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Old 02-27-2017, 02:50 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by massenb203 View Post
IMO if you are being consistent with fast lap time and still getting beat. You might be out motor.
Been there done that ( just yesterday ) Fast Lap was 12.3 Avg was 12.7, car is a rocket, but when you get pulled down the straight every lap by someone equally as good,( maybe a little better, kid was on fire yesterday ) you have no hope without buying the motor of the week.

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Old 02-27-2017, 03:36 PM   #167
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well all I got to say is we had 15 usgt cars at a club race....10 out of the 15 had the newer style motors...from TSR..MC2 & so on....I TQ'ED & won with the old Motiv motor...so I would say its more then motor...its driving & setup..& when I say setup...I just don't mean chassis..i mean radio..esc also...I work on my car all day until I took TQ in the 3rd round & the win in the main....all I'm saying is you can close the gap if you work on other parts other then motor...IJS
You act like the motor you were running was some old piece of junk. Motiv didn't even sell motors until mid 2015. You won a race against club racers running modern motors with a modern motor that pushed the rules at the time to the ragged edge and probably set you back $120 when new, if you didn't buy one that was special in any way, and that's the problem.

RC motors shouldn't be considered a cheapo bargain at 'only' $100 and shouldn't be noticeably slower than a new motor when its replacement comes out after only 8 months. To put the leaps in motor tech we have weathered into perspective, the 27 turn brushed Trinity P2K came out in 1999, I think, and the Paradox in 1996 if I remember correctly, both motors were perfectly serviceable and in classes even better than brand new 27 turn stock brushed motors nearly a decade later when the transition to brushless motors became law. Why? Because the rule book was as rigid as a steel beam and didn't allow people to read between the lines.

Teams and manufacturers also shouldn't be able to test and segregate out "sweet" motors and charge double for them. Every motor should be a sweet motor, not just the ones you pay $200 for, and yes, I have seen racers fork over two Benjamin's for a 17.5.

I know I've said earlier in this thread that we can expect the advancement of motor tech and power to slow down as the rules are finalized, but I hope it comes soon. Since the death of Boost which kicked off the hardware battles we have gotten so jaded to Motor of the Month that Starxx stated without irony that a nearly new motor like a Motiv M Code is "the old Motiv" and proof that you don't need a new sweet motor to win. I have a never soldered up LRP X12 21.5 that hails from the Bush administration and I will send to anyone who claims they don't need a new motor to win. Its a quick way to make your touring car feel 300 grams heavier.
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:07 PM   #168
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You act like the motor you were running was some old piece of junk. Motiv didn't even sell motors until mid 2015. You won a race against club racers running modern motors with a modern motor that pushed the rules at the time to the ragged edge and probably set you back $120 when new, if you didn't buy one that was special in any way, and that's the problem.

RC motors shouldn't be considered a cheapo bargain at 'only' $100 and shouldn't be noticeably slower than a new motor when its replacement comes out after only 8 months. To put the leaps in motor tech we have weathered into perspective, the 27 turn brushed Trinity P2K came out in 1999, I think, and the Paradox in 1996 if I remember correctly, both motors were perfectly serviceable and in classes even better than brand new 27 turn stock brushed motors nearly a decade later when the transition to brushless motors became law. Why? Because the rule book was as rigid as a steel beam and didn't allow people to read between the lines.

Teams and manufacturers also shouldn't be able to test and segregate out "sweet" motors and charge double for them. Every motor should be a sweet motor, not just the ones you pay $200 for, and yes, I have seen racers fork over two Benjamin's for a 17.5.

I know I've said earlier in this thread that we can expect the advancement of motor tech and power to slow down as the rules are finalized, but I hope it comes soon. Since the death of Boost which kicked off the hardware battles we have gotten so jaded to Motor of the Month that Starxx stated without irony that a nearly new motor like a Motiv M Code is "the old Motiv" and proof that you don't need a new sweet motor to win. I have a never soldered up LRP X12 21.5 that hails from the Bush administration and I will send to anyone who claims they don't need a new motor to win. Its a quick way to make your touring car feel 300 grams heavier.
send me your lrp x12 21.5
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:14 PM   #169
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Honestly how brushless Y wind motor works and how they will perform are well understood in terms of physics and dynamics. If some well versed individual felt the need to max out motor performance for a particular turn for a particular operating range under the current set of regulations, it should have happened already. Under the current rule there is really not much more you can optimize for anyways.

