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Old 12-13-2016, 08:59 AM   #16
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Hey Phil,

Good points I don't travel for electric too much but on a club level if 20- 30 numbered hand out motors were supplied to a spec class and every week they were turned in and reissued randomly the next week I would definitely be interested in running that class. Basically a sealed spec motor. Motors would have timing preset with a motor tool ( motolyzer ect. ) by the track and collected weekly and rotated so that no racer ran the same motor every week. Batteries are a different dilemma.. maybe a max milliamp of 6500 but charging should be dictated by track rules based on safety. Add in a spec tire ..usually dictated by the track and I think that's as close to spec racing as we can get. I think this would only work on a local level and requires a strong club or donation from a manufacture 20-30 motors would not be cheap. The cost could also be absorbed by a series where each racer pays a fixed fee, a six week series say $125 if you could cover motor purchase and 2 sets of tires. I'm definitely guilty of the motor of the month ..and I actively search for any performance edge I can get. Id support a spec class if it was set up fairly.
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:01 AM   #17
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They should do a spec motor you have to buy from the track at that event on club racing I think the best way to rule a spec class would be you have to buy the motor from the track race it that day then return the motor back to the track it will have a # on it when you buy so that's your # for the life of the motor if you don't give back your motor at the end of the day and you take it home for some reason. Then you need to buy a new motor no question asked. But you can't kill the price on the motor. It's been done before in englishtown N.J. And it worked very well.. I'm all for the spec side of racing. What was done at 360v2 was awesome to see them do everything to make sure they where in the specs of the rules GREAT JOB DONE BY ALL @ 360v2.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:03 AM   #18
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[...]

What do you do with someone who is just outside one measurement. And them what do you do when they scream "I'm never racing here again!"

[...]
Tell them good riddance.

In my experience these are the kind of people who kill RC racing by making it their sand box. You're way better off without such specimens. These are the people who yell at marshals, abuse people on the rostrum and so on. Instead of having decent people leaving the class because of such miscreants, I think it's best you eliminate the culprit, cut your losses and move on.

I am starting to understand to some extent why in the US RC is in a dilemma with most tracks I hear of being private. Owners don't like to send customers packing. Not sure what the solution is there, but I am willing to put money on it that they would get more business long term if they did not tolerate such behaviour. I have seen some testimony about such race tracks.

Over here, tracks are community facilities used by clubs. There is more incentive to keep the club alive hence people are more amenable to compromise.

But we do have our own problems not that dissimilar to what I see elsewhere.

There are solutions however, and I have mentioned in the other thread, ETS and Tamiya have provided good examples (along the same lines people are apparently already aware of).

Another idea is to have a "pro" night and an "everybody" night. We have club rules and national rules and they come into play on alternative week ends, so people can choose. There are still problems, but as someone already said, at least we are asking the questions.

Funny thing, I was pondering sensorless myself after reading the other thread. Seems to work a treat with the new crop of 1/8 motors, and you can't complain about speed!
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:33 AM   #19
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I enjoy the concept and approve of 'spec class' racing, but the only true 'spec class' where all of the equipment is equal and money doesn't matter is in video games.

Spec tires are great, but tire prep and age of the tire makes them unequal. Spec motors are great, but tuning makes them unequal. Spec chassis are basically non-existent but even in classes like Tamiya Mini or the Schumacher Supastox tuning and often invisible mods or even just skill of assembler make the chassis unequal.

The more rules you add the less clear those rules become.

I also believe that in the seemingly endless quest to make everything "spec" about racing we are starting to punish effort, restrict innovators, and reward cheaters. It may not be entirely intuitive but the SLOWER that the cars are and the more rules placed on them to keep them that way the more cheating pays dividends. Nobody ever cheats in Mod, because there would be no point.

I think that most supporters of making everything about racing "spec" do so because they want to make racing more accessible, driver skill more important, and reduce costs. On the surface these are noble efforts, but they never really seem to get closer to this goal so after a while you begin to wonder what they actually achieved? Driver skill is mostly talent and that cant really be taught. Tuning is a combination of good information and the scientific method. And not matter how many rules or regulations, you can still spend exactly as much on racing as you want and more money spent and more time spent may very well mean going faster.

Money. A nice touchy subject in RC racing, but having raced on the shoestring budget of a broke student and with all of the disposable income of a single guy with a job, I realized that these days I chalk up "money spent" under the "effort" category. If you were tied for TQ but in round 2 the other guy bolts up a $200 super-sweet Motiv motor tuned by Paul Lemieux himself and it makes him 3 seconds per race faster, well he didn't do anything illegal so that means he WON. If someone goes out and buys the new XRAY touring car, slaps the Reedy Race champions setup on it, and goes 2-3 seconds per race faster this his old ride, good for him. Or if he went and bought a new setup station and corner scales to set his car up for better weight transfer, or he took the time and money to get to the track to practice the layout and get his setup closer to ideal, all of these are money and effort.

It may sound mean but if you're slow, there is usually good reason beyond not having the Magic Motor and Battery. You lack one or more of the Holy Racing Trinity of TALENT, KNOWLEDGE, and EFFORT. So start trying to make yourself faster rather than spending so much time slowing the other guy down with more rules.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:48 AM   #20
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I just wish they would place a reasonable maximum price on "stock" motors. Obviously it can't be the $29 or $39 that it used to be for a 27 turn back in the day, but would some of this "motor of the month" lunacy stop if the maximum MSRP became $79.99 or something similar?
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:04 PM   #21
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I just wish they would place a reasonable maximum price on "stock" motors. Obviously it can't be the $29 or $39 that it used to be for a 27 turn back in the day, but would some of this "motor of the month" lunacy stop if the maximum MSRP became $79.99 or something similar?
$150 MSRP is a problem. Lowering it wouldn't make spec racing any different, but it would make it cheaper to do that same thing people are going to do already.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:28 PM   #22
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Obviously it can't be the $29 or $39 that it used to be for a 27 turn back in the day
Why not?

