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Old 12-02-2016, 04:37 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
That's right, the Endurance events. Speaking of those: the issue seems to be the overwhelming different classes. Why not making some races equal to Le Mans with Pro10-Pro12 and TC being run at the same time depending on lap time? Stock preferably.

I have two 13.5 cars but would vote to get rid of them and just use 17.5.
I think a breakout lap time would need to come into play for a multiple class endourance race .but again this wouldn't do very well at events already being ran
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:06 PM   #62
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Usgt is the new stock. 17.5 Tc is the new super stock. Mod Tc is maybe strong than in the past 5 yrs.

Could wgt/r or gt body 17.5 take on the slow pan class? 17.5 or 13.5 1/12 as middle. 6.5 mod as mod?

Can we agree on 3 Tc and 3 pan? That could make things better...
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Old 12-03-2016, 07:39 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Usgt is the new stock. 17.5 Tc is the new super stock. Mod Tc is maybe strong than in the past 5 yrs.

Could wgt/r or gt body 17.5 take on the slow pan class? 17.5 or 13.5 1/12 as middle. 6.5 mod as mod?

Can we agree on 3 Tc and 3 pan? That could make things better...
*Raises hand* Clock will sort everyone out, no need to have pro-pro and semi-pro and almost-semi-pro and sub-pro...
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Old 12-03-2016, 11:46 AM   #64
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I think the discussion is taking a turn into the number of classes vs formats, but I think they are linked.

There can be many arguments as to why off-road is doing better than onroad at the moment, but I think one has to be simplicity of classes. Outside of major races (ROAR, Reedy, and a couple others) there are no "stock" classes at off-road events. Nitro has no "stock, northern does 1/8e or 4x4SCT. Even the 2wd classes rarely have stock and mod.

But off-road does have mor classes than onroad. The have 1/8e buggy and truggy, nitro buggy and truggy, 4x4SCT, Mod 1/10 2wd buggy, 4wd buggy, Stadium truck, and 2wd SCT. What they don't have are three or four sets of rules for the same chassis.

What you see the overwhelming majority of the time is Pro vs Sportsman and the occasional 40+ and/or novice classes.

Pro class: Anyone is is or ever had been sponsored by any company, at any level of sponsorship. Also bump those up that entered sportsman, but are running in the top 50% lap times of the pro class.

Sportsman class: Non sponsored average Joe drivers that might be decent, but not great drivers. Keeps the Sandbaggers out of just trying to win a trophy.

These classes are pretty much open mod. Only really separated by ability. Now you can say that having A-F mains would do the same for 6 drivers, but why not have 2 A-C mains. It doesn't increase length of day, and it allows for people to compete against those of similar driving ability with less intimidation. It also won't allow a person to dominate sportsman class and keep winning podium after podium. At some point, you are going to get good enough to be moved into the pro class.

What this allows in off-road is that "entry level" class that we seem to lack in onroad. If you think 17.5 is an "entry level" class your lying to yourself. Those cars are easily faster than some mod cars were in the brushed nimh days.

USVTA is a enigma when it comes to entry level. One hand says it's a great place to start if you've never run onroad, all the while the sponsored guys who drive $150 1% motors in their $1000+ chassis say it was never meant to be an entry level class.

And this is where onroad has too many classes that compete at large and even club level events. Too many "sponsored" drivers want that track time for themselvess and their company's and it discourages newer drivers from entering the class.

I remember a time when you wouldn't dare see a chassis factory sponsored driver running a "stock" class at a big event. You might see a motor sponsor only guy running, but that's it.

Also what happened to Novice? why is there really not one? Novice was "stock" but you were a new driver. And when you were good enough to move out, you didn't have to buy any new equipment since it was the same motor.

Now they are being told to start in USVTA or USGT. And instead of learning driving skills with other novices, they are learning how to get out of the way of (insert 50% sponsored driver name here) as he laps them for the 15th time and gets pissed when he gets bumped by the new driver.

So blending format and number of classes together, you see a lot of off-road guys running multiple classes at bigger events, but the cars are completely different. We don't have that luxury in onroad... or do we...

I keep seeing a lot of 13.5 needs go away as a filler class. I partially disagree. I believe 17.5 needs to go. 13.5 should be the pro level (pro as in similar to what is mentioned earlier) and 21.5 should be the sportsman level class. But wait what about USGT? Isn't it already 21.5. Yes, but it also already has its own series of races. But that doesn't mean you can't combine them at big events like the birds. Any existing GT or touring car body on TC tires and 21.5 motor. Mod isn't needed. No one really races mod on carpet in the US. At least not enough to take up time at a big event, and if you ran 13.5, you could get the guys up from 17.5 racing with the mod guys as the lap times are so close anyway. Thai would also greatly reduce the "motor war" that rages on. 13.5's would be just powerful enough that, on most carpet tracks, you wouldn't really be using 100% of the motor anyway. When this happens, it doesn't matter if you have that ultra hand tuned 1% of 1% motor that you risk cooking every run of your fan goes out.

