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Old 12-23-2016, 09:58 AM   #76
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Okay, I have a question.

I was just on facebook. In my timeline is an ad from A-Main Hobbies. Trinity Gold Certified 2 17.5 motor. $174.99 If you don't need a motor like this, why are they selling it?

I suppose the better question is how long are going to allow this?
It has nothing to do with need. It has everything to do with pricing a product to what the market is willing to pay. We've gotten to where $100 motors are the norm and even more for motors that have "special" attention. Now they are ramping it up to see if the new pricing will fly. Nobody is forced to buy these, especially people that can't go two consecutive laps without hitting a board. The guys that can get it done are likely getting these for free or highly discounted anyway. I think the price is stupid. I also have enough self control to not buy one and later cry victim. Not saying you are doing that but it is a recurring theme around here. Frankly it is embarrassing to watch grown men freely admit that they they have so little control of their finances they have to rely on RC companies or a sanctioning body like ROAR to look out for them. Stop buying the stuff and companies will adjust pricing.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:02 AM   #77
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Unfortunately I race in an area where there are more than plenty of people who have no problem maxing out their credit cards getting the latest and greatest stuff. I agree that $175 is a ridiculous price for a 17.5 motor, but you know that someone just ordered 2. I do take heart in the fact that these guys still aren't on the top of the qualifying sheets. But as a low budget, low skill racer, it's stuff like this that takes the fun out of it. I thought 17.5 was supposed to be a spec class. I guess it depends on your interpretation of the specs.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:16 AM   #78
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Unfortunately I race in an area where there are more than plenty of people who have no problem maxing out their credit cards getting the latest and greatest stuff. I agree that $175 is a ridiculous price for a 17.5 motor, but you know that someone just ordered 2. I do take heart in the fact that these guys still aren't on the top of the qualifying sheets. But as a low budget, low skill racer, it's stuff like this that takes the fun out of it. I thought 17.5 was supposed to be a spec class. I guess it depends on your interpretation of the specs.
I agree the certified stuff has got out of control with the pricing. Kinda like people buying "red dot" mabuchi's in "spec" "box stock" classes in the past. How many "certified" 3.5's are out there? If we go to 6.5 mod, you will start to see 6.5's certified. Happens to all "spec" racing, unfortunately.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:30 AM   #79
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Again an example that spec racing can only be done affordable if the choice of motor is listed by the organisation based on price and ofcorse equal performance.
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Old 12-23-2016, 02:20 PM   #80
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When you start complaining about someone buying or attempt to buy their way to victory circle- good luck. This subject has been around for years! When someone can take a Hobby King 1/10th pan car (cheap) and some some modifications to it and make into a competitive racer. My good friend did that and has done that for years. He will take something and make it competitive.
As for motors he's gotting those cheap Hobby King motors and has been competitive. Yes we've battled for years we have both won and lost to each other. You can spend a fortune and still not be in the ball park.
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Old 12-23-2016, 02:44 PM   #81
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I agree the certified stuff has got out of control with the pricing. Kinda like people buying "red dot" mabuchi's in "spec" "box stock" classes in the past. How many "certified" 3.5's are out there? If we go to 6.5 mod, you will start to see 6.5's certified. Happens to all "spec" racing, unfortunately.
Well, those red dot Mabuchi's were insane fast.

But here's the thing with the 6.5 spec for 12th scale. That motor is going to be fast enough that you're going to have to drive the car. A certified motor isn't going to help as much. Things like braking and throttle control will come into play.

My theory is the slower the motor, the more a slight difference in motors will show up on the track. If you have a motor slow enough that you only come off the throttle once a lap the more the motor comes into play. That's why I don't like the idea of making 21.5 the new stock. It won't be long before you see $175 21.5 motors.
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Old 12-23-2016, 02:45 PM   #82
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When you start complaining about someone buying or attempt to buy their way to victory circle- good luck. This subject has been around for years! When someone can take a Hobby King 1/10th pan car (cheap) and some some modifications to it and make into a competitive racer. My good friend did that and has done that for years. He will take something and make it competitive.
As for motors he's gotting those cheap Hobby King motors and has been competitive. Yes we've battled for years we have both won and lost to each other. You can spend a fortune and still not be in the ball park.
Depends on the competition.
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Old 12-23-2016, 03:26 PM   #83
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Being competitive at a club level and being competitive at a national level are nowhere close to the same thing. Talent can carry anything at your local track but lack of equipment and a lot of talent will get you a fine 7th in the D main plaque at snowbirds lol.
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Old 12-23-2016, 03:45 PM   #84
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Again an example that spec racing can only be done affordable if the choice of motor is listed by the organisation based on price and ofcorse equal performance.
Oh yes that last but very important phrase "of ... equal performance". Someone mentioned Street Spec. IMO a good idea gone astray. Cheap closed end bell motors so varied in performance that you had to buy several (really many) to find one that was competitive and the tuning was so brutal that the good one didn't last long. Saved a lot of money when we convinced the oval gods to go with quality rebuildable 19T mod motors -
only had to buy one of those and occasionally an armature. Unfortunately somewhere along the line we must have had a wire shortage because one OEM was found to be making ARMs with less that the required 19 turns of wire MHRIH

