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Old 11-17-2016, 04:45 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by longuylander View Post
Qatmix; what trucks are used?


I'd also be interested in looking into why box-stock classes die off. Is it because people move on to other classes, or because too many people start pushing the rules, or just because those who first raced that class lose interest?
It's been because the classes didn't stay stock. Every darn time. Sure there's always a few other reasons, depending on your location, but that's the key one that pops up every time.

Slash and Touring car are the best examples. Stock slash and the stock RS4's for parking lot racing were fun. Then people decided to "include" other RTR's like the SC10, or carbon'd up race ready touring cars.

Then things just escalate, and now we're running bastard parking lot touring cars on carpet instead of pan cars. Parking lot racing died as quickly as it was born.

Yes, you should be able to run a RTR Blitz in a stock Slash class. But it's a really bad idea.

Yes, if you're nuking the cheapo $20 RTR brushed motors every other month it would be cheaper to allow brushless motors. But the end effect is it's still going to kill that entry level class.

Does it stink in some ways to keep a stock RTR class box stock? Yes, every RTR has issues, but once you open any kind of motor/battery floodgates, it's all over for box stock classes.

Another thing to mull over: Sure allowing more expensive motors and servos into a RTR class will make it cheaper in the long run, but the point is NEVER "to be cheaper in the long run", entry level classes are all about entry cost only. When you get sick of nuking brushed motors, move on to a 17.5 class or something, you're not a beginner anymore. ( the fast guys want to keep cherry picking the RTR class, but don't want to replace the motor every week, because they know how to get the most power from that motor, thus nuking it every week. I say: Tough, move on, gear down, or pay the price)

Beginners never care about the long run costs. They'll buy and throw away 3 sport radios long before they ever consider a high end Futaba or Airtronics M12.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:26 AM   #77
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I ran an offroad facility with both 1/8th and1/10th tracks through the times when a) Losi came out with the first actual race-capabe RTR 1/8th buggies and b) Traxxas launched the Slash. Anyone who thinks cost (and ease) of entering the hobby doesn't matter to new racer recruitment is nuts, IMO.

I've recently opened an onroad facility,and this question of cheap entry-level has been on my mind. My track is in a rural location near a major metro... and if you think your racers won't pay $700 to get started, meet my local folk. Here are the things I'll be trying.

First I have a bunch of track transponders. It's unfortunate that the old rechargeable transponders are no longer available, they're great. I've freshed the batteries in most of mine, and converted a couple to plug-in. Of all the things you must buy to race, that particular $100 is the most difficult to swallow.

Losi Mini Class. Was going to be specifically the Mini Rally, but Losi discontinued it... the car was perfect, IMO. I saw someone dismiss the minis, and that's the biggest challenge I've found. New racers are happy to race these and have fun doing it, but the experienced hands are dismissive. One of the major challenges faced by novice drivers is that on road cars tend to be quite fragile... if you bang them into the boards, as novice drivers inevitably will, they'll tend to break something. I have seen that discourage several people in the last couple of months alone. The Minis are built to race on dirt, street, wherever, and they are super durable. This is also a class you can race with very little maintenance or adjustment, since the cars don't have many adjustments. With very minor changes allowed, all four Losi Minis are fun to drive, a blast to race, inexpensive, and extremely durable. Ready to race cost 250-300 excluding transponder.

Budget Touring. The second inexpensive class we'll be building. Instead of specing a single chassis or RTR, we'll be limiting chassis choices based on current retail price. Spec ESC and motor. Ready to race cost 350-400, plus transponder if you want a personal. You can certainly take this car into one of the mainline classes when you want to.

Will they work? I don't know. I do wish more racers would consider the broader perspective of the community... and especially the need for that community to have a steady flow of new blood.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:32 AM   #78
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I wish this forum had likes. I'd like that post, and billy kelly's. Nice to see someone who's "actually done it" chime in.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:30 AM   #79
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I've been showing some interest in doing some carpet racing this year. Normally I race off-road so I have some of the electronics but would need a new car.

I asked my shop about the Legends class which they do for both oval and road course. What is annoying (to me anyway) is that they spec brushless electronics and a 1s lipo which really raises the entry cost. $100 for the car + $95 for the motor/esc combo + $50 for the battery + $25 for a servo and I'm at a minimum of $300 after taxes. They could just go with cheaper brushed electronics which would cost just over $30 for a motor and esc and run a cheap 2s lipo (or 6 cell nihm). $300 entry vs $150 is a lot to me.

They are also trying to get a Tamiya Porsche Cup class going with a spec TA02SW chassis, only allowing bearings. There is a spec battery pack as well. The entry point is really cheap at about $200 for the kit and a battery but I fear that nobody is going to want to buy a Tamiya kit and race such a basic car. So far nobody has bought a car.