But all this is just s pipe dream, as is changing formats. The current formats benifit the sponsors, not the drivers, the current classes and class rules benifit the sponsors, not the drivers. And as long as the major race organizations keep setting the class rules up in a way that drives competition among manufacturers vs drivers, and as long as manufacturers keep hand out sponsorships like candy, this hobby, onroad in particular with no real entry level class, will continue to spiral down until it is such a nich hobby, that the only events will be the "big" ones and local club racing will be a thing of the past.
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Old 12-03-2016, 01:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Usgt is the new stock. 17.5 Tc is the new super stock. Mod Tc is maybe strong than in the past 5 yrs.

Could wgt/r or gt body 17.5 take on the slow pan class? 17.5 or 13.5 1/12 as middle. 6.5 mod as mod?

Can we agree on 3 Tc and 3 pan? That could make things better...
This sounds like the most sound plan yet.....3 of each sounds good for larger national events.

Regional events work themselves out for the most part with whats raced in the area.
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Old 12-03-2016, 02:16 PM   #66
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VTA and USGT are literally the dumbest thing I could imagine being brought to a large national event. When I see people with brand new Xray's, Ax's, etc running this, you've lost the point of the class.
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Usgt is the new stock.
These 2 statements are diametrically opposed, and this difference is the reason why these threads get started, but the problem is never solved.

If USGT is the new stock, then that class is dead. USGT was never meant to replace stock. Making it the new stock means you'll start seeing bodies that sacrifice scale for handling, and that's why USGT drivers left stock TC in the first place.

As far as entry level classes are concerned, this is best done on the local level. Every track has a slightly different focus on what they race, so the entry level class will be different. For instance, 360v2 is a more competition level track, so an entry level class is going to be a little faster. Unlike Brownie's beach track, where the focus is on the fun side, and an entry level car can be a Tamiya TT-01.

There are too many differences in our sport. You'll never be able to get all of it together in one place.

3 12th scale classes? Really?
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Old 12-03-2016, 02:32 PM   #67
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I think he was referring to 3 classss of 2wd pan. A 1/10 and 2 1/12
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Old 12-04-2016, 03:34 AM   #68
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Jim... Usgt as new stock class is good for two reasons...

1. It's slower (but not slow... Could be slower)
2. People must buy things to run it... Thus prevents anyone you call out about running the class about being a sand bagger to have any excuse. it was premeditated

17.5 Tc with the "fall 2016" series of motors is now 13.5 speeds. It's just madness!!
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Old 12-04-2016, 05:53 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Jim... Usgt as new stock class is good for two reasons...

1. It's slower (but not slow... Could be slower)
2. People must buy things to run it... Thus prevents anyone you call out about running the class about being a sand bagger to have any excuse. it was premeditated

17.5 Tc with the "fall 2016" series of motors is now 13.5 speeds. It's just madness!!
Yep . And the envelope has just been opened. They will get faster, with a few of the new motors that will hit our hands by spring 17 . And usgt is actually still fast it just don't have the acceleration of the 17.5s
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:17 AM   #70
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I'm not following your second point about no excuses for being a sandbagger?
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:21 AM   #71
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ROAR needs to do to 17.5 what it did with 25.5, set a hard resistance value.
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:26 AM   #72
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ROAR needs to do to 17.5 what it did with 25.5, set a hard resistance value.
They have sat on it for over three years. I gave up holding my breath a long time ago. The same goes for 21.5.
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:55 AM   #73
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So at what point is there even a reason for having a motor limit? If "spec" motors are now getting to be as fast on the track and modified motors, why don't these professional drivers just run mod instead of running two or three spec classes.
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:56 AM   #74
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Because mod is too fast. That's the biggest problem. The full sponsored A main drivers are looking to have fun as much as us low to no skill guys.

The purpose of the separate classes is to establish a ladder system for racers to climb. You start in the slow class, and work your way up as far as you want to go. Because of the speeds and the additional cost racers aren't moving up that ladder. So you have what is supposed to be an entry level class become a full on competition class.
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:10 AM   #75
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Because mod is too fast. That's the biggest problem. The full sponsored A main drivers are looking to have fun as much as us low to no skill guys.

The purpose of the separate classes is to establish a ladder system for racers to climb. You start in the slow class, and work your way up as far as you want to go. Because of the speeds and the additional cost racers aren't moving up that ladder. So you have what is supposed to be an entry level class become a full on competition class.
Almost agree, except for the additional cost part. Mod is cheaper.
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