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Old 04-10-2017, 05:18 AM   #136
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The slower the class, the more important the motor becomes. Why else would everyone be worried about gearing and fans?

There's also an assumption that someone complaining about motors either doesn't know about setup or know how to drive. This isn't true. Knowing how to drive is a matter of putting in the laps. And setup is something we're all working on each time we race. But a hotter motor can trump all that.

Now we can all make lists about what's more important than what. That would be another ten thousand post thread. What most people don't understand is all those things are very close to one another. There may be a situation where a better motor didn't help this week. Or you clipped one board too many.

I race on a very tight budget. So I'm forced to try to overcome what I lack in equipment with skill and setup. I'm usually slower than most, but once in a while I get a better result because the guys in front of me screw up. That's what keeps me coming back.

There is an issue with spec motors. That's undeniable. How to fix that is something that needs to be discussed, and is on other threads.

How fair racing is depends solely on the individual track.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:53 AM   #137
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I took the time to write the BOD of ROAR and I encourage you to do the same to get the rules changed as you see fit. I wrote that I am in favor of a single turn motor to be labeled as the default Stock motor class with few additional rules added. I don't care if they make it 17.5, 21.5 or 25.5. Just make stock 1 motor. Then you can have the same motor to run any class you want. USGT, F1, TC, Offroad, whatever. One spec. Everything else can be mod. It will make racing more even. I have witnessed this in the 25.5 TC class firsthand where IR limits are imposed.
Additional rules: Set IR number minimum, and set inner diameter of the stator. 2 current options not enforced on the current motors outside of IR on 25.5. This will not only make things standardized, it will also reduce the cost of motors because the advantages will be so much smaller. but it is racing and someone will figure out the next niche. Until then, I think it would be a better thing for all RC racing. Of course this all is an option. So write yours to ROAR and be a part of making the change.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:40 AM   #138
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The spec classes imo should be locked timing

Like the 3650 hobbywing motors

If a track can get an agreement between the racers that run the class
Tgem the track or local shop can easily order motors from let's say trinity or hobbywing in bulk and sell at a very low price and still make profit for time spent

We may be trying this at my track as a test
A lot of the guys were receptive to the idea

As far as top notch guys running 17.5 ot usgt...
Me personally I have no problem with it ..
I enjoy seeing where I stack up against some of the best in the country
I'm lucky to have top notch 17.5 guys running at my track as well as current champs or champ caliber guys on a reg basis

As for mod. Let's say mod tc. It's an amazing class but needs to be run more often to stay sharp. Very hard to not run it and try to go in cold

But when your running it on a reg basis it def helps 17.5 be driven harder. Again this is my opinion
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:04 AM   #139
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can we just run the classes that we like, and that we want to run?...instead of constantly trying to "suggest" what this person should race. The rules are written and everyone knows them. So I still dont understand the problem. Rules are for everyone. The same rules. Not special rules for young old sponsored tan or pale...or even cheap or exspensive. We all have the same rules. If you want to run mod?...thats your choice, but be aware of the rules before you get in....If you want to run USGT, be aware of the rules before you get in....if 13.5 is your fancy, please understand and follow the rules.

This isnt rockets or model trains....its racing, and in racing the goal is to race. If you choose this as a hobby and with all the different classes out there, and cant find something you like, then its not for you. You have scale and fast, you have slow and scale, you have fun and serious. Pick one....and race. Quit complaining all the time cause of this or that. When and if the rules for motors ever change, all you will do is pick something else to find thats "NOT" fair, like a $800 chassis in VTA, or "Pro" drivers running 17.5 TC at Snowbirds, or Hobbyshop owners cherry picking motors and giving you the lesser of the batch.

I understand more and more why the Onroad side of the hobby is so hard to grow. Its to many people on here complaining and whinning about nothing, and as we all know, those are the ones that get all the attention...sqeeky wheel. Make Onroad racing grow?..help each other and help the new guys. Be a friend and race buddy and have some understanding of what is important, and whats Bullshit. Cause this whole debate, is reall just about $$$$$....who can afford a $150+ motor and who cant....figure this out and move on to who can afford a $100 pitlight and who cant....its the same dang problem with the same solution.

