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Old 12-13-2016, 09:59 PM   #256
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Yes the theory is that controlled motor/FDR would eventually flow through, but than you end up with a disparity within the class for those running the combo and those that not, because the reality is as soon as you go to a controlled FDR you are already running slower unless the motor wind changes.

I don't think this vote will pass, but time will tell.
I don't follow this argument.

How would anyone be running in the spec class if they're not running the spec combo?
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:08 PM   #257
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I don't follow this argument.

How would anyone be running in the spec class if they're not running the spec combo?
I think they're saying that at the club level, it's going to be difficult to just tell all the members who have no aspirations for racing at a large AARCMCC event that they now need to buy new gear to continue racing at the club. You can't just change club level classes so drastically. The part of the quote you snipped out was relevant context.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:17 PM   #258
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To do the leg work and contact a manufacturer, get some motors and start testing before we even knew if the racers want to go this way, just doesn't make sense in the real world, that is why we had to vote on an idea, not an airtight contract. Unfortunately, a lot of people used this an excuse to vote the idea down.
That's the thing, there was so called "polls" that all (allegedly) said a majority were in favour of the idea, to which the AARCMCC committee used as a platform to put forward the proposals.

Just "who" were the majority, it wasn't the "majority" of people who race in the class that it affected, because those same people voted it down. I know of other clubs that voted no, because of the people that race in the classes felt that the "proposal" was already a done deal, and weren't happy at the timing of the proposal, and how they felt that it was being forced on them.

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Not knowing what motor to run, it would have been completely stupid to come up with a FDR, the more so since like Nexxus said, different tracks will demand different FDRs to stay within reason.
Exactly, there was no consultation with the clubs, asking if they would/could try a couple of motors that may be used, and to come up with a workable FDR that ensured both good performance without running the motor to within an inch of it's life, even if cooling fans were used.

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These are just propositions aimed at trying to level the playing field, implementation is another thing.
And that is a good thing, but waiting to nearly the end of the year to put the proposals up, without any consultation to clubs got most people on the back foot, and viewing the proposals unfavorably

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I don't find any of these good enough reasons to turn down the idea, but it was voted down in our club, unfortunately.
The majority of those that voted, must have found good enough reasons to why they voted it down.

Seeing how the current AARCMCC committee, has the ability to put forward proposals, without having to wait on clubs to put proposals forward, then they also have the ability to consult, and communicate with clubs and their members first before putting proposals forward, that would be a game changer in the hobby/sport.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:24 PM   #259
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I think they're saying that at the club level, it's going to be difficult to just tell all the members who have no aspirations for racing at a large AARCMCC event that they now need to buy new gear to continue racing at the club. You can't just change club level classes so drastically.
I reckon the ESC is a non-issue, so a couple of possibilities:
  • Club-only racers will probably get better value for money by buying/using the nominated motor anyway
  • Racers interested in sanctioned events probably won't balk at having a motor for club racing
  • Use a low-cost FDR/RPM checker to cap non-spec motors

The "uber competitiveness" at clubs is a factor that some new starters find uncomfortable and has nothing to do with equipment, but attitude. As I indicated earlier, you can't solve every problem with one initiative, but that doesn't mean you don't start somewhere.

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Old 12-13-2016, 10:34 PM   #260
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To be honest, I find this disappointing. Paraphrased, they're saying "we can't fix every known & perceived problem, so we'll fix none of them".

The "uber competitiveness" at clubs is a factor that some new starters find uncomfortable and has nothing to do with equipment, but attitude. As I indicated earlier, you can't solve every problem with one initiative, but that doesn't mean you don't start somewhere.

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While I think its sad the proposal will fail, I think it will give the committee some more time to work on some of the perceived issues, and have another try in 6 months
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:47 PM   #261
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The "uber competitiveness" at clubs is a factor that some new starters find uncomfortable and has nothing to do with equipment, but attitude. As I indicated earlier, you can't solve every problem with one initiative, but that doesn't mean you don't start somewhere.

Phil.
Along with the "deep pockets" attitude that new comers believe they have to spend large amounts of coin to just be competitive.

This is why some clubs are experimenting with their own control motor, fdr, & tire classes (GT, Club Stock, etc). Some may not take off, other concepts may do though, especially if they are budget friendly, the components are easily sourced, and a simple fdr & rpm checker can be employed to make sure everyone is playing fairly.

Addressing a perceived problem from only one end won't solve anything, work from both directions, and a solution may come quicker.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:51 PM   #262
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  • Club-only racers will probably get better value for money by buying/using the nominated motor anyway
The cheapest motor is the motor you already have.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:20 PM   #263
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They don't even know what the motor is yet, when I queried it and pointed out a few points, like that there are very few 21.5 locked motors on the roar list they said it may not even be roar legal??

So we are going to make up the rules as we go now?

Can I run a non roar esc at the nats now?

