Will 21.5 Brushless be the new stock?
12-07-2016, 08:21 PM
#106
Many comments about sponsored drivers.
Many true, many not so much.
The problem as I have seen it is that a sponsored driver can afford to just burn their motor/battery/ESC in every race to get the extra .0000001 of a second. They have another one for the next race (and we have seen here someone burn through three top motors and two ESCs in one day of finals). Now if that is not a money competition, I don't know what is. Crank the timing on your motor to high heaven, run it into the ground, no worries!
I fail to see the fun in that, but if you can't win without that kind of "effort", I would say you can't win, period.
Motors. I am not very knowledgeable with every motor of the week/day/hour, but I have seen recently the difference in motors in both 21.5 and 13.5 at our track (none of which I race). The top spots are swapped around between the guys with the fastest motor (I think right now it's some kind of Fantom? or something like that), not necessarily the best skill set. Which is a loss to racing quality (from my point of view).
And of course, these are not motors anyone can walk into the hobby shop and buy, because they come from overseas. Firstly you have to spend your entire life on the interwebs, trawl your way through all the dribble and hype, then find out what the next best thing is, then you have to find where you can buy it, then you need to actually find it and get it in time for your race. Otherwise known as a money exercise.
At the last meeting, of course the assembly voted against motor control. Surprise.
Many true, many not so much.
The problem as I have seen it is that a sponsored driver can afford to just burn their motor/battery/ESC in every race to get the extra .0000001 of a second. They have another one for the next race (and we have seen here someone burn through three top motors and two ESCs in one day of finals). Now if that is not a money competition, I don't know what is. Crank the timing on your motor to high heaven, run it into the ground, no worries!
I fail to see the fun in that, but if you can't win without that kind of "effort", I would say you can't win, period.
Motors. I am not very knowledgeable with every motor of the week/day/hour, but I have seen recently the difference in motors in both 21.5 and 13.5 at our track (none of which I race). The top spots are swapped around between the guys with the fastest motor (I think right now it's some kind of Fantom? or something like that), not necessarily the best skill set. Which is a loss to racing quality (from my point of view).
And of course, these are not motors anyone can walk into the hobby shop and buy, because they come from overseas. Firstly you have to spend your entire life on the interwebs, trawl your way through all the dribble and hype, then find out what the next best thing is, then you have to find where you can buy it, then you need to actually find it and get it in time for your race. Otherwise known as a money exercise.
At the last meeting, of course the assembly voted against motor control. Surprise.
Last edited by niznai; 12-07-2016 at 08:35 PM.
12-07-2016, 08:35 PM
#107
I think some of the sponsored/pro drivers are missing the point about mixing in with intermediate and old/ new drivers.
The reality is that most of our tracks are narrow one line tracks and driving too far off the race line picks up all the marbles, paint chips and stray body clips. Running 17.5 TC and 1/12 scale, everybody knows they are supposed to move over when a fast guys comes up. This is correct and I pride myself on letting anybody who catches me with decent speed to pass cleanly. The problem I have is fast/pro drivers who go into slower classes where they can lap club racers every 3 or 4 laps and they bitch and scream like little babies if they have to wait 1 or 2 corners before someone lets them by. This also means the guys who pull over have to drive a full lap on that slippery mess before the tires clean up again. Tracks who vacuum often aren't quite as bad, but they are rare.
I realize that USGT wasn't created as a new driver class. I was on here when the original idea was discussed. The biggest draw was being able to race a body that wasn't a Mazda speed 6. In my mind all TC bodies are a speed 6.
The 21.5 motor however was to keep pro drivers out of USGT and more importantly keep average drivers out of the way of pro drivers in 17.5 TC who are preparing for specific events like Snow Birds, Vegas, the Gate etc.
Keep in mind that off-road carpet and turf doesn't have the same loss of traction when you let someone pass. Mini-pins clean up really fast and still have mechanical grip. So don't whine if mid level drivers leave VTA and USGT after being run out of all the slower classes and buy 2wd buggies to run on turf.
The reality is that most of our tracks are narrow one line tracks and driving too far off the race line picks up all the marbles, paint chips and stray body clips. Running 17.5 TC and 1/12 scale, everybody knows they are supposed to move over when a fast guys comes up. This is correct and I pride myself on letting anybody who catches me with decent speed to pass cleanly. The problem I have is fast/pro drivers who go into slower classes where they can lap club racers every 3 or 4 laps and they bitch and scream like little babies if they have to wait 1 or 2 corners before someone lets them by. This also means the guys who pull over have to drive a full lap on that slippery mess before the tires clean up again. Tracks who vacuum often aren't quite as bad, but they are rare.
I realize that USGT wasn't created as a new driver class. I was on here when the original idea was discussed. The biggest draw was being able to race a body that wasn't a Mazda speed 6. In my mind all TC bodies are a speed 6.
The 21.5 motor however was to keep pro drivers out of USGT and more importantly keep average drivers out of the way of pro drivers in 17.5 TC who are preparing for specific events like Snow Birds, Vegas, the Gate etc.
