150LikesThe future of stock brushless motors?
02-21-2017, 07:31 AM
#1
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
The future of stock brushless motors?
Does anybody have any insight on ROAR motor specs for 2018?
Early reports from Snow Birds were that there was some push-back against exotic materials like thermal epoxy and other stuff. We know that even some motors that made all specs in terms of stator length and rotor dimensions were still frowned upon. We know that in the past one companies V3.5 motor 17.5 was dropped from ROAR.
Now we have either 4 or possibly 5 boutique motor companies who have found low IR copper and have the ability to wind them neatly. We also have the big players selling certified motors with 1450 gauss rotors while the boutique motors are often nearly 1600 gauss, even on the base models. I'm going make a wild guess that the new generation of boutique motors are 6% faster than the banned V3.5 ever was.
So without taking cheap shots any individual, has anybody heard anything about the future from ROAR?
Early reports from Snow Birds were that there was some push-back against exotic materials like thermal epoxy and other stuff. We know that even some motors that made all specs in terms of stator length and rotor dimensions were still frowned upon. We know that in the past one companies V3.5 motor 17.5 was dropped from ROAR.
Now we have either 4 or possibly 5 boutique motor companies who have found low IR copper and have the ability to wind them neatly. We also have the big players selling certified motors with 1450 gauss rotors while the boutique motors are often nearly 1600 gauss, even on the base models. I'm going make a wild guess that the new generation of boutique motors are 6% faster than the banned V3.5 ever was.
So without taking cheap shots any individual, has anybody heard anything about the future from ROAR?
02-21-2017, 07:37 AM
#2
I think roar wants to make 21.5t the new stock, not 17.5t...
02-21-2017, 07:41 AM
#3
This is not unlike the stock motor progression of the 90's. Stock motors, were "stock". then in an effort to improve RPM, you started seeing slotted rotors. (slot machine) Short rotors. Timing, copper, silver, and other brushes. Laydown brushes. Slotted cans, not round cans. Field boosting can over-wraps.
Thankfully hand winding was banned, because that added a lot to the cost.
Price was the big thing. Price... is a really good way of forcing a level playing field. maybe ROAR should put a very low price cap, and see what happens. :-)
Thankfully hand winding was banned, because that added a lot to the cost.
Price was the big thing. Price... is a really good way of forcing a level playing field. maybe ROAR should put a very low price cap, and see what happens. :-)
02-21-2017, 07:43 AM
#4
What happened at snowbirds really doesn't have anything to do with ROAR. This is from snowbirds own rules on motors:
"We will have our own inductance/resistance minimums and have ranges for each motor winds/brands (based on what is available over-the-counter and what was sent to Roar/Tour for original approvals). Motors too low (what we feel are outliers) will not be allowed to race. These will be marked and held until event is over."
"We will have our own inductance/resistance minimums and have ranges for each motor winds/brands (based on what is available over-the-counter and what was sent to Roar/Tour for original approvals). Motors too low (what we feel are outliers) will not be allowed to race. These will be marked and held until event is over."
02-21-2017, 07:51 AM
#6
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
Ok, good answer. I would also like to hear about specific design changes to level the big name and off brand motor with the boutique motors.
An example could be addressing the 17.5 minimum resistance per stator pole by allowing one turn to be removed (by the OEM factory) as long as the minimum resistance is maintained. I don't really know the numbers off the top of my head, but lets say a 17.5 big brand motor had 22k ohms and a boutique motor has 18k ohms. The big factory could make it's 17.5 model a 16.5 as long as 98% of the test units are above 18K ohms.
Another idea would be all spec rotors would be 7.25x12.5 AND have a guass between 1475 and 1550. (These are not ROAR numbers, just me stirring the pot.)
An example could be addressing the 17.5 minimum resistance per stator pole by allowing one turn to be removed (by the OEM factory) as long as the minimum resistance is maintained. I don't really know the numbers off the top of my head, but lets say a 17.5 big brand motor had 22k ohms and a boutique motor has 18k ohms. The big factory could make it's 17.5 model a 16.5 as long as 98% of the test units are above 18K ohms.
Another idea would be all spec rotors would be 7.25x12.5 AND have a guass between 1475 and 1550. (These are not ROAR numbers, just me stirring the pot.)
02-21-2017, 07:59 AM
#7
I doubt that they can spec the rotor strength without causing an uproar, unless the gauss figures go way past 2000 or something... Maybe Roar will start to spec the dyno sheets of all these motors too....lol.... Will that make a difference ??? Maybe not, when you can make your car's drivetrain more efficient to get the edge over your competitors in addition to upgrading your battery/supercapacitor package....
02-21-2017, 08:08 AM
#8
Tech Initiate
Does anybody have any insight on ROAR motor specs for 2018?
Early reports from Snow Birds were that there was some push-back against exotic materials like thermal epoxy and other stuff. We know that even some motors that made all specs in terms of stator length and rotor dimensions were still frowned upon. We know that in the past one companies V3.5 motor 17.5 was dropped from ROAR.
