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Old 12-08-2016, 10:16 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by niznai View Post
Yeah, so different FDR, so your comment doesn't change my point.
Limiting the FDR with no tools for a fast check than only by looking at the numbers on the gears and a list of the internal ratio's is asking to be fooled. Indeed using diffs or pulleys from other brands (or in the case of hudy probably special made) will change the internal ratio.
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:24 AM   #137
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Limiting the FDR with no tools for a fast check than only by looking at the numbers on the gears and a list of the internal ratio's is asking to be fooled. Indeed using diffs or pulleys from other brands (or in the case of hudy probably special made) will change the internal ratio.
For the ETS race series they developed a dyno to detect this very thing.

Patrick
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:29 AM   #138
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That they did
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:32 AM   #139
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For the ETS race series they developed a dyno to detect this very thing.

Patrick
And if memory serves me correctly, Roelof is the one that made it.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:02 AM   #140
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Okay first thing, I've said this before, I'll say it again. There is no stock. There never has been. There never will be. Because stock would mean you go to the hobby counter, buy a motor, take it out of the package, and put it in your car. You cannot do anything to that motor. No timing adjustments, no spacers, and no unicorns. If the rules say you can change even the smallest thing, it is no longer a stock motor. It may have the stock specs, but it is no longer "as it came from the factory."

Now that said, basing classes on motor specs is fine, and necessary. So here's my question. It is my experience that the faster the motor is, the less likely someone is going to "cheat" with that motor. No matter what track, there's only so fast you can go. The lap time comparisons prove that. Sure, the faster classes are not that much faster, but that's because they can't use all the power they have. 17.5 may be a point and shoot class, but 13.5 you need to worry about braking zones and such. If you're not using full throttle, you're not using all your motor.

So I don't get why 21.5 should be the "new stock." Leave it 17.5 and let that class be the "if you wanna race, race here" class. Let USGT remain as the "I still wanna race, but I don't wanna go crazy" class.

If you force racers down from 17.5 to 21.5, you're going to force lower driver into even slower classes, and possibly right out of the hobby.
Cannot disagree more here. Too many of you guys are thinking like people who have been in the hobby for a decade or more, and not trying to step back and look at a different perspective. I am imagining my 13 yr old self, when I started in the hobby, trying to drive a 17.5 TC, and it's not pretty. The speed attracts new people, and then just as quickly frustrates them to the point where they quit. When I started racing stock TC in 2000, I thought they were really fast! Sure, I didn't need to worry about spinning out due to overzealous throttle application, but appropriate throttle control was still required when I was learning.

Even USGT is very quick, quicker than 27t brushed was, for a new or non-veteran racer that's honing their driving and setup skills.

The point is this: the cars have gotten A LOT faster, but we humans are no more capable at handling speed than we were 10 years ago. Touring car was booming from 2000-2007. The maintenance required to have a competent setup is less now (virtually no motor maintenance, and limited battery maintenance, at least compared to the NiCd/NiMH days), but the foundational class for TC is so fast that everything matters more. The faster the cars go, the more each minor change makes a difference. We're also in motor of the month/quarter wars that are obsoleting older ones. The newest 'spec' motors are not just faster than what came before it, they're nearly in another class. That never happened with brushed motors. 17.5 is quicker than 19t was, a class that was used to help people step up to modified and get some extra track time while they were at it.

If "stock" were to drop from 17.5 to 21.5 or gasp, even 25.5, why wouldn't you just run the equivalent of "super stock", i.e. 17.5, or better yet, modified? Most of us experienced folk can handle the speed, and guess what, it's cheaper to run!
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:36 AM   #141
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Brian, I think you make some good points, but I think your perspective may be completely the opposite of mine.

Your example is a 13 year old kid looking to get an RC car. There's no way a 13 year old should start in 17.5, or even VTA. A car for him (or her) has to be 2 things; cheap and slow. And we're fortunate that RC has an answer to that. I give you the Tamiya Championship Series.

Yea, yea, I know you can lose your mind in some of the faster classes, even in Mini. But if you go all the way to TT-01 you have a car that's relatively cheap and slow enough to learn on, but fast enough to race. But this can only be done on the local level, and most of the conversation here is on the race classes that people can travel to and know what the rules will be when they get there.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:38 AM   #142
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Cannot disagree more here. Too many of you guys are thinking like people who have been in the hobby for a decade or more, and not trying to step back and look at a different perspective. I am imagining my 13 yr old self, when I started in the hobby, trying to drive a 17.5 TC, and it's not pretty. The speed attracts new people, and then just as quickly frustrates them to the point where they quit. When I started racing stock TC in 2000, I thought they were really fast! Sure, I didn't need to worry about spinning out due to overzealous throttle application, but appropriate throttle control was still required when I was learning.