To be really silly, why aren't we using "something other" than 540 motors? It might be fun to run 3000kv 2204 motors... Those things can put out as many watts as a 25.5 turn motor is rated for.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:29 PM   #23
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After going to Japan attending the Tamiya World, I think I'm pretty impressed with the way they have done it. They have a set gearing lower limit and for my class it's 7.3 over all. Then they have a KV limit on the motor of 2400 and top three drivers from each heat were checked after each run. We did notice the KV is higher when the motor is warm but this really limits how far people push the line on performance. Just limit the KV of the motor and have a lower limit on gearing and you'll end up with a very level playing field in terms of speed down the straight. However implementing something like this takes lots of effort and man power at the tech area. That race is determined by driving skill and setup alone as far as I can tell. Even the chassis choice I think is rather irrelevant for that race, setup and driving is key.

However as far as I'm concerned, I never really see a huge difference in terms of power for most of the stock race I attend. People all use big brand motors and usually swap to a new one once or twice a year and newest motors on the market are all pretty close from what I can tell. I used three motors total last year for TCS and one is the motor I used for last year. If I'm slow I can usually find that speed back from setup and driving. If I'm slower than the other guy means I need to drive better or setup better.

I agree, with Desert Rat on this. Money spent is just single factor and the easiest out of all the major factors to fix, but the skill, practice and tuning are equally or more important. For me I love racing for racing itself and winning is just the icing on the cake. I rather have a great race and be dead last then winning by a mile. If people can't enjoy racing without the winning part then I don't see how most drivers can stay in the sport anyways. Yes pro driver's pay check depends on winning, but for us hobbiests, it's just good fun and bowling trophies at the end.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
I just wish they would place a reasonable maximum price on "stock" motors. Obviously it can't be the $29 or $39 that it used to be for a 27 turn back in the day, but would some of this "motor of the month" lunacy stop if the maximum MSRP became $79.99 or something similar?
to stay ultra competitive after each run we would cut the arm and new brushes and springs
each run would cost approx $6 and running 3 qualifiers and a main alone cost $24 just my .02
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:46 PM   #25
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What if a club had handout motors for weekly racing? Maybe just in the lower, VTA & USGT classes. Buy a bunch of lower priced, fixed timing motors at wholesale. Label and seal them somehow so they're easily identifiable. Every raceday, you pick a random motor out of the box and that's what you run. At the end of the day, you return it.

Tracks could actually require a fan and maybe even limit gearing so the motors aren't too badly abused.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:48 PM   #26
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I know it won't be a popular answer, but the answer really lies in making the cars traction limited instead of power limited. Imagine if USVTA or F1 was 13.5 instead of 25.5. Motor wars would be non-existent. That's too much power for those cars & tires to put down. So you'd have to dial the throttle EPA back to make the cars get around the track cleanly. EVERY car would have enough power to spin the tires.

So then it would be up to the driver skill.

Newbies? They don't HAVE to put in a 13.5 (or whatever), they can put in whatever they can handle. As their skill improves, then add power.

We tried a class locally called 'Rat Rods'. Only one rule: you had to use the USVTA tires. Any motor, battery, esc, body, whatever you wanted. The tires became the limiting factor. Pretty much anything more than a 21.5 was too much power. We had guys out there with 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, 21.5, 25.5 motors. All were competitive on our smallish indoor carpet track. You could actually FEEL the tires starting to melt. lol... Cheap racing too. Tech was easy. "got the USVTA tires? Yep? Good."

Just a thought...
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:53 PM   #27
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Wouldn't it be feasible to utilize the Traxxas Velenion 3500 system for a spec class? They have decent power, can take a pretty heavy beating and have some sort of a lifetime guarantee exchange policy. I don't think that the timing can be altered and it is a sensorless motor as well. I think. They fall in a workable price range too. With a ratio limit all the cars would be capable of the same speed so it turns into a drivers class. I know that making it a drivers class is or can be a problem since it makes some of the self professed hero drivers see that they in fact are quite something else.

I am not sure when it turned into a terminal velocity contest instead of a race but that seems to be how things are going. It is moderately entertaining to watch a car "handle" down a long straight but it is a hoot and a half to watch a group of cars duel it out for however many minutes the races are now with everybody finishing on the same lap.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:57 PM   #28
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Cheap racing too. Tech was easy. "got the USVTA tires? Yep? Good."

Just a thought...
I'm 100% onboard with this. Traction limiting is a really good idea.

I have pondred a "tipover limited" racing class. Where you're wheelie limited. But that's a longer story for another time.
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:10 PM   #29
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to stay ultra competitive after each run we would cut the arm and new brushes and springs
each run would cost approx $6 and running 3 qualifiers and a main alone cost $24 just my .02
You left out the need for a com truer and a charger and stand to break in the brushes. Oh, also you had to buy comm drops. I still remember when I bought my Xipp comm lathe and I was one of the "cool" guys!
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:18 PM   #30
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Mmm silver brushes and hard springs. Ways to make a motor have a three minute lifespan.
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