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Old 02-24-2017, 03:08 PM   #121
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Maybe make it so that Spec classes are for your private racers only, ie no sponsored drivers (and that is a term that would need to be VERY well defined, to me it should encompass ANY level of sponsorship from discounts in exchange for comments to payments based on results / sales etc)

If you're good enough to be sponsored, run Mod.
That old chestnut.

Just because someone is able to negotiate a better price than the next person you think they should be forced to run a harder class.

Ridiculous.

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Old 02-24-2017, 03:19 PM   #122
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They should just go old school rules for todays brushless motors, lock the endbells at 24 degrees and make stock motor a 27 turn and only spec esc's so no timing can be added. Boom equal playing field again.
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:07 PM   #123
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Manufacturers don't sell motors if people don't buy them. And why would people buy a new motor if the old one is just as good? See the incentive to push the envelope?

Threads like these always come back to two kinds of solutions. Regulate the bejesus out of the motor or try something indirect, like limiting the gearing or some such. I think the latter has more of a chance to stick, because regulating is never going to be perfect, or some ingenious manufacturer will always find some new technology that didn't exist last year and push the envelope again. Perhaps we could take a look at the TCS series and just measure some simple motor parameter (we can do rev, current, timing etc. at a given voltage or just go fixed FDR) and leave manufacturers to do whatever they want. After all you can't control what they're doing anyway. This approach would also have the benefit of removing the incentive to buy a million motors hoping you'll find the better one of a batch.
This is the tail wagging the dog approach. If you let the builder/designer have the say in pushing the envelope and the racers have to follow their lead, the manufacturers become the tail of the dog. We the buyer of the motor will chase the next best thing, our own tail so be it, just to be competitive. The dictation of what we want should be pushed through the sanctioning body and the manufacturer should then comply. Instead we get creative ways for the manufacturer to bypass the system and create whatever the hell they want and push it through a testing system that has more holes than a sieve. Will it make design stale? Who cares. Close the loopholes so we don't lose any more racers over motor wars.
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:00 PM   #124
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Will it make design stale? Who cares. Close the loopholes so we don't lose any more racers over motor wars.
Making the design of spec racing motors "stale" would be the best thing that could happen. In a perfect world, they would be identical in design, with all parts interchangeable. A stable, unchanging, "stale" design would, over the years, increase performance parity and reduce cost to the racer. It also eliminates the problem of manufacturers who don't happen to have the newest "motor of the month"-- and their distributors and retailers-- from getting stuck with a whole bunch of old motors that suddenly have little value.
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:35 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
This is the tail wagging the dog approach. If you let the builder/designer have the say in pushing the envelope and the racers have to follow their lead, the manufacturers become the tail of the dog. We the buyer of the motor will chase the next best thing, our own tail so be it, just to be competitive. The dictation of what we want should be pushed through the sanctioning body and the manufacturer should then comply. Instead we get creative ways for the manufacturer to bypass the system and create whatever the hell they want and push it through a testing system that has more holes than a sieve. Will it make design stale? Who cares. Close the loopholes so we don't lose any more racers over motor wars.
I am not sure what you are trying to say.

How would you force a manufacturer to comply? They are not bound by your rules.

You can only to force them to comply indirectly, as I explained above, by trying to minimise the impact of the motor on your lap times, which removes any scope in buying the latest and greatest.

And isn't going to fixed gearing closing all the loopholes left when trying to regulate the motor itself?

Howard is right. Who cares about who wags what, or if the design is stale? I would actually say the design is stable. Just like the design of cars. That brings competition between manufacturers about, and prices start to drop and everybody can easily afford the product.
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Old 02-24-2017, 08:18 PM   #126
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I am not sure what you are trying to say.