Even USGT is very quick, quicker than 27t brushed was, for a new or non-veteran racer that's honing their driving and setup skills.

The point is this: the cars have gotten A LOT faster, but we humans are no more capable at handling speed than we were 10 years ago. Touring car was booming from 2000-2007. The maintenance required to have a competent setup is less now (virtually no motor maintenance, and limited battery maintenance, at least compared to the NiCd/NiMH days), but the foundational class for TC is so fast that everything matters more. The faster the cars go, the more each minor change makes a difference. We're also in motor of the month/quarter wars that are obsoleting older ones. The newest 'spec' motors are not just faster than what came before it, they're nearly in another class. That never happened with brushed motors. 17.5 is quicker than 19t was, a class that was used to help people step up to modified and get some extra track time while they were at it.

If "stock" were to drop from 17.5 to 21.5 or gasp, even 25.5, why wouldn't you just run the equivalent of "super stock", i.e. 17.5, or better yet, modified? Most of us experienced folk can handle the speed, and guess what, it's cheaper to run!
That summarizes up pretty well .
One thing tho theirs no reason to add 21.5tc to a already deluted atmosphere of racing .
Just make usgt the slower "spec" class
vta the slowest "spec" class
Call 17.5tc just that (get rid of the superstock label)
then have mod .
Maby one day it will change to a ETS style format
Locked 13.5 & fdr tc
Mod
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:43 AM   #143
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For the ETS race series they developed a dyno to detect this very thing.

Patrick
It isn't that difficult. There are handheld rev counters these days and you can very easily measure just about anything that rotates with them (no need for any markers or stuff), pretty much like infrared thermometers. I've actually had mine for over ten years, though I'll say it was expensive back then and today it looks antiquated. But you can measure FDR with just two readings, one on the motor, one on the wheel and divide the numbers. No need for a special "dyno" (which is not a dyno, by the way).

But Xray has such a range of pulleys in their cars, you can have a car with almost any internal ratio without resorting to special parts. And they offer belts in one tooth increments so no problem.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:52 AM   #144
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Back to the debate, I think it is a false problem around speed. Nobody wants to limit speed or make any class slower. Motors are getting faster, and guess what? The speed difference between classes is diminished to the point that it doesn't make any difference which one you run.

The problem of a stock class is not even specs. everybody agrees you have to spec (look at any serious sport and you'll see rules so tough, sometimes they don't make sense if you don't know what they're trying to control).

the real problem in our sport is finding supplies to support your rules in a consistent way. In Oz, we are struggling to get tyre, let alone find someone willing to import this or that motor or battery or tyre, ESC and so on for racers only. As someone already pointed out in another thread, shop owners make more money from impulse buyers walking off the street and buying a cheap single-use drone. So much so, that you can buy these darn things pretty much everywhere, including supermarkets.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:53 AM   #145
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:10 PM   #146
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:50 PM   #147
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No we wasn't call out by any means . I just simply took it to heart when people say the ones winning are..... Cause I know that's just not the case in usgt(only class currently running a 21.5)
As far as brushed days I was there (started racing in 94) as you said all that is over with .
For anyone thinking (not that you are ) he had the best of something else to gain a edge to win every usgt race he enters , he ,we swapped the unicorn R1 packs for cheap nano-tech $48 packs to use in Cleveland.
Lol Ultimate nanos are some of the best packs available...oops I guess the secret is out.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:16 PM   #148
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When I started in 2000, there was 4 classes at your local class: mod, 19t, stock and TL01.

I started with L01. It was fast enough for me. Then after a few month/race, I made the switch for stock since it was fast enough for me. Then I bought a 19T had had fun in that class. I was not the best but I was able to drive that class and have fun.

For me I think that there is no stock class but more ‘’you race what you could handle’’. Not everybody have the skill and this is normal. So if one class is too fast for you, switch to a slower class…etc.

After a few year break in 1/10, I started again to race it. Here, we have 2 classes: 17.5 and 21.5 (include VTA and USGT). The difference between both class is maybe 0.5 sec lap for the top driver.

As for me, I drive my old losi jxrs type r with old electronic in 17.5 and I’m still very competitive. Yes, with new electronic I could get better time but I’m fine with what I have for now.

Even in 21.5, I ran the track rental car (TC3) and was able to get near the top lap time.

My point is I don't care what class is called stock. I don’t care to win or finish last as long as I have fun and improve myself and do not throw lot of money into this hobby
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:23 PM   #149
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The more I read about all this the more Im convinced Im better off spending my money on my motorcycle. At least I can go somewhere else on it.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:29 PM   #150
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So, 21.5 is the new stock?
yes.....


ok close the forum; we're done with 10pages in a matter of hours.
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