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Old 12-13-2016, 06:05 AM   #1
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Default Spec racing ....

Ok so after attending stock wars at my home track and being lucky to have a large group of the top names in the country there with the tightest qualifying seen in a long time I would like to hear some opinions on racing

Let it all hang out .... Vent if you want ... Feel free .. Keep it respectful as possible

My opinion is this
Spec racing needs to be made exactly what it's named ... Spec
I believe it starts with the tires ( as race usually dictates ) motor and then battery

The big problem I see is the motors I think there should be locked timing motors with specific wire parameters ( winding technique) etc. resistence numbers to really level the field
I mean. The nats in 2015 resistence was in the 21.0-20.9 area. Now it's 18. Range or even lower.

Without mentioning names I saw plenty of top level guys sweating to get the " motor of the month " to compete at the level necessary

I even heard a guy who hasn't paid for a motor in 6 years say he spent 450.00 on three motors for the race

I mean there's a problem ... At least in my opinion

I'm totally in for a more spec motor ...

An example. I ran Usgt 21.5 Qualified p2....I had the motor of the month in it
It was as fast as the field in non pro tc. As well as would have made bottom of b main in pro . Pretty crazy imo

Also. Some of the battery charging procedures are getting crazy. But. That's probably another thread in itself

I see some tracks taking advantage of handout motors for races. I hope to see companies working more with tracks/ hobby to make this happen more


Opinions. Let's hear them. All this said stock wars was a amazing event
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:15 AM   #2
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I love spec classes.... But spec is and probably will always be the death of Rc racing. No one likes to admit it, but "stock" isn't stock. Mod is closer to stock than stock will ever be. If you want limits take off the fan. Then no matter what motor of the month is released, you can only push it so hard before it melts.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:36 AM   #3
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Wow, I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but....

Phil I 100% agree with you.

I've been preaching this for years. The problem with spec is as soon as someone figures out how to get that tiny little more out of the motor they're going to dominate the class until someone else figures out how to get more than the first guy. That takes time and money, and for many people those things are in short supply. In my case they're practically nonexistent.

Anyone can come up with a set of specs. The problem is there's always someone pushing the limits of those specs. And trying to tell these people that's not the spirit of the class is usually met with hostility. Another problem is enforcement. What do you do with someone who is just outside one measurement. And them what do you do when they scream "I'm never racing here again!"

The number of threads like this that have been started is encouraging, because racers are finally beginning to realize there are some real issues we need to face. The only way to solve them is to bring them out and discuss them, and hope racers understand the spirit of the rules is more important than the letter of the rules.

I wish I could have made stock wars. Personal issues prevented me from coming.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:43 AM   #4
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You can't really do locked timing motors without mandating a specific motor. Different motors have different power bands. The downside to picking a spec motor is that there's risk of depending on a single supplier - there may be supply shortages or they may discontinue it eventually, or even go bankrupt (see Novak). If you change the spec motor too frequently, people complain that their perfectly fine motor is now redundant and they have to get another. This is why handout motors are popular for spec racing.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:56 AM   #5
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Most of the motor problems would go away if roar made a minimum IR rule for every spec wind like they did for 25.5.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anr211 View Post
Most of the motor problems would go away if roar made a minimum IR rule for every spec wind like they did for 25.5.
Amen.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:21 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anr211 View Post
Most of the motor problems would go away if roar made a minimum IR rule for every spec wind like they did for 25.5.
I can already think of six ways of cheating that rule.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:33 AM   #8
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I can already think of six ways of cheating that rule.
What's your 6 ideas so they can be addressed and prevented
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:50 AM   #9
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I have already proposed to ROAR that the rules should require the timing of the motor to remain fixed at all times that the motor is operating. This would prevent the inclusion of dynamic timing boost being done internally to the motor (via a small microprocessor or something similar).

That's just one (but probably the best!) way to do an end-run around the rules are they are now written.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:55 AM   #10
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Be honest, you do not want to have people taking the motors at home because they will be opened, shimmed, trimmed, rewinded, resoldered, shaved en anything else from the box of tricks.