Keep in mind that off-road carpet and turf doesn't have the same loss of traction when you let someone pass. Mini-pins clean up really fast and still have mechanical grip. So don't whine if mid level drivers leave VTA and USGT after being run out of all the slower classes and buy 2wd buggies to run on turf.
12-08-2016, 12:30 AM
#108
The problem is sooner or later pro drivers get bored in their class, and move to one of the popular classes and the balance is gone.
12-08-2016, 03:01 AM
#109
And that's folks, is why I don't think it's bad to have sponsored drivers at USGT or VTA. Cost control should be the name of the game not an arbitrary motor turn. DesertRat nailed it, motors now are all Mod! Niznai said sponsored drivers can afford to drive their parts to the ground, well here we have a penalty system like F1 has, you burned your motor? X place penalty. Penalties folks, make burning ESC and motors a bad thing and people will stop doing it.
12-08-2016, 04:07 AM
#110
Respectfully disagree, as a "Stock" class. The aspect of being pegged most of the time was true when we ran 27t brushed motors and no one said it was too slow for stock with slicks or foams. The reality is that 21.5 is faster than 27t brushed was. 17.5 is far, far too fast to be that and is realistically what super stock should be for indoor tracks, with 13.5 going by the wayside. 17.5 cars give up very little to modified on most indoor tracks outside of straights.
I have spoken with probably a dozen racers that I've been racing with for 10+ years, and most of them agree that 21.5 is appropriate speed for stock (or at least the pre-TSR The One II speed).
I have spoken with probably a dozen racers that I've been racing with for 10+ years, and most of them agree that 21.5 is appropriate speed for stock (or at least the pre-TSR The One II speed).
Did you try TC 21.5? It's literally the most boring thing I've ever driven. I can agree that the "speed" is fine of a 21.5; but with slicks on black carpet the car is just nonreactive.
USGT is great for a reason, it has less grippy tires.
12-08-2016, 04:18 AM
#111
12-08-2016, 05:32 AM
#113
I agree, it's not that someone is sponsored or not, and as I pointed out earlier, there are people with deeper pockets than sponsor companies.
Which is why spec everything comes back into play. ETS didn't spec tyres, ESC, motors and gear ratio for nothing.
Sure, you will say, what about batteries ? Well, I guess the gain from a top end battery selected and breathed upon by unicorns are minimal and easily offset by driving and setup.
Which is why spec everything comes back into play. ETS didn't spec tyres, ESC, motors and gear ratio for nothing.
Sure, you will say, what about batteries ? Well, I guess the gain from a top end battery selected and breathed upon by unicorns are minimal and easily offset by driving and setup.
12-08-2016, 05:39 AM
#114
Not sure who your referring to that burns thru motors and escs to win. But every motor I have PURCHASED and I mean every motor I own/have ,I went on Amain hobbies (reedy),Ea motorsports(Trinity) ,motiv rc,team scream racing and purchased it using PayPal. Only one motor ever was a shining star but somehow my boys room is full of 1st &TQ trophies in usgt. He hasn't burnt up one motor or ESC ever . And the same tires have been ran at several events . So if your burning up stuff to try to win your doing something very wrong
12-08-2016, 06:12 AM
#116
Not sure who your referring to that burns thru motors and escs to win. But every motor I have PURCHASED and I mean every motor I own/have ,I went on Amain hobbies (reedy),Ea motorsports(Trinity) ,motiv rc,team scream racing and purchased it using PayPal. Only one motor ever was a shining star but somehow my boys room is full of 1st &TQ trophies in usgt. He hasn't burnt up one motor or ESC ever . And the same tires have been ran at several events . So if your burning up stuff to try to win your doing something very wrong
12-08-2016, 06:56 AM
#118
Even Hudy has burned motors on the ETS before they could measure the FDR. With the limited FDR it should be impossible to burn motors but he did.
12-08-2016, 07:08 AM
#119
Not sure who your referring to that burns thru motors and escs to win. But every motor I have PURCHASED and I mean every motor I own/have ,I went on Amain hobbies (reedy),Ea motorsports(Trinity) ,motiv rc,team scream racing and purchased it using PayPal. Only one motor ever was a shining star but somehow my boys room is full of 1st &TQ trophies in usgt. He hasn't burnt up one motor or ESC ever . And the same tires have been ran at several events . So if your burning up stuff to try to win your doing something very wrong
didn't you read above that people ran their equipment in the brink of failure because "performance edge"? If you aren't one of those persons then great, the stuff lasts more and brings you hardware even better. I don't need that edge too, my electric setup is from 4 years ago and I still have fun at the track, but if it' cheaper doesn't it mean more can do it or for longer time?Were you around in the brushed era? I was and cutting comms to almost nothing and new brushes every X time on track and special oils and voodoo and zappers this and new cells with a increase of 0.00001 in voltage. With BL/Lipo we got rid off that.
12-08-2016, 07:21 AM
#120
So, 21.5 is the new stock?