Noone would dare try would they? This sort of double standard bs just taints the arguement, I mean why should I vote for more controls when you won't follow the controls we have in place?

It's double standards, it's secret agendas, it's ego, it's power, and the whole lot of it stinks, so let those of us not driven away just grab our cars, race with our mates and have fun without a store / sponsor / company / over zealous control person try and spoil our day with some rule proposals they have no idea how to impliment.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:48 PM   #264
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They don't even know what the motor is yet, when I queried it and pointed out a few points, like that there are very few 21.5 locked motors on the roar list they said it may not even be roar legal??

So we are going to make up the rules as we go now?

Can I run a non roar esc at the nats now?

Noone would dare try would they? This sort of double standard bs just taints the arguement, I mean why should I vote for more controls when you won't follow the controls we have in place?

It's double standards, it's secret agendas, it's ego, it's power, and the whole lot of it stinks, so let those of us not driven away just grab our cars, race with our mates and have fun without a store / sponsor / company / over zealous control person try and spoil our day with some rule proposals they have no idea how to impliment.
As was mentioned on the earlier discussion, if you're going to go through the trouble of certifying a spec motor yourself, there's no need to restrict the options to the ROAR list. You wouldn't run them against other generic ROAR approved motors.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:52 PM   #265
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Sounds like abandoning the well defined and followed rules to suit one proposal.

Would we then abandon 'all' Roar rules or just those that impede this being pushed through?
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:00 AM   #266
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Sounds like abandoning the well defined and followed rules to suit one proposal.

Would we then abandon 'all' Roar rules or just those that impede this being pushed through?
We aren't part of ROAR. Our 40mm fan rule already violates ROAR rules. We're only inheriting the parts of ROAR that suit us as it's more convenient than certifying everything ourselves. There's no reason to throw out ROAR ESCs if we're only specifying a control motor. There's also nothing binding us to ROAR as a template, we could use EFRA, BCRA or some other equivalent.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:12 AM   #267
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The 40mm fan rule would be simply a reflection of the climate here comparative to the US. I strongly disagree with abandoning what has been the generally accepted rule set to accommodate a proposal that's contentious at best.
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:18 AM   #268
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Wallet racing/motor wars are real - putting some controls in place will help. There are other issues to work on, but let's start somewhere.

Phil.
That's why I advocate for change from the ground up, not from the top down.

If someone wants to shell out hundreds/thousands to attend state/national/other events, then let them do so. No amount of effort to control aspects such as tire/motor/esc/fdr/goop etc will stop the wallet wars at these events, people will find another way to gain an advantage against their opposition.

I keep hearing the argument about the ETS series being so popular & successful, of course it is when you consider the amount of money being poured into it, along with the fact that the leaders are professional drivers with either backing from sponsorship, or jobs/business's that allow them to travel all over Europe.

If we want to change things to gain more participation at all levels of rc racing, it has to be done from club level first as that's where everyone starts out, without club racing/racers, there's no other racing outside of that period.

Implement a simple method of getting new people into racing, with controls in place to also keep the moderately experienced drivers within the club.
Once you have a good number of members/racers in clubs, then encourage them to participate in events outside of the club, and offer assistance to make it easy for their first experience at an event such as loaning them equipment, offering to help setup and get their car going better etc.

Also, give the more experienced and faster racers the opportunity to race with the gear of their choice. Telling someone that they can't use x, y, or z components in their cars because of a rule change that "only" relates to sanctioned events, is going to met with a lot of discontent.

I too agree that things need to be addressed, but from a different direction that will gain support, and members, not the other way around.

*edit* Anyway, I think we've hijacked this thread and maybe best to talk about this in a different thread.
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Last edited by ta04evah; 12-14-2016 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Sorry, going off tangent.
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:49 AM   #269
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I keep hearing the argument about the ETS series being so popular & successful, of course it is when you consider the amount of money being poured into it, along with the fact that the leaders are professional drivers with either backing from sponsorship, or jobs/business's that allow them to travel all over Europe.
Indeed the ETS is one large commercial thing but with every year 200 stock drivers at the Andernach race (+100 mod + 100 F1) it seems to be a huge succes. I know the old Speed Passion motors were a disaster for the competition with manny different spec motor all with the same part number.
The change to the Muchmore set was a huge change, the guys who did the technical inspection also meassured the KV of the used motor/ESC set and all were very close, if someone did make a small illigal change to the motor or ESC it was directly noticed.
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Old 12-14-2016, 05:28 AM   #270
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That is a big problem for small markets. Here, it would make no sense to go through such an effort at club scale and then have everybody elsewhere run a different motor. That is why the question was asked in principle. Too bad there are too many people invested to their eyeballs in their motor of the week philosophy who would have a lot to lose if something like that got off the ground. All you need is a couple in every club and things won't change until the club is driven into the ground.
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