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Old 04-04-2017, 09:14 AM   #46
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2007 USVTA
TC3
27t stock motor
Novak esc
old 4 cells

2017
TC7.1
Reedy M3 25.5
Reedy 510R
Reedy LP 6000

10 years running VTA....

why am I not running my TC3?...I still have it. Simple, PARTS!...so I run my latest greatest and Im wrong?...well look at it this way, alot of you have not been running this long, do I tell you to go get a wore out used 15 year old car?...no. Why?...cause it makes no sense....do you need a newer chassis?...no. Do you want one?...yes, just for the parts alone, including the setup help. I also dont run my older cars, cause when I got into VTA it was my only onroad car. so when the TC5 came out, I got it. So now I have 2 different cars with different parts....more stuff to lug around. Now I retire my TC3 and get another TC5 and now its easier....and Ive done that everytime a new AE car is released.

Also Ive traveled to 6 races more than 300 miles from home knowing I was underpowered. And I still went. Why?....cause I love racing more than winning. Even when other racers offered up that "new" motor for me to use, I stuck with my loyalty and focused on my driving and setup. Did I win?...nope....did I give 110% with what I had, heck yeah. When you make the A-main with a motor thats 3000 rpm slower than everyones else....you feel good.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:25 AM   #47
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Sponsored drivers are not fast because they're sponsored. They're sponsored because they're fast, and are expected to represent their sport and brand in a positive manner. Instead of complaining they're beating you, use them as a resource to make yourself faster. It's also good to have someone fast to set the bar. This season I came back from a 10 year hiatus. Having fast competition in my class (USGT) made me better. They were a valuable resource for me all season.

25.5 has tighter motor rules, and that shows in the parity on the track.

21.5 is just as open as 17.5, only a few tenths slower.

If you want more "spec" racing, run 25.5.

If you want sort of open racing, but a little slower than 17.5, then run 21.5.

If you want to go stupid fast, run 13.5 or mod.

At the end of the day you can only run what classes the track offers anyways. As long as it's not a pro driver running sportsman/novice class, I don't see a problem.

Remember— the more evenly matched motors are, the more important everything else becomes. There will always be something that gives an advantage. That's the point of racing— you look for everything you can to beat the competition.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:25 AM   #48
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last one, promise

also what about the guy thats sponsored, and been sponsored for decades. What do you do about him?...he is up in age and his reflexes are not what the used to be. On top of that he is retired, and without his "discount" he cant afford to race. Now what? ask him to drop his sponsor for 30 years? and tell him keep the sponsor and run Mod?
or just quit all together cause there is no answer.

Ill wait?
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:50 AM   #49
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Is 21.5 racing fair?

It is as fast as mod before brushless. Not fair to new racers. Even 25.5 to the newest guy dropping a car down on the track for the first time is way too fast. And what do we do? Laugh at the guy, roll our eyes, forget that was us once and behave like a bunch of hypocrites.

It is as fast as mod before brushless. It is still hard work to make a 6 minute pass unmarshalled for the above average racer. Not fair to the mod racers who locally can't get the class up and running as no one wants to put in the work. This is a hobby, supposed to be relaxing. If mod is that hard to "play" at, then you will not draw racers. So the mod racer drops to 21.5 just to be able put in laps and get some racing in.

It is as fast as mod before brushless. But, with time and patience is an acceptable speed for racing. Everyone in the hobby needs to take a few laps in the other racers perspective. Make it fun again: Teach, Learn, Communicate and above all have fun. right now, 21.5 seems to be the landing pad for all skill levels, wallets and sponsorships.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:58 AM   #50
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I never thought "dam sponsored racers" while I was competing in a spec class. It's so easy to blame faults instead of working hard on your equipment to get the best you can out of the whole package. Rc spirit is a lot of it, tuning capabilities in all aspects, Driving like a calm beast animal and of course enjoy your dam self while racing for crying out loud

Motors do play a role.. It alone won't win the race. Some people never touch timing or gearing and expect to be fast with every layout. Some folks don't want to tune anything on race days where others will try multiple changes to find the speed or result they are looking for even if it's a track they may never race on again.

Trick parts will not shine until you can hit fire laps one after another and max out the set up before moving on. If something doesn't work out on the first day a lot folks are eager to throw it back in the pit back or up for sale instantly. Carrying corner speed is so important in spec racing but majorly over looked at the same time because of the straight's and all this new Electronic technology we currently have to us.

If I am racing someone who is charging at 40amps, is a sponsored driver, and has top notch equipment.. I aspire to keep being in the same mains or better with less inferior equipment wise and that can be a boost in it's own way. Beating sponsored drivers feels good At the same time being sponsored, racers also have an upkeep / commitment to their manufactures and if you are sour about that then ball out

Each main has it's own race, always has. Seems like a lot of people complaining "use to be on top" of their game and just are not anymore. Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy Racing and keep working at it

There is just a lot of skill in the hobby these days, no matter where that is just a fact.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:59 AM   #51
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Somehow I think we got off track. I'll run against sponsored drivers. I do every week. And sometimes I win. I'm not envious of what they get. More power to them and a big thank you for the help I get from them.
Darkside is right about the struggles of making old Chassis's work. It's cheaper to pick up a barely used new chassis than it is to make/keep old stuff competitive.

The original post was about the parity of 21.5 motors. I am a huge proponent of the IR rule for 25.5 after seeing my old Novak and My new motiv back to back. They really are a horse a piece. For this weekend, My Motiv is in my car now, but my Boss is in my pit bag. Now, for 21.5, if you look at the results from the last big races (IIC, Snowbirds, Roar Nats) and look at the numbers running TSR's, you know why it's the motor of the week.
But we can't sustain the motor of the week mentality. There needs to be an IR rule for different winds. Performance has crept up over the years as is natural. Rumor has roar changing stock from 17.5 to 25.5. Cool!

