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Old 02-27-2017, 08:18 PM   #181
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DesertRat, I think you clearly misunderstood starxx. I met him Nashville at the USVTA Southern Nats about 5yrs ago and have raced with him there every year since. He's a good dude and a very helpful guy to race against. Being a pure asphalt guy, I for truly appreciated his help on the carpet.
I don't know anything about the guy besides what he posted here, and that was try harder and you can close the gap. AND I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH HIM! That is absolutely true in a class with 15 local entrants where a little effort and some talent will go a long way, but its hard to argue that is a solution to the Motor Of The Week problem plaguing spec motor RC racing right now.

As recently as 2009, one snippet from the ROAR rulebook for stock brushed motors read as such:

8.5.3.2 Approved stock motors must be commercially available through hobby distributors and hobby dealers nationwide. Maximum retail Brushed price of $46, including any after market tuning and preparation.

This is an explicit cost control measure. Today there is actually a rule stating that motors should cost less than $150, but notably absent is the "including any after market tuning and preparation" part, so that's how we have $200 motors.

the entire rules are listed here:

http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/..._Rule_Book.pdf

The rules governing a 27 turn stock brushed motor took up three full pages, and every dimension was a fixed value.

By comparison, the ROAR rules governing ALL brushless motors from 21.5 to 1/8 scale take up just over three pages. Is this because brushless motors are a simpler design? I don't know, but at the very least brushless stock should have had a locked timing point.

Starxx is right, if you have the talent and effort down to where you're good enough to be 2 or 3 tenths faster than the next fastest guy you race against no matter what you have no reason to play Motor Of The Week. But what if you are a local hotshot and you want to do what you've always dreamed of: Make the stock A MAIN at a national event? I think there is enough evidence of the benefits of power to say that even if I were as fast and consistent in my setup and driving lines as the perennial stock favorites like Andrew Knapp or Eric Anderson or Kyle Klingforth I would have a really hard time of it with a tired old motor.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:34 PM   #182
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My mistake, I was referring to his VTA motor and not stock. Again, my mistake Mr Lyons lol. All good.
Vta is the perfect example of how motor rules need to be handled... That way motor wars are not as noticeable . Pick a motor and go have fun no worries about HP... Just work on setup and driving ... (Yes some will start to explore batteries and other stuff ) but at our track we already have that area handled with our local hero . Lol we all just follow his lead from the first purchase, but when he is swapping out 10 motors trying to find a advantage we are all wanting to do the same . Lol
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:02 AM   #183
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Crc Raceway in Rome NY has the biggest on road turnout in the country every Thursday night during the season, The reason is 1/12 stock uses a mandatory 21.5 handout motor, Its cheap,competitive, And everyone running 1/12 stock uses it. It's usually three or four or more qualifiers deep. No sponsors, No 50% off guys, It's the best money I've ever spent racing.
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:59 AM   #184
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DesertRat, you're correct you won't make the A-main against those guys with an old motor. In fact, for most, using a new motor still isn't going to help.

jlfx, I'm very familiar with the level playing field in 25.5 and fortunately a handle on that motor class happened early on. I don't think it's very often that EA has had to swap out 10 motors to try and keep up with the field, he's usually on the other end of things lol. I would guess that you're talking about Snowbirds, maybe I'm wrong? I have bought a lot of equipment through him over the years, since about 2005 or so and I would say this; having a tuned motor from him back in the day was a very comforting feeling. I also used his batteries as I believed that only he and one other battery matcher were guys I could really trust with the numbers. BUT, also keep in mind that EA was able to go through a lot of stock and 19t motors and certainly had the ability to either keep or do what he needed to do for his sponsored drivers and loyal customers. So, I'd say at that time, technically he did go through a lot motors to find those that may help provide the results he and his team were looking for. So, yes, maybe he did have to search and swap motors recently, and more than normal but back in the day all that searching was done "beforehand" when it came to a big race. I firmly believe he's still a guy that we all respect and trust. I for one would like to see him continue trying to move forward with a position on the ROAR board. Maybe it would help us all.
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:33 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
I don't know anything about the guy besides what he posted here, and that was try harder and you can close the gap. AND I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH HIM! That is absolutely true in a class with 15 local entrants where a little effort and some talent will go a long way, but its hard to argue that is a solution to the Motor Of The Week problem plaguing spec motor RC racing right now.

