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Old 03-01-2017, 01:41 AM   #196
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I have done some stock racing classes with brushed and brushless so I have seen and know some things that happen. My opinion:

Get rid of the sensor based motors systems. As mentioned before, when people have their motors a lot of tweaking is done with it and basically most tweaking is sensor related to get/add more and a beter equal timing. I know many drivers are not happy with sensorless systems due a worse driveabillity but I have seen pretty good sensorless ESC's and for sure when it becomes a racing class the manufacturers will make the sensorless ESC better.
In this way you can also do a locked endbell.

Get rid of the free motor choice. The ETS touring is using one brand/model handout motor and the tolerances are all very close to specs. This will prevent you of buying a worse choice or the need to buy more different motors to see which is best. So one motor and ofcourse bought and kept by the organiser to prevent home tweaking.

When this is set then a FDR limit will work and maybe needed so people will not burn motors when trying to gain speed.
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Old 03-01-2017, 05:57 AM   #197
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WELCOME BACK ROELOF!!!

The problem with modified is it's too fast. I've even heard from the guys at the local track here (which happens to be the home of the Carpet Nats) that 17.5 is too fast. So you have the really good racers running 17.5 because it's easier on equipment. There's no fix for that.

The easiest and simple fix for the motor of the month is easy; get rid of blinky! If your motor is a little slower, a couple tweaks to the speed control can fix that.
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:11 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
WELCOME BACK ROELOF!!!

The problem with modified is it's too fast. I've even heard from the guys at the local track here (which happens to be the home of the Carpet Nats) that 17.5 is too fast. So you have the really good racers running 17.5 because it's easier on equipment. There's no fix for that.

The easiest and simple fix for the motor of the month is easy; get rid of blinky! If your motor is a little slower, a couple tweaks to the speed control can fix that.

Rinse and repeat...

SO then I am looking for the best timing/punch ESC out there. It is a vicious cycle.
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:18 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
WELCOME BACK ROELOF!!!

The problem with modified is it's too fast. I've even heard from the guys at the local track here (which happens to be the home of the Carpet Nats) that 17.5 is too fast. So you have the really good racers running 17.5 because it's easier on equipment. There's no fix for that.

The easiest and simple fix for the motor of the month is easy; get rid of blinky! If your motor is a little slower, a couple tweaks to the speed control can fix that.
But if 17.5 is already too fast this dont help...
i like the ets idea
let companies bid on which motor to use for one indoor season (iic-roar nats)
then its up for grabs for offroad and so on. set fdr is fine ,handouts are fine
sensorless, i dont like that idea.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:00 AM   #200
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sensorless, i dont like that idea.
Why? The weird cogging moment when starting from standing still? As mentioned I have seen ESC's which are good in this and when driving you should not notice it. It will rule out the many issues with tolerances and tweaking arround the sensors.
Beside that, the whole world outside the racing scene is running sensorless....
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:07 AM   #201
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Sensorless operation effectively eliminates Blinky operation, since dynamic timing is easily done with sensorless motors and it is much more difficult to test for it. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad-- but it is true.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:42 AM   #202
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Iím going to throw my .02 here. Iíve been doing this since the early 90ís, way back when the brushed motor endbells were locked. If you really want to solve this issue, have ROAR pick a motor manufacturer and have the endbells locked and fixed so that you canít screw with it, and make sure they can keep the price down to around $50-55 dollars and keep the ESCís on blinky. Also, have it up for review every year at the same time to give the motor manufacturerís a fair shot.
We had our local fast guy run last Sunday with the new Motiv motor and he went from a hot lap of 8.9 down to 8.5ís and 6ís, just by changing the motor. So now guess whoís going to be spending more money? The rest of us.
IMO, we have went from spending $45 on a good brushed motor to $150 on up for a good brushless motor. Someone stated in this thread that they were spending the same amount for brushed motors back in the day. I have to disagree with that. I remember running the same green machine motor (I think) for the better part of a year and was competitive. The only thing I had to do was true the com every so often, and replace the brushes. I bet I didnít spend over $70 for a motor budget for the year unless something new came out and I wanted to give it a try.
If I had my way, we would keep the battery technology and go back to brushed motors. Iím sorry but brushless motors havenít saved the hobby, theyíve killed everyoneís checkbook.
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:48 AM   #203
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If I had my way, we would keep the battery technology and go back to brushed motors. Iím sorry but brushless motors havenít saved the hobby, theyíve killed everyoneís checkbook.
That's a little hyperbole, I think. People still race silver can in some circles and I think they're nuts for doing so.

