Spec racing ....
12-13-2016, 03:10 PM
#33
I know it won't be a popular answer, but the answer really lies in making the cars traction limited instead of power limited. Imagine if USVTA or F1 was 13.5 instead of 25.5. Motor wars would be non-existent. That's too much power for those cars & tires to put down. So you'd have to dial the throttle EPA back to make the cars get around the track cleanly. EVERY car would have enough power to spin the tires.
So then it would be up to the driver skill.
Newbies? They don't HAVE to put in a 13.5 (or whatever), they can put in whatever they can handle. As their skill improves, then add power.
We tried a class locally called 'Rat Rods'. Only one rule: you had to use the USVTA tires. Any motor, battery, esc, body, whatever you wanted. The tires became the limiting factor. Pretty much anything more than a 21.5 was too much power. We had guys out there with 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, 21.5, 25.5 motors. All were competitive on our smallish indoor carpet track. You could actually FEEL the tires starting to melt. lol... Cheap racing too. Tech was easy. "got the USVTA tires? Yep? Good."
Just a thought...
So then it would be up to the driver skill.
Newbies? They don't HAVE to put in a 13.5 (or whatever), they can put in whatever they can handle. As their skill improves, then add power.
We tried a class locally called 'Rat Rods'. Only one rule: you had to use the USVTA tires. Any motor, battery, esc, body, whatever you wanted. The tires became the limiting factor. Pretty much anything more than a 21.5 was too much power. We had guys out there with 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, 21.5, 25.5 motors. All were competitive on our smallish indoor carpet track. You could actually FEEL the tires starting to melt. lol... Cheap racing too. Tech was easy. "got the USVTA tires? Yep? Good."
Just a thought...
What Mark says!
The reason off road is more popular is because there are less restrictions and more natural limitations such as grip and track layout.
Most places in Offroad may run a Pro and a Sportsman class and for the lunatics that want to spend twice the amount to go slower a 17.5 class.
The reason it works is traction limits and driver skill come into play more than pure horsepower.
I can run a cheapo motor and remain competitive all season in off road.
Pro and sportsman classes can work in onroad as well.
The sandbaggers in sportsman just need to be bumped to Pro once they
Start hitting a target time and lap count.
Simple rules - tires, bodies, 2s, 1s, 4wd TC, 1/12 pan, 1/10 Pan, F-1, you can keep popular classes like USGT and VTA too but a sanity limit on motor resistance may be the key as previously mentioned for USGT.
If you think about it the only real Spec that can be enforced is track layout. Everything else there is is a guaranteed cheat.
Darn humans are crafty...
12-13-2016, 03:19 PM
#34
I would spec (handout) 2100maH batteries. Motor/esc open. Battery capacity will limit the speed and cost same as a set of tires.
12-13-2016, 03:49 PM
#35
Some of the best racing I ever had was when our club couldn't get the usual hall in the event centre, we ended up racing with a grip level like driving on ice. You could flick spin your TC with Silver can motor and NiCD battery. You actually had to drive and manage your car, be gentle on the throttle, slow down to stay online and had long braking zones. Cars were squirming around under braking. The racing was epic. Then I also raced modified, 5 cell 4.5 on the same surface. Crawling around the infield barely touching the throttle, then nailing it on the back straight, before hitting the brakes halfway not to overcook the first corner. Maybe reducing traction this much is going a little too far though
12-13-2016, 04:11 PM
#36
Some of the best racing I ever had was when our club couldn't get the usual hall in the event centre, we ended up racing with a grip level like driving on ice. You could flick spin your TC with Silver can motor and NiCD battery. You actually had to drive and manage your car, be gentle on the throttle, slow down to stay online and had long braking zones. Cars were squirming around under braking. The racing was epic. Then I also raced modified, 5 cell 4.5 on the same surface. Crawling around the infield barely touching the throttle, then nailing it on the back straight, before hitting the brakes halfway not to overcook the first corner. Maybe reducing traction this much is going a little too far though
Even with USVTA cars, you have to be smooth on the throttle, braking now becomes a skill and traction rolling isn't even a thought. The cars slide all over the place, especially if you aren't smooth on the inputs. The racing is fantastic, with the cars going through the corners in 4-wheel drifts, side by side. Good stuff!
