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Old 12-07-2016, 06:07 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
There is a price cap at but it don't work unfortunately.
I have no clue why they changed the approval windows to open all yr ,o that's right ,so manufacturers sell more motors and roar gets more approvals submitted .
Should have just had one window like in August or September then those motors were the hotness for 1 yr
Because everyone and their mother complained when they restricted the approval window.

Oh, wait a minute, everyone and their mother complains whenever ROAR does anything!
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:35 AM   #62
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21.5 on TC tires is too slow, you can throttle peg it most of the time. It requires tires with less grip (ie USGT). I suggested USGT became the "Stock TC" class last year but was shot down. I could even see it go further and say 17.5 with the Gravity tires as Stock, then perhaps 13.5 with normal tires would become the Superstock class, which would more closely align us with Europe.

Ultimately, two TC classes with 21.5 is a mistake IMO.
Agree and you bring up a good point regarding appropriate traction for the power available. If anything it illustrates how differently racers see this hobby progressing. I thought F1 made a mistake by going to the less powerful motor and after driving a WGT-R car thought it was a complete waste of time. The thing is people seem to dig those classes. I was also part of the 21.5 TC experiment at the Gate a year or so back and it was exactly how you described it. Treaded Gravity tires on a 17.5? Sounds fun to me but I don't think many are looking for a challenge like that.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:40 AM   #63
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21.5 on TC tires is too slow, you can throttle peg it most of the time. It requires tires with less grip (ie USGT). I suggested USGT became the "Stock TC" class last year but was shot down. I could even see it go further and say 17.5 with the Gravity tires as Stock, then perhaps 13.5 with normal tires would become the Superstock class, which would more closely align us with Europe.

Ultimately, two TC classes with 21.5 is a mistake IMO.
13.5 and "normal tires" vs gravity. What are normal tires?
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:46 AM   #64
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Agree and you bring up a good point regarding appropriate traction for the power available. If anything it illustrates how differently racers see this hobby progressing. I thought F1 made a mistake by going to the less powerful motor and after driving a WGT-R car thought it was a complete waste of time. The thing is people seem to dig those classes. I was also part of the 21.5 TC experiment at the Gate a year or so back and it was exactly how you described it. Treaded Gravity tires on a 17.5? Sounds fun to me but I don't think many are looking for a challenge like that.
Well last yr a 21.5 was slow. Not the case this yr . We did testing and the new hotness is .3sec faster than last yrs cream of the crop . We all know setup and gearing is part of the equation but with everything the same the new tsr is .3 faster at our track (thunder rc ) so if you feel it's still slow you sir need to be running mod and staying out of these treads .
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:47 AM   #65
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I suggested USGT became the "Stock TC" class last year but was shot down.
If we look at the number of participating racers, USGT is already the new "stock" TC. Plus, 17.5 TC is wildly popular, and will remain that way.

I don't think there is any need to keep using the terms "stock", "superstock", etc. The speed of the cars has increased so much over the years it makes comparisons via semantics inaccurate and confusing.

Personally, I'm reasonably content with USGT and 17.5TC, and think that adding similar classes is counterproductive.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:34 AM   #66
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I guess the best way to see this is simple, the whole point of racing is to be "faster" than the next guy, not a have a rc car parade. So in the end we will find a way (car, motor, tires, esc, battery) to get faster. No matter what class you race someone will find a way to be faster and everybody else will find a way to catch them. New classes won't change that, and actually once again, that's why it's racing and not a parade.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:43 AM   #67
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:44 AM   #68
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Amusing how many people are at odds. Little wonder it's hard to get people into the hobby (see the other thread).

A 90ft main straight is just about the average size of tracks in Australia as well, and we run 1/8E on them with speeds of over 100km/h (on ours the top recorded by Lidar is about 115). Now that is some speed for the angry little men who complain 21.5 is too slow.

And on our track, 21.5 is already pushing into 13.5 territory.

Funny how many people suggest to send beginners in USGT and VTA when others have already pointed out there are sponsored drivers in these classes.

Not to say there are people who can afford and do spend more than a factory sponsored driver on their gear and then race in 21.5.

It has been proven clearly enough already. TCS and ETS work because of the tight rules. No motor of the week, battery of the month, speedy of the season. Do that and you'll have people in the hobby and fair racing where your driving counts more than the size of your pockets.

Have "open" classes where people can use whatever class motor they want within the wind spec if you need that kind of boost to your ego. Call it whatever you want. My money sez you'll soon be left racing alone if you really have the money. Why do you think all these so called "pro" drivers mingle with the "beginners" in the "slow" classes? They got sick of racing alone in classes where the money counts. And the effect was they have brought the money racing with them. That is why these classes were "proven" failures. Rules have been abandoned in a deluge of speedies, motors and batteries nobody can keep track of with prices out of control.

