silver-can races 15yrs ago, outside of the tamiya cup and some junior club-racing local efforts... what are we missing here in Europe? Why the dog-slow classes, what's their unstoppable appeal?!?
21.5 is actually faster than the old 27 turn brushed stock motors.
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Old 04-07-2017, 08:34 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
Guys, this is (mostly) a US forum... but there's still a few europeans here.

As mentionned by VikingRC above, we are looking at this whole thing in disbelief... in Europe, the slowest class is 13.5T. There are no "slower" classes... they just don't exist. No 17.5's. No 21.5's. No 25.5's. None of this stuff. Slowest is 13.5 blinky.

What is so peculiar about American RC-ness that there's this multitude of categories that are playing in the "slow" segment?

In the past, 27x1 was the slow class (and it was suffering from the same issues you all are complaining about above, motor of the week thing, high-Amp chargers, expensive 1-run brushes, overheating, etc... - but this is not the point). 13.5 blinky is a bit faster than 27x1 from what I can feel, but not THAT much faster - feels more like 19turn to me (13.5T boosted feels like a good freshly cut 12x2 or 11x2 on top-notch batteries - I think it's the sweet spot btw!).

Why is it that everyone in the US wants to run SLOWER than the SLOWEST classes from the noughties? There was almost no silver-can races 15yrs ago, outside of the tamiya cup and some junior club-racing local efforts... what are we missing here in Europe? Why the dog-slow classes, what's their unstoppable appeal?!?
It's not the top speed. It is the torque of the low wind brushless motors and the inability to control it.
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:30 PM   #95
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Reading through this thread, and thinking back on the days when I used to race 27t TC made me come to the conclusion that everyone has unrealistic expectations.

I was never one of the fast guys. I was still running NiCads when everyone went to NiMH. I has 2000-2400mah batteries when everyone was moving to 3000mah+ batteries. I was running the P2K when people moved to the P2K2. The difference was, I never expected to run in the A-main.

The A-main was the same 6 guys, that finished in almost the same 6 spots. It was like Formula 1, where typically, the position you made it through the first turn was the position you finished. That wasn't fun to me. I never wanted to be one of those guys. Even if I wanted to, my budget didn't allow, and that was fine by me.

Those guys would get seriously angry if anything went wrong. Get bumped, get spun, get flipped, marshal didn't get to them fast enough, and they were screaming. Come back to the pits and slam their car on the table. That wasn't fun.

If the motor you chose isn't the fastest, who cares? If your batteries dump by the end of the race, it happens. If you can't afford a new set of tires and your car is sliding all over the place, accept your lap times and say "not bad for garbage tires".

We all can't compete on the national level, and no amount of rules will change that. We are fortunate enough to have companies like Hobbywing and Turnigy that can at least get us out racing at an affordable level.

If more of us accept the fact that we all can't be A-main, top notch, professional, deep pocket racers, the racing will get closer. If you get 5-6 new comers running TrackStar motors, last years ESC and budget batteries, there will be the close B-Main racing that everyone says they want. That's also 5-6 new guys keeping the club racing alive and fun because the motor wars won't bother them.

Watch a few seasons of Street Outlaws one time. You had the guys that couldn't afford back half their cars and run big tires getting run off of the list by guys who were running tube frame pro-mod cars making 4000hp. It's part of the game.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:14 PM   #96
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How? 21.5 would still have these super fast hard to get motors, but since its beginners/amateurs running them that tag the wall or can't keep precise lines, the power differences wouldn't be as noticeable. When a driver gets good and starts dominating, they step into 13.5 blinky.
Keep thinking this.

Those same beginners/amateurs are still going to buy the "motor of the week" and still spend $$$ on the best one. I see it all the time. New guys shows up and all they are worried about is what motor is in So and So's car. They couldn't care less about set up or basic driving skills. They have it in their mind that its motor that is keeping them from winning.

For guys moving up..... what makes you think they will move to 13.5? Heck most haven't moved out of 17.5 and some are even dropping back to USGT and VTA at big races.


The single biggest problem in on road is too many classes PERIOD.

But the problem is there are just enough guys in each to keep them going. Race directors aren't going to turn away entries if the racers keep signing up for all these classes


The next set of problems come with cars have gotten too fast for most of the tracks in the US. Tracks of the same size 10 yrs ago were great with round cells and 27t brushed motors.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:39 PM   #97
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We have USVTA and USGT, but most of their appeal is the look, not the speed. But that's where people are pushed to start because of the slower speed. They are not beginner classes. To be competitive, they actually require really good set-up knowledge and precise and consistent driving lines.