How would you force a manufacturer to comply? They are not bound by your rules.
That part is fairly simple. If the manufacturer makes a motor that doesn't comply with the rules, nobody would buy that motor.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:41 PM   #127
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That part is fairly simple. If the manufacturer makes a motor that doesn't comply with the rules, nobody would buy that motor.
Yeah, in the context of our discussion, we are concerned with manufacturers "pushing the envelope" (with new technology, exotic materials, regulatory loopholes, you name it), which I think has been demonstrated by past experience is difficult to tackle by regulation.
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Old 02-25-2017, 02:11 AM   #128
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It's racing someone is always looking for something new to get an edge within the rules and I don't understand why people seem to be against the new motors that are faster and more efficient anyone can buy one. A fixed fdr is not really the answer because not all motors work well on same gearing so you would be getting the motor that works best for that fdr. There will be a point at which the current construction requirement and materials won't get better but will that mean that one is better than the next very well could be but driving style is a factor what's fast for one is not necessarily fast for the next. If motors meet the requirements speced and follow the rules then what's the argument those brands that are not the leaders just have to catch up.
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Old 02-25-2017, 05:22 AM   #129
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Good morning....I thought I read over this thread again....

FDR wont work...
Spec motor wont work...
Company bully wont work....
Lock timing wont work....
hummm...did I miss one?...well if I did, it wont work either....The only thing that will work...Only thing...is ROAR to modify the rules on IR, and material used to make motors....simple

so why we wait to see what changes come down the pipe....you guys on the club level that bought these NEW motors....slap your old motor in and race with your buddies that dont have them...and If your club is like mine where everyone has them, just drive better....funny thing is....the new motors locally, and at the 3-4 tracks Ive traveled to, nobody had older motors except, a very small few(incl me)...so that tells me people have already pony up for the new stuff....and honestly, I didnt see a drop in racers...and locally everyone got new stuff and I see the same guys....except me again...lol

so I say this...wait for ROAR, or get a NEW motor, or worry about other things that you can improve on to be faster.
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Old 02-25-2017, 07:34 AM   #130
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FDR wont work...
Spec motor wont work...
Company bully wont work....
Lock timing wont work....
Longer mains

Who's old enough to remember the old days of carpet racing? You know, when you could race any class you wanted, as long as it was 12th scale. 12th scale races are 8 minutes long. Anyone know why it's 8 minutes? Because at the time there was no way you could last 8 minutes going flat out. The hottest motor in the world wouldn't help because the batteries wouldn't last. So everyone worked on the most efficient setup they could possibly find. And driving focused on the cleanest lines, not the stab and steer we have today. Tell the truth Darkside, somewhere you have a radio with a little piece of foam stuck to it preventing you from going full throttle unless you needed it.

PS Longer mains only! If anything qualifiers should be shortened.
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Old 02-25-2017, 07:37 AM   #131
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Yeah, in the context of our discussion, we are concerned with manufacturers "pushing the envelope" (with new technology, exotic materials, regulatory loopholes, you name it), which I think has been demonstrated by past experience is difficult to tackle by regulation.
Yes this is true, yet the guys and girls running F1 and VTA are pretty calm and happy since the motor specs and stator IR have been clearly defined. They still get beat by Team Scream motors. The difference is they get beat by half a lap rather than 4 laps and a good driver can work with that.
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Old 02-25-2017, 07:37 AM   #132
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ROAR is not going to make any changes unless the racers demand it.
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Old 02-25-2017, 07:38 AM   #133
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Yes this is true, yet the guys and girls running F1 and VTA are pretty calm and happy since the motor specs and stator IR have been clearly defined. They still get beat by Team Scream motors. The difference is they get beat by half a lap rather than 4 laps and a good driver can work with that.
It also helps that the really good racers usually stay out of these classes.
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Old 02-25-2017, 07:54 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Eddie_E View Post
Yes this is true, yet the guys and girls running F1 and VTA are pretty calm and happy since the motor specs and stator IR have been clearly defined. They still get beat by Team Scream motors. The difference is they get beat by half a lap rather than 4 laps and a good driver can work with that.
who gets beat by TSR motor?...lol
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Old 02-25-2017, 08:11 AM   #135
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If the motors were exactly the same , the manufacturers would go nuts trying to make a lighter, yet more fragile car. And the battery manufacturers would go nuts as well. Even more so than today. My point is, it would still be a money war.
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