As recently as 2009, one snippet from the ROAR rulebook for stock brushed motors read as such:

8.5.3.2 Approved stock motors must be commercially available through hobby distributors and hobby dealers nationwide. Maximum retail Brushed price of $46, including any after market tuning and preparation.

This is an explicit cost control measure. Today there is actually a rule stating that motors should cost less than $150, but notably absent is the "including any after market tuning and preparation" part, so that's how we have $200 motors.

the entire rules are listed here:

http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/..._Rule_Book.pdf

The rules governing a 27 turn stock brushed motor took up three full pages, and every dimension was a fixed value.

By comparison, the ROAR rules governing ALL brushless motors from 21.5 to 1/8 scale take up just over three pages. Is this because brushless motors are a simpler design? I don't know, but at the very least brushless stock should have had a locked timing point.

Starxx is right, if you have the talent and effort down to where you're good enough to be 2 or 3 tenths faster than the next fastest guy you race against no matter what you have no reason to play Motor Of The Week. But what if you are a local hotshot and you want to do what you've always dreamed of: Make the stock A MAIN at a national event? I think there is enough evidence of the benefits of power to say that even if I were as fast and consistent in my setup and driving lines as the perennial stock favorites like Andrew Knapp or Eric Anderson or Kyle Klingforth I would have a really hard time of it with a tired old motor.
I see the difference between brushed and brushless was that 27deg mills' life span was hella short. The combination of sky-high gearing (no choice if you wanted to go fast) and comm truing all the time meant you had to go through a bunch of them all the time. So this meant $46 quite a few times a year. I still have boxes of Paradoxe's and P2K's at home... I'm not even telling you about Putnam brushes

Wearing out brushes, and hence comms, is a thing of the past. Gearing-wise, you need to try really hard to toast a BL today, unless you gear it really really wrong, in which case it doesn't work well anyway.

Manufacturers / motor builders / retailers had to do something about their declining cash flow
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:36 AM   #186
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Yes I agree . Think he oil help as well .
But I was referring to beore birds ,just attempting to insure that he wasn't leaving HP option untested . Vegas it was clear that the TSR was the motor to have,with the R1 not far behind (cause of its rpm range) then snowbirds the motiv came in and shard the spotlight with TSR ,as the Trinity pulled out its one off motors to attempt to match the speeds just to fall off later in the runs . Fantom seemed to have a few 100% drivers in the mix also but he could drive a Tyco into the A..
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Old 02-28-2017, 07:25 AM   #187
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Yes I agree . Think he oil help as well .
But I was referring to beore birds ,just attempting to insure that he wasn't leaving HP option untested . Vegas it was clear that the TSR was the motor to have,with the R1 not far behind (cause of its rpm range) then snowbirds the motiv came in and shard the spotlight with TSR ,as the Trinity pulled out its one off motors to attempt to match the speeds just to fall off later in the runs . Fantom seemed to have a few 100% drivers in the mix also but he could drive a Tyco into the A..
Understood. Maybe the answer for having a true stock class is to make it using 25.5. In roar based races, this forces drivers in 17.5 to step up to mod, or down to 25.5. It also gives clear differentiation between the class speeds. This also makes the stock class have a very level playing field for the motors.

In the end, it may cause 17.5 to look for new home, or it may kinda go by the wayside like the 10.5 did. The 13.5 has taken the place of mod here at least in on-road but it still doesn't have the following 17.5 does. The new motor designs have also impacted the 21.5 class as well so it can't be really used as stock but it does have a home in USGT. So, maybe 25.5 is the answer...... So who is going to step up and carry that banner forward? Otherwise this is all just conversation that will ultimately amount to nothing
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:25 AM   #188
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Understood. Maybe the answer for having a true stock class is to make it using 25.5. In roar based races, this forces drivers in 17.5 to step up to mod, or down to 25.5. It also gives clear differentiation between the class speeds. This also makes the stock class have a very level playing field for the motors.