Now we have either 4 or possibly 5 boutique motor companies who have found low IR copper and have the ability to wind them neatly. We also have the big players selling certified motors with 1450 gauss rotors while the boutique motors are often nearly 1600 gauss, even on the base models. I'm going make a wild guess that the new generation of boutique motors are 6% faster than the banned V3.5 ever was.
So without taking cheap shots any individual, has anybody heard anything about the future from ROAR?
Early reports from Snow Birds were that there was some push-back against exotic materials like thermal epoxy and other stuff. We know that even some motors that made all specs in terms of stator length and rotor dimensions were still frowned upon. We know that in the past one companies V3.5 motor 17.5 was dropped from ROAR.
Now we have either 4 or possibly 5 boutique motor companies who have found low IR copper and have the ability to wind them neatly. We also have the big players selling certified motors with 1450 gauss rotors while the boutique motors are often nearly 1600 gauss, even on the base models. I'm going make a wild guess that the new generation of boutique motors are 6% faster than the banned V3.5 ever was.
So without taking cheap shots any individual, has anybody heard anything about the future from ROAR?
02-21-2017, 08:17 AM
#9
02-21-2017, 08:28 AM
#10
This would be a different story where ROAR would be imposing new rules and regulation on motors. I can only imagine what would happen to R1, Fantom and TSR if they kill the newer motors. And yes, these newer motors are significantly faster than my D4. This is just another stock motor game where improvements continue. This is racing and development is a part of it. Some of the other big names in the game just need to step it up to compete with these newer motors.
This motor of the week club is one of the big reasons why I dislike "stock" racing. And if I was good enough to race mod competitively I would so that I wouldn't feel the need to buy the best battery/esc/motor of the month. I feel like I am somewhere stuck in the middle of disliking stock and mod being too difficult to be competitive. I am sure I am not alone.
I think ROAR is in enough trouble as it is. Look at the Carpet Nats...they aren't getting the participation. Why is it that we see these independent races like MHIC, SnowBirds, Hudy Race, Indoor Carpet Nats, Full Throttle Champs, etc. getting huge participation compared to ROAR national events?
02-21-2017, 08:57 AM
#11
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
I'm more interested in seeing a rule change that brings the $70 motors within 2 laps of the high end motors in stock classes. Being 7 laps down because of a motor war doesn't help the hobby in general. This is assuming a clean run by similar drivers of course. The Boutique motors still weigh less and run cooler. That wouldn't change. It would be easier to invest in the current good stuff if we knew it wasn't going to be almost useless in 8 months of development.
02-21-2017, 09:36 AM
#12
I'm more interested in seeing a rule change that brings the $70 motors within 2 laps of the high end motors in stock classes. Being 7 laps down because of a motor war doesn't help the hobby in general. This is assuming a clean run by similar drivers of course. The Boutique motors still weigh less and run cooler. That wouldn't change. It would be easier to invest in the current good stuff if we knew it wasn't going to be almost useless in 8 months of development.
Only adding up to maby a lap with same driver. But I will say we have one club racer at our track that can run faster lap times with a yr old motor and win against 2 of the nation's top drivers with there top of the line motors ...
02-21-2017, 09:44 AM
#13
I think ROAR is in enough trouble as it is. Look at the Carpet Nats...they aren't getting the participation. Why is it that we see these independent races like MHIC, SnowBirds, Hudy Race, Indoor Carpet Nats, Full Throttle Champs, etc. getting huge participation compared to ROAR national events?
02-21-2017, 09:48 AM
#14
Tech Master
iTrader: (32)
I'm trying to not point fingers at anyone, nor do I have anything bad to say about any of them. In fact I will be buying one of these as soon as the supply catches up with the back orders. I have also had some good setup help from some of these guys when pitting with their team drivers.I'm thankful for the help and happy to know some of them. Working hard within the current rules isn't wrong.
I'm more interested in seeing a rule change that brings the $70 motors within 2 laps of the high end motors in stock classes. Being 7 laps down because of a motor war doesn't help the hobby in general. This is assuming a clean run by similar drivers of course. The Boutique motors still weigh less and run cooler. That wouldn't change. It would be easier to invest in the current good stuff if we knew it wasn't going to be almost useless in 8 months of development.
I'm more interested in seeing a rule change that brings the $70 motors within 2 laps of the high end motors in stock classes. Being 7 laps down because of a motor war doesn't help the hobby in general. This is assuming a clean run by similar drivers of course. The Boutique motors still weigh less and run cooler. That wouldn't change. It would be easier to invest in the current good stuff if we knew it wasn't going to be almost useless in 8 months of development.
Now, 1 or 2 laps, all else being equal... maybe.- Jose
02-21-2017, 10:00 AM
#15
I agree, it looks like a decent turnout but they opened up stock spec classes to mod racers because they aren't getting the participation they want. There is a facebook post from them stating that. They also stated the possibility of dropping F1 and 235 Pan car due to low participation.