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Old 11-18-2016, 10:57 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by pgaert View Post
" The Cano loop amplifier must be located at the loop, just the same as the AMB balun transformer."

Are you saying that the black box where wire meets cable on the AMB loop has required electronics inside it?
Yes, there is a transformer inside the box. But I would use the word "electrical" rather than "electronic" to describe a transformer. It is a passive device.
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Old 11-18-2016, 12:10 PM   #122
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From my own experience, I'm going to term in unnecessary
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Old 11-18-2016, 07:51 PM   #123
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There is totally room for a "This is a driver development class. If you take this to seriously, you're going to be relegated to 'normal' race classes, at the discression of other drivers, or the race organizer."
After taking to a few tonight about this, class is not whats keeping some on my area from checking out the new place. It's time. If you run only 1 class, 3Qs and 1 heat race, it's only 24 minutes of track time. A two hour round trip drive. How long at track to run the 8-9 classes at tomorrow's event. How long between qualifying.
Having never been to a track or event, how does it usually work with 8-9 classes. I've loosely followed the thread for the track around here. 12-14-16hours for a big event. That's right there makes trying racing tough.
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Old 11-19-2016, 12:03 AM   #124
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There's a balance to be struck between "time between races" and "length of a race day."

If a race day ends up being 12 hours... yeah, there's something wrong there. Promoters want all the mains at the end, to keep the excitement to the end, and keep people ~there~.

There's a lot of ways of dealing with that.

And really, a "beginner class" is something to run on a non serious race day.

Distance from the track is something that's unsolveable. It makes track time precious. I won't drive out to joliet to run the carpet track out there. Nor will I do the same to run slot cars.

When I was playing tournement paintball, I'd drive 1-3 hours to have a day that lasted from 7am to 4pm. Which is only "ok" for someone serious into something.

it's to late, and i'm to tired to make much of a coherant reply.
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:27 AM   #125
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Billy Kelly, when it comes to people who have to drive a distance, that's absolutely a factor. My perspective, two different ways.

First, the "track time" argument isn't very balanced. If you play a round of golf, do you measure it based on how much "swing time" you get? A game of pool by "stick time"? A day at the strip measured by how long it takes you to get down the 1/4 mile? For the participant's perspective, if they're not looking at the race day as an overall experience you're not going to win vs.a movie of some such. I'd also say that the facility/area need to spend some time building community... when people go somewhere to hang out with friends, they don't measure their time as minutes of a specific activity. plus, your racer didn't count their practice time on a prepped track, and should spend more time driving during warm-up.

From a track's perspective, you work at this by making your program more efficient. And predictable.

First, at N-Control we've been getting a fair number of folks traveling to race from 2 or 3 hours away. We race on Sundays (because one of the world's finest offroad facilities is an hour north racing on Saturdays, and there is lots of crossover), so getting home in a timely manner is a huge concern. What I promise is that we're done at 6pm, and I adjust the race program from there. Confidence in ending time makes it much easier to travel to an event on a Sunday, because you know you won't be there until 9pm and home at midnight.

Second, run an efficient program. I've seen tracks fiddle around and take obscene amounts of time to get through racing. My preference is to run rounds efficiently, and _intentionally_ add any required time (for charging or getting lunch) between rounds. On road, especially nitro, is inherently slower than offroad, IMX... where I used to get a 5 minute qualifier done in an average of 8 minutes, I find that is more like 9 minutes and change for on road. Max time for a 9 race round should be 90 minutes. It takes about 2 minutes to resort, reprint, hang, and start the next round. If a round is less than an hour, start every round on the hour and break for whatever is left over in between.

So, if I have a 4 heat race day, I'll start every round at the top of the hour, run four rounds of qualifying (12, 1, 2, 3), mains at 4, and be done early with open track between rounds and after racing. 9 races per round, three quals (12, 1:30, 3), mains at 4:30. 12 races per round, we'll do two rounds of qualifying (12, 2), mains at 4 and wrap up at 6. Maybe spice up short days with triple or longer A's.

If there are other things a track can do to address these issues, post them up!
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:42 AM   #126
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I now find it ironic that length of a race day is an issue on this thread, when the whole purpose of this thread was adding another class. That new class is a guaranteed 35 minutes added to everybody's race day. Yet many on this thread resist going with a car that could run in an existing class.

Some of the stuff recommended is similar to what has been tried in the past and failed. A few have been horrible like the Tamiya mini cooper on the black CRC carpet. That junk spends more time on it's roof than on it's wheels and that's on medium grip grey carpet.

If you want to drive away your regular sedan guys who are 30 lbs overweight, make them marshal a mini cooper race. One may even have a heart attack.

The other issue for me is starting a class with cars and motors that have no value outside of that class. The reason why is that 1st year drivers sometimes have other parts of their lives other than RC. I personally can imagine being anywhere other than RC Madness on Black Friday, but new guys have family events like soccer and shopping.