Some cant, some will and some wont>>>PERIOD....it is a choice...pick yours
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:27 AM   #140
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You guys are killing me with this stuff....

I'm still not connecting the dots on why some of you think you're on such a tight budget that a $95 version of the latest TSR is too expensive. So take 21.5 for example - if you already have a Reedy M3, previous Trinity versions, an MC1 or similar, those motors cost you $90. So, please explain to me how a $95 TSR is something killing these lower classes? For the love of all things holy, a trip through McDonalds drive-thru cost you more than the $5 difference. How many times do I have to post this? I just finished 3rd in the ROAR Region 4 race held this past weekend in the optional 21.5 class.....with a $95 TSR. Set-up was off a touch and the driver was off a touch. So, it was me that was off, not the motor which cost me $5 more than my previous Reedy. So, stop already.....

For those of you that think mod is so much cheaper, especially someone trying to convince me that they've used the same ONE motor for two or 3 seasons, you must race on the exact same track every time out or at least tracks that are extremely similar size, shape, and configuration. so, if this is your scenario, please understand your scenario is for you and doesn't apply to all.

I watched a former ROAR National champ pitting right next to go through several motors this weekend alone. Then he had to try several different winds as well. I watched thermal shut-downs and numerous cars break. These were some of the best guys in Florida, these were not your average racers for the most part. We all know that cars break in mod - period. Lots of cars that start race certainly don't finish the race.

This weekend we had extremely high traction, hot outdoor temps (which only get worse June - Aug), and a very large track. So, if you believe that you're gonna pull out you're 2 seasons old mod motor and run against some of the newer stuff....ah, good luck here in Florida. When you find out you're a touch underpowered, guess what you're gonna have to pull out another wind....oh, wait, that's right you don't have one. So, please stop trying to sell that fact that mod doesn't break cars WAY more often than anything else and that many racers simply just don't finish their heats or that top level, well traveled and experienced mod racers don't have numerous winds in their pit boxes in order to be prepared depending on where they're racing on that given day. This argument doesn't hold water against the motor cost of 17.5 or 21.5 motor cost. Once you buy a $95 TSR there is nothing else to buy. If you can't get it done with that, you're out of excuses. You're out of reasons to cry for a spec motor. Fact is, you were probably never in the hunt before the expensive $95 motor and you probably won't be after you buy it.

Racing isn't cheap. Racing isn't for everyone. If it's too expensive, then you probably shouldn't be doing it anyhow. Enjoy it at the hobby level. Oh, and if you think 25.5 is answer because the IR is in place, then go give it a shot but first, if you've got an old version of a 25.5 including a Novak, it probably isn't legal. In addition, the Motiv and TSR seemed to be the preferred, so get ready to possibly buy another motor if you don't have one of these too in this class. BTW, I did win the Regionals in VTA using a TSR 25.5. So, I'm speaking from experience.

Can you get back to threads that don't sweat $5 motor for the newest motor or threads that don't try to convince me that mod racing is so much cheaper.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:39 AM   #141
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I miss the days when "stock" was a 27 turn motor with fixed timing on a 6 cell nicad battery while modified was literally anything else. We do have too many classes today with too little consistency. Choose a motor turn, specify a fixed amount of timing on motor and esc, then specify the number of battery cells with no limit on mah. That's it. Done. Anything else goes in the modified or open class. Don't overthink it. Remember, at the end of the day, it's never fair to the loser.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:48 AM   #142
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You guys are killing me with this stuff....