What I do think is rediculous is the addition of 21.5 and 25.5 TC. WHY??? These motor classes already existed. Just because you wanted to run TC tires and bodies because you couldn't keep up with the big boys in 17.5?
I'm glad somebody else sees how strange it is to run race rubber on a sedan with a 25.5 motor. I have no problem with VTA, I think VTA is great.

After watching the 25.5 TC class run at Snowbirds via LiveRC, I find it painful to even watch. If you can find video of those races, take a close look. They had so much grip and so little motor they would hit the every inside flapper or disc on the apex of every corner. Maybe going big on front springs like 2.9 or 20 lb front springs would have helped those guys, but it's still too much grip with too little motor.

The main reason I switched from 17.5 TC to USGT was the feel of the Ride spec tires on the new black carpet. I like how the harder tire allows me to full power drift through a big sweeper when the track is cold in the morning. It reminds me of how we used to huck the car into a turn back in the 13.5 foam sedan class. Balancing a car with the throttle is one of the best feeling in RC. Don't take that out of any class.

The other reason I switched to USGT was the bodies. I'm just done with Mazda Speed 6 bodies, all 13 versions of it. As a kid I had Lamborghini Diabolo, Ferrari 308 GTB, 69 Chevelle, and 70' Cameros on my walls. Never anything like a Mazda 6.

I also think that if we spent half the time learning how to smooth out our esc settings that we do finding the most aggressive motor timings, then we could drive mild mod motors in the US. I would guess that is how the Europeans do it.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:52 PM   #98
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Running anything slower than a 17.5 motor in a TC is equivalent to putting a lawnmower engine in formula one car so it's "fair"
You should win the INTERNET for the Day for that comment.
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Old 04-07-2017, 02:06 PM   #99
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The classic on-road formula. On-road was all pan cars, all foam tires, 1/10, or 1/12 scale. Mod or stock. You could run the same car in two classes with just a motor change.

At the local track, we have USGT, VTA, F1, and 1/12. None of those are mod classes, so there is a motor race... And due to weight rules, you can't use the same car for two classes.

I think what we need to "fix" racing, is low traction, spec tires. It would make motors less relevant. But it would make driver skill much more important.....
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Old 04-07-2017, 08:41 PM   #100
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I keep hearing motor of the week tossed around. Just wanted to point out that the newer style team scream motors were the new must have thing guys complained about back in September getting ready for Vegas. Its now april and they are still winning as recent as a couple weeks or so ago at roar and Canadian nats. Its much easier to justify the price when its actually motor of the year and not motor of the week.
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Old 04-07-2017, 08:46 PM   #101
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Easier again if the average racer can get a hold of them without shelling out the $ to join the end of a back order queue that seems to be never ending. I still feel that with the supply issues as they have been for as long as they have been, their roar approval needs to be reviewed and possibly rescinded.
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Old 04-07-2017, 09:04 PM   #102
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Or just as EA told you on the tsr thread you could order one rather than complain about it.. do you even use roar rules in Australia ?
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Old 04-08-2017, 12:30 AM   #103
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Or just as EA told you on the tsr thread you could order one rather than complain about it.. do you even use roar rules in Australia ?
The motors in Australia must be either IFMAR, ROAR, EFRA or BRCA approved. ROAR motor approval does affect us. Almost nobody over here uses TSR because postage for individual motors is insane, and due to the backorders we can't order a large shipment to amortise the shipping costs.
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Old 04-08-2017, 06:02 AM   #104
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Easier again if the average racer can get a hold of them without shelling out the $ to join the end of a back order queue that seems to be never ending. I still feel that with the supply issues as they have been for as long as they have been, their roar approval needs to be reviewed and possibly rescinded.
You should have ordered one 6 months ago. Don't get me wrong, I understand the shipping element, but roar availability revocation now will not happen. It would impact way too many racers that have the motors. They are worth the wait.

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Old 04-08-2017, 06:46 AM   #105
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I used to think the same way about the availability rule, and how it should be applied.

But then I thought about it... The motors are available, however manufacturs can not keep up with demand. They should not be punished because they make a support product that fits within the current rules (I am for setting IR limits to keep better parity from one generation design to the next)

If having a TSR, Motiv Mc2, or Fantom is what is keeping you from the podium, then you would have been one of the early adopters of these motors months ago.

But to answer the original post

21.5 racing is fair, as is every other class as long as the rules are followed by all drivers. The only time it is not fair, is when a drivers break rules. A driver having a better motor than you is not cheating, and is completely "fair".
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