So I sit on the sidelines wanting a true, low cost option to get my feet wet.
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Old 11-17-2016, 08:00 AM   #80
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I've been showing some interest in doing some carpet racing this year. Normally I race off-road so I have some of the electronics but would need a new car.

I asked my shop about the Legends class which they do for both oval and road course. What is annoying (to me anyway) is that they spec brushless electronics and a 1s lipo which really raises the entry cost. $100 for the car + $95 for the motor/esc combo + $50 for the battery + $25 for a servo and I'm at a minimum of $300 after taxes. They could just go with cheaper brushed electronics which would cost just over $30 for a motor and esc and run a cheap 2s lipo (or 6 cell nihm). $300 entry vs $150 is a lot to me.

They are also trying to get a Tamiya Porsche Cup class going with a spec TA02SW chassis, only allowing bearings. There is a spec battery pack as well. The entry point is really cheap at about $200 for the kit and a battery but I fear that nobody is going to want to buy a Tamiya kit and race such a basic car. So far nobody has bought a car.

So I sit on the sidelines wanting a true, low cost option to get my feet wet.
Hi Ryan,

We haven't run our Breakout class in a while since participation in the other classes has picked up. That would be one option, if we can find another driver to run with us. In the past I always brought two loaner cars with me to guarantee we would have enough drivers, but unfortunately there isn't enough room in my new real car to transport them. But I still have the stuff, and I'm sure we can arrange to get something over to you if you want to use it (especially since I'm in Olathe).

I also have an old 1/12 scale chassis that you could use, if that appeals to you. We have drivers ranging from newbie to very experienced running 1/12, so you'd probably find someone to race with.

PM me if any of this sounds interesting.
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Old 11-17-2016, 08:00 AM   #81
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Loaners (cheap RTRs bought second hand for example, racer's old rides, whatever...) and handout brushed combo. Have a day in the week dedicated solely to noobs, most laps win or so.

You want to make them hooked with the least money possible, the long-term doesn't mean anything. Transponders aren't needed, 4 cars in the track at a time (you don't want a banger class), other guys count the laps. Teach them. Make them feel welcomed and don't talk about buying this or that to have a good time on the track. It could be a board powered by the junkiest electronics ever, it's about awakening the inner racer within. Not everyone is a potential racer but if you keep everyone away from trying, RC racing looses as a whole.

Also I think having the car at the shop is a bad thing, how many the shop will stock? Will it sell? How about parts support?
Better to offer their services to build a HK TD10 or whatever is cheap. Offer a package with track time bundled in.
Everyone wants cheap thrills, some will stay.
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Old 11-17-2016, 08:37 AM   #82
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I just really started running TC his year and I can say it is MUCH cheaper than running 8th scale. Used chassis,couple batteries, 17.5, and we tend to run mostly 28 or 32 tires. I am having a blast with the class and i is much easier on the wallet.

hobby king now sells the bt-4 for 99$ as a rolling chassis, we had a guy out there with one last race that finished 3rd his 1st time running it in vta. Budget racing is certainly possible.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:06 AM   #83
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Loaners *snip* Transponders aren't needed, 4 cars in the track at a time (you don't want a banger class), other guys count the laps. Teach them. Make them feel welcomed and don't talk about buying this or that to have a good time on the track.
I like this. And it ~forces~ interaction, and participation. Friends will be made.

Quote:
Also I think having the car at the shop is a bad thing, how many the shop will stock? Will it sell? How about parts support?
Better to offer their services to build a HK TD10 or whatever is cheap. Offer a package with track time bundled in.
Everyone wants cheap thrills, some will stay.
It's never bad for the shop to have ~something to sell~. Provided the supply chain is there. M05, that's easy. TD10, that's hard.

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I just really started running TC his year and I can say it is MUCH cheaper than running 8th scale.
Bigger is almost never cheaper. :-)

Quote:
hobby king now sells the bt-4 for 99$ as a rolling chassis, we had a guy out there with one last race that finished 3rd his 1st time running it in vta. Budget racing is certainly possible.
It is, and if you've got experience, you can make budget-y decisions. A new person isn't going to be armed with that. I am coming in with two known good chargers, a ROAR approved 4000mah 2s pack, and I was able to make good decisions on the chassis and motor setup. (I got a clearance motor and esc from tower, chassis and tries I bought locally) Not counting paint, I'm going to have a running car for less than $400.

I can't turn to my coworker and have them do that.