I know people do not like to run sensorless but running it will outrule a lot of cheats. A non programable stock ESC is also a trick. Team Orion has a brushless motor with a build in ESC, could be the perfect handout system.
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
You can't really do locked timing motors without mandating a specific motor. Different motors have different power bands. The downside to picking a spec motor is that there's risk of depending on a single supplier - there may be supply shortages or they may discontinue it eventually, or even go bankrupt (see Novak). If you change the spec motor too frequently, people complain that their perfectly fine motor is now redundant and they have to get another. This is why handout motors are popular for spec racing.
I think if they do is smartly, they could have a spec motor for each event ala' a handout motor, just the same with tires etc. You could alternate brands, this way, you are not stuck with worrying about shortages, and the suppliers will be given a heads up etc. Not to mention they could be at the track to lend support.

Years ago with the Tamiya Eurocup, it got ridiculous. We had guys running optical sensors hidden in the front arms and rear bulkhead on the F1 cars. I canít remember the ESC's that allowed for traction control (LRP AMS, Helbing or GM). Then they got ingenious and started to hide other rotors in the "Stock" silver 540 Mabuchi, and Zapping the motors, Keeping them in a cooler until run time, Re-sleaving batteries shrink wrap, etc., etc.

As long as people are held accountable, racing spec should mean you agree to scrutineering as in the past, disassemble motor, check battery, tires, and then if no infraction is found all is well. If an infraction is found, and the person admits it, DQ them, and give them a warning. If they get offensive, then ban them from the class for a year, cheaters should not be tolerated, if they are then it makes it "ok" for others too as well, and before you know it, its no longer truly spec.
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:19 AM   #12
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You people do realize that this issue comes up over and over and over. There have been spec classes (the Associated Apex comes to mind), spec motors (Novak) spec tires, spec this, spec that and the class dies a quick death every single time. The true key to winning in R/C racing is to NOT race R/C cars. My Ducati motorcycle entire clutch cost less than a new chassis that comes with NOTHING but the chassis and that seems wrong.
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:24 AM   #13
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People want the illusion of a fair shot at winning, but the hard truth is that no matter what rules you put in place, people will find a way to get an edge within the bounds of the rules. Just deal with it people.
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:35 AM   #14
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the only way is to go back the way it was 20 years ago. only have mod TC
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
What's your 6 ideas so they can be addressed and prevented
No. What's the fun in that?

But I can tell you how to prevent them.
  • Winners Weight
  • Cheap Claim Rules
  • Automatic Claim of Winning motor
  • Handout Motors
  • Motor Dyno testing
  • Testing motor inductance at a frequency, instead of just checking resistance.
  • A ~spec motor~ that's of reasonable price.

I really like winners weight, as that more or less negates shovelfulls of money. Sadly, it takes some time to track.

Cheap claim rules, encourage claiming. And that discourages finding unicorn motors.

Automatic Claiming of the winning motor, builds in the claim rule, which is rarely used. This ensures that it happens at least some of the time.

Handout motors provides a random chance on your motor. I can't say i'm hugely a fan of this, because it's possible to abuse, and hurt motors.

Tamiya dynos motors. If you want an even field, handout, or branded spec motors should all be dynoed before their sold, and checked randomly, during a race season. This will prevent special sauce motors.

IR is "something that's easy to test". Our motors are inductors at frequency. You can do things to make resistance high when static, and drop off at frequency. So the testing should be done at some frequency to match the running conditions.

Having a reasonably priced spec motor, will reduce the push to allow people to run "whatever motor" that's "in spec".

Any one of those measures would probably do the job. I really like rewards weight.

And ask what you really want, do you want a class of racing? Or do you want fixed price racing? In almost all classes of racing, there are places where you can shovel money and find "some speed". Are we going to regulate the person who can have seven cars, with slightly different setups? How about the person who can have 12 sets of shocks, each built with different shock oil.

I've watched a fair number of races now, and there's lots of speed left on r/c car tracks.
Be the one who doesn't need to setup the suspension to throw away traction.
Be the one who's not sliding the car in corners.
Be the one who doesn't wiggle on straights.

I don't think we've found the fastest drivers yet.
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