When a spec class racer sees only 2 there people show up for the noob class, they either stop racing or do the math to see what it would take to move to a class where people show up. If everything they have is brushed, Nimh or 25C lipo, off brand receiver and all the spare tires are throw aways, then they leave and never come back or wait 4 years to come back. With a sensored brushless setup, even a Juststock esc, it works in USGT, Sedan, WGT-R 2wd stock buggy etc.

The other thing is brushed silver can motors. They are THE MOST EXPENSIVE motors you can run for a season and they have the most potential for cheating. This is from personal experience as a silver can cheater, not "theory".
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:11 AM   #127
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I now find it ironic that length of a race day is an issue on this thread, when the whole purpose of this thread was adding another class. That new class is a guaranteed 35 minutes added to everybody's race day. Yet many on this thread resist going with a car that could run in an existing class.

Some of the stuff recommended is similar to what has been tried in the past and failed. A few have been horrible like the Tamiya mini cooper on the black CRC carpet. That junk spends more time on it's roof than on it's wheels and that's on medium grip grey carpet.

If you want to drive away your regular sedan guys who are 30 lbs overweight, make them marshal a mini cooper race. One may even have a heart attack.

The other issue for me is starting a class with cars and motors that have no value outside of that class. The reason why is that 1st year drivers sometimes have other parts of their lives other than RC. I personally can imagine being anywhere other than RC Madness on Black Friday, but new guys have family events like soccer and shopping.

When a spec class racer sees only 2 there people show up for the noob class, they either stop racing or do the math to see what it would take to move to a class where people show up. If everything they have is brushed, Nimh or 25C lipo, off brand receiver and all the spare tires are throw aways, then they leave and never come back or wait 4 years to come back. With a sensored brushless setup, even a Juststock esc, it works in USGT, Sedan, WGT-R 2wd stock buggy etc.

The other thing is brushed silver can motors. They are THE MOST EXPENSIVE motors you can run for a season and they have the most potential for cheating. This is from personal experience as a silver can cheater, not "theory".
The original point of the thread was from a new track that opened in the Chicagoland area. They seem interested in getting new people involved. Of course the "what class to run" debate happened. My view has always been how to get people, like myself, to the track. Not as concerned with what class, just getting them to the track. To try running s structured layout. Or as with most that I know, driving with other cars. My first and only race in September was the first time I'd ever run with other touring cars. Anywhere.
The time factor is always a concern. I understand the travel time. It's not terrible but makes the idea of practice almost impossible for most.
I'd never suggest adding a class to an event just for new or new to racing drivers. It would need to be a stand alone thing. So like today the new place, Windy City RC track, had an event. Expecting 90+. No way would I think to suggest adding a "rookie class" today. But take tomorrow morning. All the regular touring cars drivers will have run today, so that could be a day or morning for the new people.
For some the track time will never add up. I loosely follow the much closer track to me, and it's a regular complaint.
My point has always been that tracks need to find ways to bring in the outsiders without disturbing the regulars. The days of buying a car to run at local track are gone. Most that buy an RC don't even know racing side exists.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:34 AM   #128
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One of the things that has really surprised me is just how fit, on average, the regular sedan guys at my track are.

It seems obvious that no one solution will be best for everyone, or best everywhere. It is not guaranteed that a new car/class adds time to the race day, any more than it's guaranteed that adding time to a race day would be a bad thing at every track.

What is clear, to me at least, is that a set of available classes that require either A) entry cost of $700+ for new equipment or B) enough knowledge to find decent used equipment, is NOT a good way to recruit new people to race in the vast majority of locations. Likewise, always forcing raw novice drivers to run in a heat with highly experienced racers is most likely to demoralize the newbies.

Your observation about equipment that can be used in a mainline class is a good one, and that's the thought behind the budget TC class I'll be trying. On the other hand, many new racers (especially kids) would benefit more from a car they can also operate at home.... which will not be something that can run in USGT or touring.

There isn't a one size fits all solution here.
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Old 11-19-2016, 12:29 PM   #129
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Your observation about equipment that can be used in a mainline class is a good one, and that's the thought behind the budget TC class I'll be trying. On the other hand, many new racers (especially kids) would benefit more from a car they can also operate at home.... which will not be something that can run in USGT or touring.

There isn't a one size fits all solution here.

Agree that there is no one single solution. It would need to be on a local scale. Touring cars are great ways to learn driving. And most usually have more pavement then dirt avaliable for driving. The hard part is changing the mindset about touring cars being fragil. That they can only run on perfectly prepped surfaces. I've run an XRay T4 for 2 years, along with a number of others, both belt and shaft, with limited issues.
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Old 11-19-2016, 01:57 PM   #130
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Ok bill, Given what you just said I have a car in mind. I fear it might be discontinued soon though. It's the Losi 1/14 Focus rally car. I've driven one on carpet and I thought it was more predictable to drive than the Vaterra sedans and the cheapo radio wasn't terrible to drive. Unfortunately I only see the car with a desert truck body at Horizon. It drives way better than a Tamiya mini cooper bone stock right out of the box. Even the tires are ok on carpet, at least on the rally version. I would allow shock limiters and maybe a cheap lipo, but nothing else.