I actually prefer it over the uber grip of indoor carpet, where if you blink you're traction rolling. I don't have to glue tire sidewalls and can slide the car through the corners under power. Driver skill and smoothness is really rewarded.
In 17.5TC, motor wars are non-existent here as well. I actually won an A-main in 17.5TC this fall with my 21.5 USGT car because I could put the power down better. Any decent 17.5 motor will work, simply because it's hard to use all of the power.
In F1, even though I could use a 21.5 motor, I could do the same laptimes with a 25.5 motor simply because I could put the power down better. But I wouldn't advocate for limiting it to 25.5 motors, because ANY 21.5 is enough. Even the el cheapos.
More traction doesn't necessarily mean better racing. And it certainly is NOT guaranteed to be cheaper or easier. Limiting the cars' speed by limiting power is proving to be a mirage.
Mark
12-13-2016, 07:41 PM
#38
I actually don't mind stock racing the way it is now. And I am particularly happy about VTA opening up motor rules to ROAR certified because I hated using the Novak motors.
Handout motors is an okay idea but its not the end all. There are still variations from one motor to another no matter who makes them, so there will always be a faster motor. I have seen off the shelf motors run right along side a certified motor of the same brand/model. I have also seen guys running the best of the best still not win against a guy running cheap off the shelf products.
I also think that limiting traction will also be detrimental to participation. I just went to the track the other day to do some testing and set up. My 17.5 car was so bad I didnt even want to drive it. I made changes, it got a little better but had that been a race night I would have just run my VTA and my 12th scale and would not have touched the TC. I wanted to run USGT really bad because I really liked the idea of the class. A little slower, scale looking bodies. But the USGT tires absolutely SUCK. The foams are terrible. I will not run the class. I feel as though I would only get one or two race nights out of a set of tires/foams. 2 out of 4 of my USGT tires have the foams all bunched up on one side of the tire. They were bought premounted.
I don't know the answers, but I will say if the class bothers you that much then run modified. All of my favorite classes are spec classes. I dont cry about being beat by special hand built motors. If I didnt want to be outmotored I would run a class where I can just motor up.
Handout motors is an okay idea but its not the end all. There are still variations from one motor to another no matter who makes them, so there will always be a faster motor. I have seen off the shelf motors run right along side a certified motor of the same brand/model. I have also seen guys running the best of the best still not win against a guy running cheap off the shelf products.
I also think that limiting traction will also be detrimental to participation. I just went to the track the other day to do some testing and set up. My 17.5 car was so bad I didnt even want to drive it. I made changes, it got a little better but had that been a race night I would have just run my VTA and my 12th scale and would not have touched the TC. I wanted to run USGT really bad because I really liked the idea of the class. A little slower, scale looking bodies. But the USGT tires absolutely SUCK. The foams are terrible. I will not run the class. I feel as though I would only get one or two race nights out of a set of tires/foams. 2 out of 4 of my USGT tires have the foams all bunched up on one side of the tire. They were bought premounted.
I don't know the answers, but I will say if the class bothers you that much then run modified. All of my favorite classes are spec classes. I dont cry about being beat by special hand built motors. If I didnt want to be outmotored I would run a class where I can just motor up.
12-13-2016, 07:56 PM
#40
I enjoy the concept and approve of 'spec class' racing, but the only true 'spec class' where all of the equipment is equal and money doesn't matter is in video games.
Spec tires are great, but tire prep and age of the tire makes them unequal. Spec motors are great, but tuning makes them unequal. Spec chassis are basically non-existent but even in classes like Tamiya Mini or the Schumacher Supastox tuning and often invisible mods or even just skill of assembler make the chassis unequal.
The more rules you add the less clear those rules become.
I also believe that in the seemingly endless quest to make everything "spec" about racing we are starting to punish effort, restrict innovators, and reward cheaters. It may not be entirely intuitive but the SLOWER that the cars are and the more rules placed on them to keep them that way the more cheating pays dividends. Nobody ever cheats in Mod, because there would be no point.
I think that most supporters of making everything about racing "spec" do so because they want to make racing more accessible, driver skill more important, and reduce costs. On the surface these are noble efforts, but they never really seem to get closer to this goal so after a while you begin to wonder what they actually achieved? Driver skill is mostly talent and that cant really be taught. Tuning is a combination of good information and the scientific method. And not matter how many rules or regulations, you can still spend exactly as much on racing as you want and more money spent and more time spent may very well mean going faster.