Since the current rules are a little more flexible than the old days for brushed motor, manufactures are releasing incrementally better motors over time to maximize profit. And it's all driven by racer's need to go faster. Think of it like computer chips from Intel. Over the years they always knew exactly how to make a faster chip but they artificially pace the release of newer faster products to get maximum profit over a longer period of time.

Selling motors is a business. You can't tell manufactures to profit less because you're mad at how much you have to spend on new motors to beat your buddies. They are counting it.

If anyone wants to change the situation, I suggest the following:

1. Start a motor company and produce by far the best performing stock motors and sell them for no more than what every other manufacture sell their's at.

2. Convince ROAR somehow (probably will never happen) to rewrite the rules where all stock motors produced in the future will follow the technical specifications of your current motor exactly.

And congratulation you just made stock racing cheaper in terms of motor. Now people will start to spend lots of money elsewhere to gain an edge. At the end the more heavily invested person will still be faster than you. But this time he spend more time and money on something else you can complain about. And racing continues.....

Personally I don't mind the motor war since it still follows free market principles. As long as everyone in the hobby can agree on saving a well regulated, low cost, and easy to drive class for beginners, I'll be more than happy. And currently I think such racing class is hard to find in the US. The current stock classes for both on road and off road are anything but that for new comers.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:27 PM   #170
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send me your lrp x12 21.5
What, you think so little of the other racers at your LHS that you can win with a ten year old motor? Ten bucks for the shipping and you can have my favorite paperweight. If power isn't important I have an equally old LiPo to send you as well.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:50 PM   #171
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What, you think so little of the other racers at your LHS that you can win with a ten year old motor? Ten bucks for the shipping and you can have my favorite paperweight. If power isn't important I have an equally old LiPo to send you as well.
I value my ppl...I help my ppl..I coach my ppl..any track I go to is my home track...I work very hard on setup..driving & I do a lot of research & testing...all I said was you can close the gap..meaning..instead of being a lap down...work on other aspects of racing other then motor & get with in a tenth or two...I never said I would win with lrp x12...but I sure will be competitive with it

where you race at??!!...maybe ill come visit
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:42 PM   #172
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Since the current rules are a little more flexible than the old days for brushed motor, manufactures are releasing incrementally better motors over time to maximize profit. And it's all driven by racer's need to go faster. Think of it like computer chips from Intel. Over the years they always knew exactly how to make a faster chip but they artificially pace the release of newer faster products to get maximum profit over a longer period of time.
That only works if there's either collusion amongst the manufacturers, or a monopoly. Intel gets away with it because AMD hasn't been competitive in a while (Ryzen may change that). But with motors, there are plenty of manufacturers. It only takes one manufacturer to buck the trend and throw everything at a hot motor, then all the others have to do the same. Nobody intentionally holds back when they're behind.
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:54 PM   #173
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That only works if there's either collusion amongst the manufacturers, or a monopoly. Intel gets away with it because AMD hasn't been competitive in a while (Ryzen may change that). But with motors, there are plenty of manufacturers. It only takes one manufacturer to buck the trend and throw everything at a hot motor, then all the others have to do the same. Nobody intentionally holds back when they're behind.
I guess the cpu is a little bit extreme but from what I see there is a lot of it going on. Thing about motors is it is easy to make and easy to copy as well. No body wants to retool, redesign, throw in R&D money unless someone wants to stir the pot. Once someone did it is easy to just copy them. Hence what we see now, one guy makes a innovation and everyone starts to copy the idea.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:27 PM   #174
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DesertRat, I think you clearly misunderstood starxx. I met him Nashville at the USVTA Southern Nats about 5yrs ago and have raced with him there every year since. He's a good dude and a very helpful guy to race against. Being a pure asphalt guy, I for truly appreciated his help on the carpet.

As for your other points, companies and "motor tuners" have been pulling out the cream of the crop for many, many years. Why shouldn't that be ok? Hell, that's been the norm. And as I said previously to Rick, $75, $100, $150 seems like alot but it's well worth the cost. No buying numerous motors, brush flavors, spring flavors, comm drops, comm truer, diamond bit, slave motor, and on and on. Seriously? And just because mod is faster, and traditionally used to cost more, can you please explain to me why a mod motor, both then and now, should be more expensive than a stock. It's simple, there is no reason why a mod motor should cost more. It's time people let the old days go....they're gone and motor prices will not go down just because some think they should. The industry has set the price and the demand supports where they have it.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:40 PM   #175
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I value my ppl...I help my ppl..I coach my ppl..any track I go to is my home track...I work very hard on setup..driving & I do a lot of research & testing...all I said was you can close the gap..meaning..instead of being a lap down...work on other aspects of racing other then motor & get with in a tenth or two...I never said I would win with lrp x12...but I sure will be competitive with it