I'm still not connecting the dots on why some of you think you're on such a tight budget that a $95 version of the latest TSR is too expensive. So take 21.5 for example - if you already have a Reedy M3, previous Trinity versions, an MC1 or similar, those motors cost you $90. So, please explain to me how a $95 TSR is something killing these lower classes? For the love of all things holy, a trip through McDonalds drive-thru cost you more than the $5 difference. How many times do I have to post this? I just finished 3rd in the ROAR Region 4 race held this past weekend in the optional 21.5 class.....with a $95 TSR. Set-up was off a touch and the driver was off a touch. So, it was me that was off, not the motor which cost me $5 more than my previous Reedy. So, stop already.....

For those of you that think mod is so much cheaper, especially someone trying to convince me that they've used the same ONE motor for two or 3 seasons, you must race on the exact same track every time out or at least tracks that are extremely similar size, shape, and configuration. so, if this is your scenario, please understand your scenario is for you and doesn't apply to all.

I watched a former ROAR National champ pitting right next to go through several motors this weekend alone. Then he had to try several different winds as well. I watched thermal shut-downs and numerous cars break. These were some of the best guys in Florida, these were not your average racers for the most part. We all know that cars break in mod - period. Lots of cars that start race certainly don't finish the race.

This weekend we had extremely high traction, hot outdoor temps (which only get worse June - Aug), and a very large track. So, if you believe that you're gonna pull out you're 2 seasons old mod motor and run against some of the newer stuff....ah, good luck here in Florida. When you find out you're a touch underpowered, guess what you're gonna have to pull out another wind....oh, wait, that's right you don't have one. So, please stop trying to sell that fact that mod doesn't break cars WAY more often than anything else and that many racers simply just don't finish their heats or that top level, well traveled and experienced mod racers don't have numerous winds in their pit boxes in order to be prepared depending on where they're racing on that given day. This argument doesn't hold water against the motor cost of 17.5 or 21.5 motor cost. Once you buy a $95 TSR there is nothing else to buy. If you can't get it done with that, you're out of excuses. You're out of reasons to cry for a spec motor. Fact is, you were probably never in the hunt before the expensive $95 motor and you probably won't be after you buy it.

Racing isn't cheap. Racing isn't for everyone. If it's too expensive, then you probably shouldn't be doing it anyhow. Enjoy it at the hobby level. Oh, and if you think 25.5 is answer because the IR is in place, then go give it a shot but first, if you've got an old version of a 25.5 including a Novak, it probably isn't legal. In addition, the Motiv and TSR seemed to be the preferred, so get ready to possibly buy another motor if you don't have one of these too in this class. BTW, I did win the Regionals in VTA using a TSR 25.5. So, I'm speaking from experience.

Can you get back to threads that don't sweat $5 motor for the newest motor or threads that don't try to convince me that mod racing is so much cheaper.

Precisely why we should give everyone trophies and a safe room to decompress when they come in less than first place. 😀
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:54 AM   #143
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I miss the days when "stock" was a 27 turn motor with fixed timing on a 6 cell nicad battery while modified was literally anything else. We do have too many classes today with too little consistency. Choose a motor turn, specify a fixed amount of timing on motor and esc, then specify the number of battery cells with no limit on mah. That's it. Done. Anything else goes in the modified or open class. Don't overthink it. Remember, at the end of the day, it's never fair to the loser.
You must have missed the part back in those days of having several different types and styles of brushes to try to squeeze every bit of power out of that 27 turn motor
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:57 AM   #144
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All you guys wanting a spec or handout motor for 21.5 have you attended a roar national race lately? It's already a high price to enter 1 class. What happens when you gotta pay 40-50 more to run 21.5 to get a motor?
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:00 AM   #145
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You must have missed the part back in those days of having several different types and styles of brushes to try to squeeze every bit of power out of that 27 turn motor
agreed...Don't want to go back those days ...it is worst than today...I remenber I spend so much time tuning the motor and getting sponsor battery and on and on...
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:04 AM   #146
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can we just run the classes that we like, and that we want to run?...instead of constantly trying to "suggest" what this person should race. The rules are written and everyone knows them. So I still dont understand the problem. Rules are for everyone. The same rules. Not special rules for young old sponsored tan or pale...or even cheap or exspensive. We all have the same rules. If you want to run mod?...thats your choice, but be aware of the rules before you get in....If you want to run USGT, be aware of the rules before you get in....if 13.5 is your fancy, please understand and follow the rules.