Hopefully before too long all the motors produced will have found the limit and basically be the same.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:35 AM   #204
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Bushings really? Thought the point was to make it cheaper with bushings you would be replacing often if you want to be fast
We had bushings in 27-turn. They are a serviceable/replaceable item. It's one more thing to help bring the price down, slow down and separate "stock" from faster classes. Replacing bushings every once in a while is inexpensive and still beats replacing brushes and cutting comms constantly IMO. I'm only partially serious BTW. Just trying to answer the concerns I see brought up.

BTW, trying to be the fastest guy in any controlled class is going to be expensive because you are constantly trying to buy that last little bit of speed. It's only when you have too much power for the car/track that you don't go spending dollars on that last 1/10th. You have to look to your driving and setup. The flip side of that is that the faster speeds of modified are much harder on tires and other equipment should you have a "board meeting."
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:27 AM   #205
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I thought the reason why brushless motors cost more, and why old modified motors cost more, was because both are/where hand wound. The old production brushed motor where all machine wound, and as far as currently, they have to hand wind the stators which is labour intensive and more expensive.
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:43 AM   #206
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That's a little hyperbole, I think. People still race silver can in some circles and I think they're nuts for doing so.
Over here the stock Tamiya races are done with a Carson Cupmachine, it is a 23 turn silvercan just costng 10 euro. A brushes ESC just cost about 20 euro (on ebay even 10 euro). The motors are pretty equal and can hold on for a season racing but hey, lets spend money and do a fresh motor every race (6 races), it is stll much cheaper than 1 brushless combo....

Why nuts?
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:59 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Over here the stock Tamiya races are done with a Carson Cupmachine, it is a 23 turn silvercan just costng 10 euro. A brushes ESC just cost about 20 euro (on ebay even 10 euro). The motors are pretty equal and can hold on for a season racing but hey, lets spend money and do a fresh motor every race (6 races), it is stll much cheaper than 1 brushless combo....

Why nuts?
It's the electronic equivalent of putting a Model T Ford engine in a formula 1 car. A $10 saddle on a $2 horse.

From a more practical perspective, I think it would be more beneficial to racers in the series to run a spec locked timing brushless motor so racers would better learn about brushless gear, how it works, and how it drives.

I don't know if its a just-for-fun class or a beginner class or a hardcore all-out race class, but if its popular and gets people to come to the track, keep it up.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:09 AM   #208
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IMO every tries too hard to buy the fastest esc, motor, car rather than taking the time to learn to drive, setup a car and not make mistakes.
If you have that motor that will give you that .1 sec a lap and you have to be marshaled once that advantage is blown. Winning is great, but only one can win every class. Get out there do your best and have fun while doing it.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:16 AM   #209
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If you guys want to eliminate the motor of the month issue I have a simple solution for you as suggested by a friend of mine. motor claim like is done in dirt tack racing. The theory goes like this, the track or sanctioning body (ROAR) would set a claim price and anyone can then claim the winning driver's motor at the set price. Just for example lets say that price is set at $80, very few are going to keep spending $175+ on special motors only to have it claimed after the first race. There you go no special restrictions or difficult to enforce rules, simple and effective way to get racers to work on setup and driving over motors.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:27 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
It's the electronic equivalent of putting a Model T Ford engine in a formula 1 car. A $10 saddle on a $2 horse.

From a more practical perspective, I think it would be more beneficial to racers in the series to run a spec locked timing brushless motor so racers would better learn about brushless gear, how it works, and how it drives.

I don't know if its a just-for-fun class or a beginner class or a hardcore all-out race class, but if its popular and gets people to come to the track, keep it up.
We are talking about stock racing, the stuff where you Americans would like to see the slow 21.5 or even 25.5 turns brushless. The Carson Cupmachine is much faster.....
I hate it that drivers do find brushed oldskool and a bad idea but like many of these topics say that brushless is also no solution.
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