The stock tires were a little more than most if I remember right, so either a cheap unbranded sedan tire would have to be offered at some point or Ride USGT tires that are a little cheaper than the Losi rally tires.

As mentioned above, only the spectrum receiver would be usable in any traditional class.
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Old 11-19-2016, 02:10 PM   #131
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Ok bill, Given what you just said I have a car in mind. I fear it might be discontinued soon though. It's the Losi 1/14 Focus rally car. I've driven one on carpet and I thought it was more predictable to drive than the Vaterra sedans and the cheapo radio wasn't terrible to drive. Unfortunately I only see the car with a desert truck body at Horizon. It drives way better than a Tamiya mini cooper bone stock right out of the box. Even the tires are ok on carpet, at least on the rally version. I would allow shock limiters and maybe a cheap lipo, but nothing else.

The stock tires were a little more than most if I remember right, so either a cheap unbranded sedan tire would have to be offered at some point or Ride USGT tires that are a little cheaper than the Losi rally tires.

As mentioned above, only the spectrum receiver would be usable in any

traditional class.

I've got the Kemora when it was a Vaterra. Losi brought it back as the Rally. Great little vehicle. Worked as a road car and could actually jumped decent. They were snow jumps.
Only ran it on 2s lipo. Probably too fast for most. Maybe on a Nimh battery. I don't think I tried TC tires. But I can. Mines sitting on shelf in front of me.

I trying a set of worn TC slicks now. They fit. I should have a full set somewhere.

Last edited by Billy Kelly; 11-19-2016 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:00 AM   #132
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As I mentioned in my first post to this thread, one of my intended low-cost classes was going to use the Losi Mini Rally (formerly Vaterra Kemora). It has been discontinued. I'm going to try broadening that idea to all four Losi Minis. TC tires bolt straight on any of them.

To make the Mini Rally a decent on road car, remove the hard plastics from the body, 70 or 80 wt in the shocks, 3/16"lengths of fuel tubing inside the cups on both ends of the front drive shafts, 2S lipo, turn steering way down. On a prepped track, the car traction rolls like crazy with the rear spoiler, but is eft with a mall tendency to spin out instead without it.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:24 AM   #133
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Sounds like a plan.

Also, the traxxas 1/16 rally sold well locally, maybe we could figure something out for them.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:26 AM   #134
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Mini and micro cars are useless IMHO. Dont get me wrong, I have a couple of them for around the house and family and friends kids, but at a groomed racetrack they are useless.

Like I said earlier, the key is not to make it cheaper but to justify the money spent. Get rid of the attitudes and elitist mentality. If a "pro" driver has a problem with a new driver on track he/she needs to removed or penalized. Period. Everybody has been there at one point. Whether it be someone new to R/C, an experienced driver at a new track, or an off-road guy breaking into the on-road thing. We need to embrace anyone "new" in this hobby.

Buying cheap cars and minis that only run at one track once in a while when turnout is unpredictable is a waste of money and sure to chase people away. While a 17.5TC is one of the fastest classes around and probably one of the hardest to be competitive in, it's also guaranteed to run at just about every on-road track in the US. Its definitely more valuable because it can be raced everywhere. For a small investment (comparatively) you can buy a second motor, set of tires and body and now your 17.5 TC is a USGT car. Another body/motor/tires set and you have a VTA car. Now your one car that cost you a lot of money can be raced at any track any time no matter what classes are running.

I always have a USGT set-up in my pit bag so I can convert either my 17.5 car or my VTA car at the drop of a hat. I also have a spare 17.5 sitting around so I can change my 1/12th car from 13.5 to 17.5 depending on turn out. Between 3 cars i am GUARANTEED to run at least 2 classes at any track across the US. May not sound like a great plan until you realize I can throw two bags in my truck and race on road anywhere in the US. Going away to Uncle Joes for thanksgiving weekend? Take your cars and go run some on road. Take Uncle Joe's kids, maybe you just brought a new hobbyist in? You just cant do that with a Losi RTR mini car.


The problem is not the hobby, or the classes, or the tracks, or the tires, or motor wars, it's the fast guys. It's the elitists. It's the "pros" that think that decency and courtesy is optional
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:42 AM   #135
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You're right and agreed with you, the only thing I want to mention is the stepping stone. The Slash was a stepping stone for off road racing, for on road racing there isn't something like that. You said 17.5, USGT and VTA, none of them have available RTR cars. I think that's a major setback.
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