I suppose I'm trying to disconnect the builder from the driver.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:12 AM   #84
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So is the RJ Speed pan car that bad of a car? I mean, you can get into one of those for really cheap, even if you had nothing. Tamiya has the TT02 line of touring cars with some right at the $100-$110 mark. If everyone has the same car it doesn't really matter if they suck right? Everyone deals with the same handling issues/flaws?
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:13 AM   #85
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I would have to argue the concept of not counting laps. If you want to get people hooked through loaner cars, etc, at least some people will need the data from actual counted laps. See that improvement of 0.2 a lap average from last week, and besting your own hot lap by 0.263, and losing to the same guy but you were 0.740 seconds closer than last time.

If someone ISN'T interested in tracking this sort of thing IMX they are much less likely to become a regular.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:15 AM   #86
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"If everyone has the same car it doesn't really matter if they suck right?" Do they suck because they're slow, because they're simple, or because they break? In the first two cases, if you can get your regulars on board -- because attracting new racers is good for all, you'll refrain from talking down about the car and class -- they're not a problem. Breakage is one of the biggest enemies of moving people from "try it" to regular racer.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:19 AM   #87
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So is the RJ Speed pan car that bad of a car? I mean, you can get into one of those for really cheap, even if you had nothing... Everyone deals with the same handling issues/flaws?
That depends on which car. RJ Speed has a true "pan" car, with a flat fiberglass chassis, and this would probably be a good choice since it is pretty easy to make it handle well enough to not confuse a beginner. If you are referring to the Legends-style cars, which don't have a flat pan, then I wouldn't suggest them. While I think they are a ton of fun for an experienced driver on an oval, the handling is not very predictable due to the limited/non-existent rear suspension-- especially if they need to handle well in both directions.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:26 AM   #88
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[QUOTE=Qatmix;14738284]It's the TT01E Hahn Man Racing truck.

Oh right, you mentioned that. I forgot and was thinking like the TA02T or even sillier, things like the old Blackfoot or Dual Hunter. That would be a crazy class.

I did have another thought about trying to keep a stock class even. I absolutely agree that if people are blowing up motors every week, then they're doing it wrong and should gear down or move on. But I also thought of a weight penalty system like used in real racing. If one car is dominant over the field, force that car to have weight added to it to slow it down. The driver can either deal with the penalty or move on to another class. If the driver stays in the class and the majority of other drivers become more competitive, then that weight may be removed.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:34 AM   #89
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I also love the idea of a TA02SW Porsche Cup, as I am a huge fan of that chassis. Even if it's barely adjustable, it'll put everybody at the same disadvantage. Don't allow for upgrading the driveshaft or the motor mount or adding turnbuckles, or any other known weakness of the chassis. Drivers will have to learn to manage the restrictions the equipment places on them and become better drivers (which is partially what this type of class should do). It'll look way cool too, seeing a bunch of Porsches racing around.
On the contrary, the same could be done with TT01/02 spec classes, and be a little cheaper.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:51 AM   #90
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My local track has started a "new to racing" class with the Vaterra V100. For an entry price point of only $250, it comes completly ready to run, with a battery and a multi-chemistry peak charger, as well as a spektrum radio, and brushed motor / esc combo.

The class allows only genuine Vaterra brand upgrades (shocks, springs, pivot balls, pinions, spurs), with exception for the tires and bodies, for which they allow USGT bodies and tires. This really helps prevent the "pay to win" that seems to overtake every class of racing, as the upgrade options from vaterra are limited, and only offer minor tuning and durability upgrades, as opposed to power gains or weight shedding. The ONLY means of power gains comes from gear ratio tuning, which is an important skill to learn for RC, and teaches the balance between performance and motor longevity.

The motor is a closed end bell brushed motor, and replacements cost $20. While its certainly not the fastest around the track, its plenty fast enough to require throttle & brake control to get it around the track smoothly.

The only open option right now is battery choice, but the track is deciding on a spec lipo battery to use going forward, and will maintain a strict sub $40 price point. The charger that comes with the car is multi-chemistry, and can charge lipo batteries, so an upgrade isn't a requirement.

its has taken a bit of time, but is starting to show some progress, and attracting enough people to hold weekly club races.

While the chassis isn't as adjustable as a typical touring chassis, it does have some points of adjustment, and is a 1/10 scale 190mm 4WD chassis, so moving from this to a more standard touring chassis for USGT racing is less dramatic a change in driving style than a mini or pan car for example.

the advantage to this entry point, is not only the similarity of driving style, but that the radio, receiver, tires, body, and charger are all upwards compatible for other racing classes like USGT. Even the chassis - while not nearly as adjustable as a spec touring chassis, can be competitive in USGT with a skilled driver behind the wheel, and a 21.5 brushless powerplant.

Several of the local Vaterra guys have swapped the brushed motors for 21.5 brushless, and turned competitive laps in the USGT class using the V100 chassis. One was even able to turn USGT pace lap times on the stock brushed motor, showing everyone how much driving skill and practice can really impact your times.

im not saying this is thee solution to entry level racing, but it is showing signs of success locally.
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