This isnt rockets or model trains....its racing, and in racing the goal is to race. If you choose this as a hobby and with all the different classes out there, and cant find something you like, then its not for you. You have scale and fast, you have slow and scale, you have fun and serious. Pick one....and race. Quit complaining all the time cause of this or that. When and if the rules for motors ever change, all you will do is pick something else to find thats "NOT" fair, like a $800 chassis in VTA, or "Pro" drivers running 17.5 TC at Snowbirds, or Hobbyshop owners cherry picking motors and giving you the lesser of the batch.

I understand more and more why the Onroad side of the hobby is so hard to grow. Its to many people on here complaining and whinning about nothing, and as we all know, those are the ones that get all the attention...sqeeky wheel. Make Onroad racing grow?..help each other and help the new guys. Be a friend and race buddy and have some understanding of what is important, and whats Bullshit. Cause this whole debate, is reall just about $$$$$....who can afford a $150+ motor and who cant....figure this out and move on to who can afford a $100 pitlight and who cant....its the same dang problem with the same solution.

Some cant, some will and some wont>>>PERIOD....it is a choice...pick yours
You missed it, Sunday their was a guy racing a TC body, 21.5 and Jaco's. It was allowed.....it is just club racing though
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:06 AM   #147
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agreed...Don't want to go back those days ...it is worst than today...I remenber I spend so much time tuning the motor and getting sponsor battery and on and on...
And today we are running them on motor analyzers, playing with timing, changing the gearing, and buying over voltage batteries.

Man it is the same, don't try to act like it isn't.

Only difference was the 27 turn motors were only $50 and brushes were $7 to $10 a set.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:13 AM   #148
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You must have missed the part back in those days of having several different types and styles of brushes to try to squeeze every bit of power out of that 27 turn motor
Nope. Didn't miss it at all. I was there. You are nitpicking and ENTIRELY missed the point. The brilliance is that you don't need brushes anymore. Problem solved. Stop overthinking things. Pick turn of a brushless motor. Make it the new stock class. Fix the timing. Pick a spot. Don't overthink things. 0 is a nice spot and it'll run cool. Pick any esc as long as it too has fixed timing at the same reference point as everyone else and no boost. Then use a 2S battery of any mah rating. Done. Simple. It couldn't be more fair or more even. Any suggestions claiming otherwise should then attempt to address how to make driver skill even as well since that's what it typically comes down to.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:31 AM   #149
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And today we are running them on motor analyzers, playing with timing, changing the gearing, and buying over voltage batteries.

Man it is the same, don't try to act like it isn't.

Only difference was the 27 turn motors were only $50 and brushes were $7 to $10 a set.
Dont forget you could barely run one class because no time to cut the comm and 10$ per rebuild cost us more than a brushless motor in the long run
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:19 PM   #150
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So, in order to be fair, it has to be spec? You can't honestly believe that. I thought if you followed the rules, that was being fair. If we all meet the rules, pass tech, and go race, that isn't fair?

Why do I need 0 timing, no boost, and any 2S battery? I already have a class legal / ROAR approved motor, no boost, and any 2S battery too but somehow that isn't deemed fair because of a $5 increase in motor cost. I would dare say you're the one overthinking this. You're suggesting national rule changes over $5?

Again, can someone point me the direction of logic.......cause I'm just not seeing it the argument.

It's simple, place your order with TSR for the $95 version, wait until you get it, then sell the one, two or more motors that you already have in your pit box for that very same class. You can simply sell them right on this site too. Now, your motor has cost you little to nothing additional out of pocket and if you've got a couple, you may actually make money in the process. At this point, you've spent $0 and now own a motor that gives you ABSOLUTELY no excuses. Or maybe, just maybe, that's the problem......
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