My only fear is what this does to VTA and USGT. I race for the race. Once the cars are moving, mines the yellow and red one. I couldn't care less what body is on it. A locked timing spec motor for usgt might save it. But we can't have 3 classes moving about the same speed.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:38 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Is 21.5 racing fair?

It is as fast as mod before brushless. Not fair to new racers. Even 25.5 to the newest guy dropping a car down on the track for the first time is way too fast. And what do we do? Laugh at the guy, roll our eyes, forget that was us once and behave like a bunch of hypocrites.
.
You are right on the money with this, but the answer for new drivers is right in front of us. The current WGT-R class using a 17.5 1S combo is very easy to drive and even a new driver can get a smooth drive out of the corners. The setup on most pan cars is easy and you can basically set it and forget it. Just glue sidewalls, sauce and drive for a full season. Kits are also in the right price range for new guys at roughly half the price of a sedan.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:48 AM   #53
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I'm fine with an IR rule for 21.5. Lock it down to what the latest motors are at. Manufactures will still find an advantage outside of IR, be-it weight or whatever— they're racers, that's what racers do. But you'll be spending a lot of money for a smaller advantage. I don't know if that's better or not... but it will even up the field slightly.

We'll always be looking for more speed. If I can't buy a faster motor, I'll buy a lower IR esc or battery. All the while I'm working on setup and driving. I'll spend what I can afford to go fast. That part won't ever change. I typically spend less than most people, but even I have the TSR motor in my USGT car.
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Old 04-04-2017, 02:45 PM   #54
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Coming from a place where 13.5T is the slowest onroad class around, i find this discussion funny.. =D
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Old 04-04-2017, 04:01 PM   #55
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You guys kill me with the setup thing. A lot of us do put in a ton of time with setup. But my TB03 with the best setup in the world will not outrun a awesomatix or X-ray with a great setup. I don't really care though as I will always outrun someone with a newer car.

For sponsored racers it really depends. If I were sponsored I would run a 419 and not a TB03 but I have bills, a wife and kid so TB03 it is. I race with Mayron and he seems like a really nice guy. I don't care much that he is sponsored because I would never buy reedy products. They are not any nicer than my setup so really doesn't bother me. It's nice to race with fast people so not really any complaints there. I feel bad he has to race reedy stuff so to each their own.

Getting some better rule sets would go further. Motor especially. The difference in motors right now is stupid ridiculous


Edit. I would like to be sponsored by a company with race bodies at 30 bucks a pop that would save me some serious $$$. Body companies bend us all over.

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Old 04-04-2017, 04:39 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
last one, promise

also what about the guy thats sponsored, and been sponsored for decades. What do you do about him?...he is up in age and his reflexes are not what the used to be. On top of that he is retired, and without his "discount" he cant afford to race. Now what? ask him to drop his sponsor for 30 years? and tell him keep the sponsor and run Mod?
or just quit all together cause there is no answer.

Ill wait?
At that point you ran what you can afford like everyone else. Goes against the argument of you don't have to have the latest and greatest. I'm 400 in my entire setup bro.
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Old 04-04-2017, 06:30 PM   #57
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I find a certain degree in irony that the person who took the most exception with my post has what, at least 4 brands shamelessly plugged in their signature?

Not really an impartial opinion.

4 Sponsors, wants to run in the slowest class. Could you have presented me with a better example of what I am saying is wrong with the hobby if you tried? Of course you'll defend your cushy little position, it's in your best interest to do so.

For the record, I am not nor have I ever been or ever hope to be sponsored or supported by any brand.

Now, as for a set IR limit, good idea, set it to 30 milliohms per phase using a MM2 or similar meter. Based on that I have only encounted two 21.5 motors under that. A TSR 21.5 and a Trackstar V2 21.5 both were in the 28-29 milliohm area.
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:20 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffC View Post
I'm fine with an IR rule for 21.5. Lock it down to what the latest motors are at. Manufactures will still find an advantage outside of IR, be-it weight or whatever— they're racers, that's what racers do. But you'll be spending a lot of money for a smaller advantage. I don't know if that's better or not... but it will even up the field slightly.

We'll always be looking for more speed. If I can't buy a faster motor, I'll buy a lower IR esc or battery. All the while I'm working on setup and driving. I'll spend what I can afford to go fast. That part won't ever change. I typically spend less than most people, but even I have the TSR motor in my USGT car.
its racing spend money to go fast
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:30 AM   #59
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Geez, Myron, don't take it personal, remember we're talking about racing toy cars for bowling trophies.

I get all of your points, and I agree with most of them, but that isn't the problem. Yes, you have justified going to big races even with possibly less motor, but there are a lot of racers who have given up on the hobby because they can't chase the technology any more. The idea of different classes was to separate racers based on skill level. We've forgotten that, and the hobby has paid a price for it. USGT 21.5 was a class a little faster than VTA, but without the craziness of 17.5 TC. Now that 17.5 is considered too fast, many of those racers are stepping down to 21.5, and they're bringing the craziness with them. And more than a few people are grumbling about it.

And I never said anything about sponsorship.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:30 AM   #60
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I did not read the comments but my opinion is that what is unfair about 21.5 (or any spec motor/ESC class) is the complete lack of tech inspection at the club level (and sometimes higher levels). The very basic things like battery voltage and whether the ESC is in blinky mode need to be checked. And perhaps spot checks for actual motor and ESC compliance should be conducted from time to time.
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