Money. A nice touchy subject in RC racing, but having raced on the shoestring budget of a broke student and with all of the disposable income of a single guy with a job, I realized that these days I chalk up "money spent" under the "effort" category. If you were tied for TQ but in round 2 the other guy bolts up a $200 super-sweet Motiv motor tuned by Paul Lemieux himself and it makes him 3 seconds per race faster, well he didn't do anything illegal so that means he WON. If someone goes out and buys the new XRAY touring car, slaps the Reedy Race champions setup on it, and goes 2-3 seconds per race faster this his old ride, good for him. Or if he went and bought a new setup station and corner scales to set his car up for better weight transfer, or he took the time and money to get to the track to practice the layout and get his setup closer to ideal, all of these are money and effort.
It may sound mean but if you're slow, there is usually good reason beyond not having the Magic Motor and Battery. You lack one or more of the Holy Racing Trinity of TALENT, KNOWLEDGE, and EFFORT. So start trying to make yourself faster rather than spending so much time slowing the other guy down with more rules.
Spec tires are great, but tire prep and age of the tire makes them unequal. Spec motors are great, but tuning makes them unequal. Spec chassis are basically non-existent but even in classes like Tamiya Mini or the Schumacher Supastox tuning and often invisible mods or even just skill of assembler make the chassis unequal.
The more rules you add the less clear those rules become.
I also believe that in the seemingly endless quest to make everything "spec" about racing we are starting to punish effort, restrict innovators, and reward cheaters. It may not be entirely intuitive but the SLOWER that the cars are and the more rules placed on them to keep them that way the more cheating pays dividends. Nobody ever cheats in Mod, because there would be no point.
I think that most supporters of making everything about racing "spec" do so because they want to make racing more accessible, driver skill more important, and reduce costs. On the surface these are noble efforts, but they never really seem to get closer to this goal so after a while you begin to wonder what they actually achieved? Driver skill is mostly talent and that cant really be taught. Tuning is a combination of good information and the scientific method. And not matter how many rules or regulations, you can still spend exactly as much on racing as you want and more money spent and more time spent may very well mean going faster.
Money. A nice touchy subject in RC racing, but having raced on the shoestring budget of a broke student and with all of the disposable income of a single guy with a job, I realized that these days I chalk up "money spent" under the "effort" category. If you were tied for TQ but in round 2 the other guy bolts up a $200 super-sweet Motiv motor tuned by Paul Lemieux himself and it makes him 3 seconds per race faster, well he didn't do anything illegal so that means he WON. If someone goes out and buys the new XRAY touring car, slaps the Reedy Race champions setup on it, and goes 2-3 seconds per race faster this his old ride, good for him. Or if he went and bought a new setup station and corner scales to set his car up for better weight transfer, or he took the time and money to get to the track to practice the layout and get his setup closer to ideal, all of these are money and effort.
It may sound mean but if you're slow, there is usually good reason beyond not having the Magic Motor and Battery. You lack one or more of the Holy Racing Trinity of TALENT, KNOWLEDGE, and EFFORT. So start trying to make yourself faster rather than spending so much time slowing the other guy down with more rules.
And you can count money as effort, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in that. What I see as wrong however is to spend money on five motors and seven speedies a race and burn each and every one of them to get a win. If that tickles your ego, go forth my son, and may the force be with you.
By the way, you forgot the holy trinity has four components. You left out the most important: luck. Life is a lottery. Be lucky.
12-13-2016, 08:29 PM
#42
I actually don't mind stock racing the way it is now. And I am particularly happy about VTA opening up motor rules to ROAR certified because I hated using the Novak motors.
Handout motors is an okay idea but its not the end all. There are still variations from one motor to another no matter who makes them, so there will always be a faster motor. I have seen off the shelf motors run right along side a certified motor of the same brand/model. I have also seen guys running the best of the best still not win against a guy running cheap off the shelf products.
I also think that limiting traction will also be detrimental to participation. I just went to the track the other day to do some testing and set up. My 17.5 car was so bad I didnt even want to drive it. I made changes, it got a little better but had that been a race night I would have just run my VTA and my 12th scale and would not have touched the TC. I wanted to run USGT really bad because I really liked the idea of the class. A little slower, scale looking bodies. But the USGT tires absolutely SUCK. The foams are terrible. I will not run the class. I feel as though I would only get one or two race nights out of a set of tires/foams. 2 out of 4 of my USGT tires have the foams all bunched up on one side of the tire. They were bought premounted.