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Old 12-23-2016, 04:21 PM   #85
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By definition, resistance is independent of frequency. It does not increase or decrease at different frequencies. That would be called "skin effect", which is a constriction of the cross-sectional area that conducts effectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

There are ways of decreasing skin effect, but none that are within the motor rules.
Thanks Howard; that is pretty much the way I think too. However, I'd still like to hear from Nerobro as to what his idea is. Nerobro - you out there?
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:02 PM   #86
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But here's the thing with the 6.5 spec for 12th scale. That motor is going to be fast enough that you're going to have to drive the car. A certified motor isn't going to help as much. Things like braking and throttle control will come into play.

My theory is the slower the motor, the more a slight difference in motors will show up on the track. If you have a motor slow enough that you only come off the throttle once a lap the more the motor comes into play. That's why I don't like the idea of making 21.5 the new stock. It won't be long before you see $175 21.5 motors.
This, right there. Happiest class I've run was a WGT variant here in the UK, with 10.5T motors and open ESC ("boosted"). A good driver could just dump some old motor in there, with some average batteries, and make it into the A final at national races (not huge, but 4-5 heats).

It sounds fast, but in a 1/10 pan car, it's quite driveable, while still requiring that last bit of throttle control to make it properly fast.
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:12 PM   #87
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Your close.. if a mod motor is 80, a good 17.5 is 175, then a good 21.5 will be 225.. most guys fail to understand that the more rules there are and the tighter those rules are then the more it costs. These rules and the cost factor are the reasons the mod guys flip out anytime someone tries to change the rules for modified classes.. its the cost they hate, not a speed issue.
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:31 PM   #88
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Your close.. if a mod motor is 80, a good 17.5 is 175, then a good 21.5 will be 225.. most guys fail to understand that the more rules there are and the tighter those rules are then the more it costs. These rules and the cost factor are the reasons the mod guys flip out anytime someone tries to change the rules for modified classes.. its the cost they hate, not a speed issue.
Not sure I agree with your analysis as you have not normalized for quality. Good competition mod motors, for example, are not bought; they are hand made from the best of the best parts and usually provided to the best of the best team drivers free of charge or at greatly reduced rates. Unless you have close OEM connections you will never see one of those motors in your car and will probably never beat one!. However, your point is well taken, if the ESC is controlled the motor does play a more important part in overall performance than it is does in mod. Many if not most mod drivers are heavily subsidized: they are good, they are good advertisement for the OEMs they represent and they need the best of the best to compete. So I don't agree that they are as cost aware as you make them out to be. Just based on my son's sponsorships (and he wasn't at the very top tier) cost was not a consideration for either motors or batteries - those were usually sent to him for each big race.

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Old 12-23-2016, 08:57 PM   #89
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This is interesting reading. So many false statements. Spec racing with closed endbells - If you know how to break them in your half way there.batteries for these spec racers are round cells. If you know what your looking for- some battery packs right off the shelf are way better that others.Been there and done that. I here from my friends they are twisting the arms. Wrong they are better drivers period!
Good equipment is good equipment. Practice and aet-up is the key to success. You can complain about the factory guys getting better equipment all day long. I've gotten stuff that anyone can beat me with. then I've gotten good stuff. Only difference now is I race every weekend . I'm always trying something to get better. I've forgotten more than I remember.
The companies you see listed below have helped me for years. I'm not the greatest driver but I promote there excellent products in many ways besides driving.
If you want to spend the money on the top pf the line products a company makes it does not mean you are going to be the best.Again it's practice- set-up. If your having a problem with set-up go ask the drivers with your equipment and ask them what they recommend. I have guys all the time ask me and I'll tell them. the same for my other buddy's that race with me.
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Old 12-24-2016, 02:02 PM   #90
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Personally I don't think there will every be a true equal performance spec class. Closest I've seen was a class in MD where everyone had the same chassis. (I don't recall if they spec'd the battery) The motors (closed endbell silver can) were bought in bulk by the hobby shop, dyno'd and only the 20 or so closest performance matched motors were used for the series. Motors were engraved with numbers and randomly assigned each week. After the race the drivers returned the motors to the hobby shop. After all that it didn't take long for drivers to know which motors were fast and which were not.

I think we are getting to point in this thread that we are making environment Vs heredity types of arguments. Great drivers with mediocre equipment aren't great (just ask the F1 teams a couple of years ago who didn't have the right power plant) and neither are mediocre drivers with great equipment - just ask some of the pests I embarrassed by letting them drive my son's oval car to shut them up- oh that's right they never came back). We can argue all day long whether its the environment (i.e., equipment) or heredity (i.e., skill/practice) but I'd rather wish you all a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.
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