In the end, it may cause 17.5 to look for new home, or it may kinda go by the wayside like the 10.5 did. The 13.5 has taken the place of mod here at least in on-road but it still doesn't have the following 17.5 does. The new motor designs have also impacted the 21.5 class as well so it can't be really used as stock but it does have a home in USGT. So, maybe 25.5 is the answer...... So who is going to step up and carry that banner forward? Otherwise this is all just conversation that will ultimately amount to nothing
That does make sense but I feel that would really bunch up some panties. Lol
Especially since we only have 2 drivers at our track that have any business running mod . There are probably 5 that would but would be moving road blocks ,or dnfs thruout the day , several that run vta that I'm sure want want there classes deluted. And we even have about 10 (30%) of your core group that travel to large races. Hopefully they will just implement a few extra rule specs to the current 17.5s to keep the class stable , or if nothing else I see 21.5 becoming the new stock spec class to allow motor wars to continue to the point of dnfs due to too thin of a web design ... But as you said it's just talk at this point ... Which keeps our minds occupied from daily stress . Lol
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:17 AM   #189
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Texas is leading the way with a strong 25.5 TC Class statewide. So perhaps that movement may have some significant push.
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:42 PM   #190
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jlfx, I totally agree with you and hear what you're saying. I believe there would also be a lot of pushback from the masses and from the manufacturers if changes to the specs were now made for 17.5. The options aren't many but it is entertaining to discuss lol.

bdmpastx - glad to hear it. I have heard of some 25.5 TC's making a run at some smaller tracks here as well. I have run VTA both indoors and outdoors and honestly, I don't see it being too slow for those trying to get into the hobby or for those who just aren't comfortable at faster speeds. Our track, Valkaria R/C is quite large and a 25.5 hits decent speed even in a VTA set-up. Also, the smaller the track, the quicker reflexes have to be. Some guys would rather race TC at slower, more controllable speeds.
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:55 PM   #191
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Crc Raceway in Rome NY has the biggest on road turnout in the country every Thursday night during the season, The reason is 1/12 stock uses a mandatory 21.5 handout motor, Its cheap,competitive, And everyone running 1/12 stock uses it. It's usually three or four or more qualifiers deep. No sponsors, No 50% off guys, It's the best money I've ever spent racing.
Which bodies are you running? We tried the 21.5 on our small track and it was like watching paint dry. We were still running wedge bodies though. We thought about trying PFM12 bodies to free up the cars, but we started a WGTR class instead.

I'd run a 13.5 1/12 handout class. I just don't see 21.5 on 1S, even though I love it in USGT. Which motor is the handout?

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Old 02-28-2017, 05:43 PM   #192
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Bushings, locked timing, minimum resistance spec and a $79 price cap. Manufacturers will figure out how to build them within those specs.
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:48 PM   #193
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I have to ask.. why bushings? That would make guys buy new motors every other race. When bushings start to go bad rotor would get a bad vibration and sensor board wouldn't get a clean signal.
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Old 02-28-2017, 07:34 PM   #194
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Bushings, locked timing, minimum resistance spec and a $79 price cap. Manufacturers will figure out how to build them within those specs.
Bushings really? Thought the point was to make it cheaper with bushings you would be replacing often if you want to be fast
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:33 AM   #195
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What I am saying is that we can compete by improving driving skill and car prep. Or buy faster equipment.

Personally I get more satisfaction with improving my driving and car prep.



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Ya gotta love the good ol' "Git Gud Skrub" comment after someone pulls you four feet every lap on the straight and out accelerates you in every power section. I've won my share of races when the guy behind me had more power, but when I bolted up a new motor and instantly cut tenths of my best lap time, was that because I was suddenly a better driver and mechanic? Power matters a lot, and the less of it the class you race in is allowed to have it becomes more apparent how much having just a little more than the next guy can improve your finishing order. This is why oval guys are so crazy about maximizing power.
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