I don't know the answers, but I will say if the class bothers you that much then run modified. All of my favorite classes are spec classes. I dont cry about being beat by special hand built motors. If I didnt want to be outmotored I would run a class where I can just motor up.
Handout motors is an okay idea but its not the end all. There are still variations from one motor to another no matter who makes them, so there will always be a faster motor. I have seen off the shelf motors run right along side a certified motor of the same brand/model. I have also seen guys running the best of the best still not win against a guy running cheap off the shelf products.
I also think that limiting traction will also be detrimental to participation. I just went to the track the other day to do some testing and set up. My 17.5 car was so bad I didnt even want to drive it. I made changes, it got a little better but had that been a race night I would have just run my VTA and my 12th scale and would not have touched the TC. I wanted to run USGT really bad because I really liked the idea of the class. A little slower, scale looking bodies. But the USGT tires absolutely SUCK. The foams are terrible. I will not run the class. I feel as though I would only get one or two race nights out of a set of tires/foams. 2 out of 4 of my USGT tires have the foams all bunched up on one side of the tire. They were bought premounted.
I don't know the answers, but I will say if the class bothers you that much then run modified. All of my favorite classes are spec classes. I dont cry about being beat by special hand built motors. If I didnt want to be outmotored I would run a class where I can just motor up.
As for the gt tires they could be better but they are mostly warn from bad setups ... It took me a while to get them to preform without failing but we have had over 2hrs of actual race time on 2 sets of tires and only 1 of the 8 are getting soft . But I will say they do seem to last longer on our AMX cars more so then the xray cars . But that's a setup thing I'm sure .
12-13-2016, 08:36 PM
#43
In the beginning of your rant ,opinion you hit on something . The differences between the exact same run of motors. Yes there are differences but just like you said most time it doesn't matter . If your not one of the 15 drivers up front you wouldn't be able to get the benefit of it anyways . It's more about piece of mind and confidence... I've played this game many time but just recently figured it out . Lol a 150 motor of brand X isn't any faster than the $95 twice gone thru brand X motor 26 of 27 laps... Driver has way too any flaws to make use of the extra 14w .
As for the gt tires they could be better but they are mostly warn from bad setups ... It took me a while to get them to preform without failing but we have had over 2hrs of actual race time on 2 sets of tires and only 1 of the 8 are getting soft . But I will say they do seem to last longer on our AMX cars more so then the xray cars . But that's a setup thing I'm sure .
As for the gt tires they could be better but they are mostly warn from bad setups ... It took me a while to get them to preform without failing but we have had over 2hrs of actual race time on 2 sets of tires and only 1 of the 8 are getting soft . But I will say they do seem to last longer on our AMX cars more so then the xray cars . But that's a setup thing I'm sure .
The tires wasn't a wear issue. The foams inside the tires just fell apart and bunched up to one side of the tire. I can get traction out of a tire, I cant make foam stay together. If they allowed or used a closed cell foam then I would run the class.
12-13-2016, 08:56 PM
#44
That is part of the reason to just leave it alone. Although I have been in this hobby for 30 years, I have only been racing 3 or so. But I have never seen any spec class suffer from low turnout. So obviously it is kind of working. There are just a bunch of people complaining about it. The same people that don't run it. Maybe they would if it was "fixed". But what would they complain about then?
The tires wasn't a wear issue. The foams inside the tires just fell apart and bunched up to one side of the tire. I can get traction out of a tire, I cant make foam stay together. If they allowed or used a closed cell foam then I would run the class.
The tires wasn't a wear issue. The foams inside the tires just fell apart and bunched up to one side of the tire. I can get traction out of a tire, I cant make foam stay together. If they allowed or used a closed cell foam then I would run the class.
Then I ran them for 3 club race days (3 6min heats + 6min main) (+ several test runs of 2-3min each)
Then Cleveland champs I ran the same set all weekend and finished 11th (so 5 runs @ 5min each + 10 2min sessions of practice ) my front left is now starting to get soft .
12-13-2016, 09:12 PM
#45