where you race at??!!...maybe ill come visit
I dont know what caliber of racer runs at your LHS or what kind of consistency you run or whether it matters at your local level, but you stated that your winning with a maybe 16 month old Motiv motor in a new car racing USGT at the local level is an example of not needing the newer motors that we race against, we just need to try harder like you. I have little doubt that if you are a win-at-will racer against your local competition that you could be competitive against your LHS with a crappy motor, but how many tenths do you have to lose per lap to go from the A main to the B main at a bigger event that will have 40-50 entries per class? Using the 2014 IIC as an example, loss of only 0.2 seconds per lap will often move you from from TQ to tenth qualifier. I've gained that amount of time on track with a motor swap, going from a perfectly good but well used Trinity D3 that I had since the days of boost, and I had been running consistently since my D3.5 got banned, to a brand new Team Powers. It actually was a little shocking. I had been cruising around with the good old "Oh I don't need a new motor, I can do just fine with this one" thought process but when I felt the rip it was clear instantly that this was a faster car with much less power fade. I had gotten good at wringing the snot out of a slow motor and making it look fast. I regret not buying a new motor sooner.

Also, why would you not run your brand new Motiv MC2 that you praised so heavily in the Motiv thread with the words "it felt like I was cheating...lol"?

You would be more than welcome to come race at my LHS, but it's long closed. The closest onroad RC is asphalt 125 miles from me, and I don't race there. About five times a year myself and a few dedicated racers cannonball run out to California to race on a rug. I will be racing at the Mile High Indoor Champs this year, and yes, I did order a new motor and battery for 17.5. My first new motor in over two years.

At the end of the day, dude, I don't know what your deal is going into this thread and telling people who don't like throwing perfectly good motors in the junk pile because they cant keep up with new hardware that they're just not trying hard enough. Power matters and it is very much possible to lose because the other guy drove away from you with a better but very much legal motor setup. There needs to be less of that in RC, and I think that's the point of this thread.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:44 PM   #176
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And as I said previously to Rick, $75, $100, $150 seems like alot but it's well worth the cost. No buying numerous motors
The argument being made is that people are still buying numerous motors as they're allegedly being obsoleted within 6 months to a year. If that's true, then $100+ is too expensive at that frequency.

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And just because mod is faster, and traditionally used to cost more, can you please explain to me why a mod motor, both then and now, should be more expensive than a stock.
Nobody is arguing that mod should be more expensive than stock. They're arguing that stock shouldn't be more expensive than mod.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:52 PM   #177
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Where are you getting that from? I believe Darkside for example and starxx too have stated their previous version motors are working more than fine. So what is your 2nd point? Your response makes no sense. Again, with tuners selling motors that have way more touch labor involved in matching components, tweaking, and some sending dyno sheets too, how in the world do you not expect that to cost more?
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:05 PM   #178
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Where are you getting that from? I believe Darkside for example and starxx too have stated their previous version motors are working more than fine. So what is your 2nd point? Your response makes no sense. Again, with tuners selling motors that have way more touch labor involved in matching components, tweaking, and some sending dyno sheets too, how in the world do you not expect that to cost more?
No darkside never said he was happy with his current motor he was saying he don't have a choice but to find more speed in setup cause for him (reedy driver ) don't have a option for a better motor ... He has admitted many times to us locals the TSR and motiv are unreal compared to his ea built reedy motor ( went thru several to find best parts to build 1 good old motor ) he is still .3 a lap off pace in usgt locally from those of us that have found new HP...
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:11 PM   #179
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I think guys have forgotten over time how expensive brushed motors were. 30 a piece, new one once a month because we cut the comm to nothing from the start and bushings were gone fairly quick. 10-15 a week in 767's or whatever brush you used. Most broke a bit once a year from hitting the stacks so theres 70.. 500 a year easy but nobody complained because it was 20 here and 20 there. Now its 125 or so at a time but only twice a year. Half the money it used to be, no 400 comm lathe, no maintenance and all guys do is bitch. This is whats wrong with the hobby and why so many guys quit... sucks going to the track and listening to a group of racers sit and complain about the same thing your wife was bitchin about when you left the house.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:12 PM   #180
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My mistake, I was referring to his VTA motor and not stock. Again, my mistake Mr Lyons lol. All good.
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