It has been proven that motors, tyres and ESCs are not all equal especially after brushless, not to mention batteries (with the advent of Lipo). We can continue the money race or go back to RC racing. I think in the end common sense will prevail by sheer force of numbers even if it is going to take a while.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:48 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by jlfx car audio View Post
Well last yr a 21.5 was slow. Not the case this yr . We did testing and the new hotness is .3sec faster than last yrs cream of the crop . We all know setup and gearing is part of the equation but with everything the same the new tsr is .3 faster at our track (thunder rc ) so if you feel it's still slow you sir need to be running mod and staying out of these treads .
Instead of getting defensive and responding with some absurd straw-man argument perhaps re-read what I said. I didn't say it was slow and didn't even bring up lap times. It is the feel of running lower power and a lot of traction that I don't really dig. 17.5 TC gives me enough of that to keep me happy. 13.5 is fun also but it can't seem to take hold as a class locally. No need for me to run mod. I get the new TSR 21.5 is faster than the old. I have both and like that the power of the new motor makes for a more lively car IMO. Let me repeat, IMO.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:42 AM   #70
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A lot of it has to do with trying to bring in new racers. Slower is usually more fun for newbies and when new people have to race sponsored/national level drivers, knowing they stand absolutely no chance of doing well, why bother?
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Stupid question time:

What is the fascination with slower racing in the US? Why do mod and 13.5 boosted seem so unpopular?

I can understand 17.5 blinky at club level but 21.5 and 25.5 just seem too slow, especially at national events.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:12 AM   #71
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Over here we have decent tracks but the real electric tracks are smaller than the so called gas tracks.
The main national stock class is the ETS style 13.5Turn with a stock or blinky ESC and a limited FDR. The clubmembers of the smaller tracks want to see a 17.5 turn competition and the guys of the largest track a 10.5 turns. Problem with the electric boys I see is that they will never agree to run one or just a limited amount of classes. If you give them the classes they want they will end up with 30 classes with not more than 5 driver per class.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwagner View Post
21.5 on TC tires is too slow, you can throttle peg it most of the time. It requires tires with less grip (ie USGT). I suggested USGT became the "Stock TC" class last year but was shot down. I could even see it go further and say 17.5 with the Gravity tires as Stock, then perhaps 13.5 with normal tires would become the Superstock class, which would more closely align us with Europe.

Ultimately, two TC classes with 21.5 is a mistake IMO.
Respectfully disagree, as a "Stock" class. The aspect of being pegged most of the time was true when we ran 27t brushed motors and no one said it was too slow for stock with slicks or foams. The reality is that 21.5 is faster than 27t brushed was. 17.5 is far, far too fast to be that and is realistically what super stock should be for indoor tracks, with 13.5 going by the wayside. 17.5 cars give up very little to modified on most indoor tracks outside of straights.

I have spoken with probably a dozen racers that I've been racing with for 10+ years, and most of them agree that 21.5 is appropriate speed for stock (or at least the pre-TSR The One II speed).
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:45 AM   #73
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Um, excuse me, but when did 17.5 touring car become too fast?

Here's a better question who's fault is it that 17.5 became too fast?

And why are we sacrificing USGT to solve this?
I think it became too fast with the introduction of lipo batteries.

It is ultimately ROAR's fault for switching stock from 27t brushed to 17.5 brushless. They did this because brushless was slower than brushed when introduced. Now that brushless motors have gotten better they are a lot faster than when introduced.

They should monitor and test against 27t brushed motors and adjust rules to keep the speeds down.

If you read Bob Stormer's thread about the death of 1/10 pan cars, the speeds just got too ridiculous and no one wanted to marshall them. All these guys that want to keep going faster and faster will eventually kill off their own class.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:05 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Over here we have decent tracks but the real electric tracks are smaller than the so called gas tracks.
The main national stock class is the ETS style 13.5Turn with a stock or blinky ESC and a limited FDR. The clubmembers of the smaller tracks want to see a 17.5 turn competition and the guys of the largest track a 10.5 turns. Problem with the electric boys I see is that they will never agree to run one or just a limited amount of classes. If you give them the classes they want they will end up with 30 classes with not more than 5 driver per class.
I agree. There's too many fruit cups out there that want their own class. And they'll keep making new classes and moving whenever "their class" gets faster and/or more competitive.

The very first rule change we need to make is:
1.) If we create a new class, we have to eliminate an old class.

And maybe even make a set limit of classes for any given race day.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:16 AM   #75
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I think traction is the best way to limit things. My VTA car needs the throttle adjusted twice per lap, which is way to little in my opinion. The rest of it is just precise steering timing...

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If you read Bob Stormer's thread about the death of 1/10 pan cars, the speeds just got too ridiculous and no one wanted to marshall them. All these guys that want to keep going faster and faster will eventually kill off their own class.
Got a link to that thread?
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