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Old 11-16-2016, 09:50 PM   #61
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Trying to get the cost down in RC with 1/18 vehicles is like trying to start a flag football league where touchdowns are worth 15 points. Or like starting a basketball league where the rims are hula hoops and a basket is worth 7 points. It creates an artificial reality.

If a kid enjoys the 1/18 dromida and wishes to race with actual competition at a local track, they will have been setup to fail because they don't have the right equipment and don't know how to operate during an actual qualifier where they are racing the clock and not each other. Likewise, if a kid was used to scoring 70 points in their version of a basketball game, by standing under the rim and getting 7 points each time it went through a hula hoop..... Their experience of playing a pickup game at the YMCA with former highschool and college players is going to be a very rude awakening.

This hobby/sport requires money and certain resources. We don't see would-be go kart racers bringing Barbie powerwheels to the track, expecting to race for the first time. If someone is having a hard time deciding between spending money for a race day and a transponder, or making a mortgage payment on their house.....then RC racing is probably something they are not ready for.
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:22 PM   #62
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My point is that I don't believe lowering costs will entice new racers. It has already been proven that the slash and the tt02 are viable low cost options. Even though you may not agree with this, the fact remains that a slash can be picked up at a local Best buy and there are currently 20 different models of the tt01 and tt02 for sale.

Too many people can't afford to spend a few hundred dollars on a hobby these days. This is the reality of our world. Speak to your local congressman if you feel that the average Joe should not have to put 90% of their earnings towards food and shelter. Too many people don't have the patience to want to learn how to improve - it is the same reason many people don't exercise or install solar panels on their roof. The world of today wants instant gratification. Getting beaten at races and taking time to wrench a car is not something that the mainstream is interested in. They want to go fast and feel like winners right away. This is why Xbox is so popular.
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:41 PM   #63
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My point is that I don't believe lowering costs will entice new racers. It has already been proven that the slash and the tt02 are viable low cost options. Even though you may not agree with this, the fact remains that a slash can be picked up at a local Best buy and there are currently 20 different models of the tt01 and tt02 for sale.

Too many people can't afford to spend a few hundred dollars on a hobby these days. This is the reality of our world. Speak to your local congressman if you feel that the average Joe should not have to put 90% of their earnings towards food and shelter. Too many people don't have the patience to want to learn how to improve - it is the same reason many people don't exercise or install solar panels on their roof. The world of today wants instant gratification. Getting beaten at races and taking time to wrench a car is not something that the mainstream is interested in. They want to go fast and feel like winners right away. This is why Xbox is so popular.
I don't think there's much point in trying to force a class to be much cheaper than a simple stock TC4 VTA/USGT setup. As you say, there's a limit to how far you can push it before it's not worth running. However, every time there's an attempt to start a value class (such as VTA), eventually the serious guys join in and start spending big bucks, spoiling it for the guys trying to race on a modest budget. I'm more interested in preventing pay-to-win mindsets, than lowering the minimum requirements to enter. Retaining membership is an easier problem to solve than enticing brand new racers.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:14 PM   #64
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Then make the class, hopefully an existing class as we have too many, cost controlled.

Set limits on motor and battery prices, use a spec tire. Tech inspection is a copy of the receipts.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:36 PM   #65
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Trying to get the cost down in RC with 1/18 vehicles is like trying to start a flag football league where touchdowns are worth 15 points. Or like starting a basketball league where the rims are hula hoops and a basket is worth 7 points. It creates an artificial reality. *snip* This is why Xbox is so popular.
My first instinct is to just say you're wrong and move on. There have been a lot of good arguments put up in this thread, and a lot of good ideas. You seem to have missed them all.

You've said nothing about why 1/18 is any different from running 1/12, 1/10, 1/8, or 1/5 scale. The "value" of a score, has no relation to it's usefulness as a scoring system. It could be 100points. If each score is 100 points, it's just what it is. It's only as artificial as the fact that the road is carpet, and made of pvc walls. If you're going to use analogies, make them good.

A 1/18th scale car, has no relation to the fact it's a (I'm going to use a word here you're likely to interpret) competent car, that listens to the drivers inputs, and can be driven around a course.

I have 1/36, 1/28, 1/24, and 1/14 scale stuff in my collection. I'd be happy to race all of them in a group, so long as I had someone to race with. Some of them are even pretty quick. A modified 130 size motor in a 1/28 scale car makes for a very exciting drive. .... One that was fun on a 1/10 scale track, until I got to the back stretch. "It's 1/18th so it's crap" is just a silly argument.

Being smaller and lighter, 1/18th has the advantage of less mass. That makes them less likely to break at the driving of ham fisted noobs. I "very nearly" can't break my 1/24 SCT. This is why miniquads became so popular, and why things like the TinyWhoop have gone bonkers in the market. Being smaller, also means people are more likely to find decent places to run them that's ~not~ the track.

Playing against pros in a team sport, is, in fact, a lot of fun. And not a rude awakening. It's something I've done as a paintball player. I can't see how that analogy has anything to do with racing. But.. since we're on that tack, I've done individual sports, with high level ameaturs (AKA, playing was zero cost for them.) as well. At the velodrome, on bicycles. It's awe inspiring to watch a guy crank up to 1500 watts and accelerate like you're standing still at 17mph. Being out there with the better people helped me. If your kid isn't prepared to be new at something, and is going to be hurt by losing, that's a failure of the parent. Then again, there's a lot of adults who can't handle it. That's not a problem of the format. You really latched onto this being about kids, this is about "being able to get someone in the door" and get them that first taste of racing.

While people might not take powerwheels to the gokart track, there is a power wheels racing series, and it's ~quite serious~ racing. http://www.powerracingseries.org/ It was birthed at my local hackerspace a few years ago, and it's grown to a national series. And the carts are cheaper than a good touring car.

The Slash seems reasonable. The TT02, isn't, at least at the retail level. And I am ~also~ concerned about the local shops getting money to keep going. That's important to me. It should be important to you too.

You seem to have some real issues with people and money. Even the people I know who can drop $2000 and not feel it, won't throw $600 to "see if they like" something.

Discounting gamers wanting to improve, is just ignorance. Some of the most dedicated nutjobs i know, are gamers. You don't get insane fast twitch skills without practice. Thinking that they're "just winners right away" shows you've got almost no idea what goes on in gaming.

--------------------------------------

So.. Good arguments:

#1. Cheap, box stock racing has been done before, and it died off. (This is one I'd like to explore more.)

#2. There are some "ok" options, they just aren't on-road.

#3. M05

#4. Stuff that isn't 1/10 scale.

Is what I want realistic? Eh, maybe not. But I thought I might ask the people who'd know better.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:43 PM   #66
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Forget about spending money to get it "started", in reality you need to spend a lot upfront and not even knowing you're going to like this hobby or not, unlike a PS4 you cannot test this in a mall.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:58 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigaplex View Post
I'm more interested in preventing pay-to-win mindsets, than lowering the minimum requirements to enter. Retaining membership is an easier problem to solve than enticing brand new racers.
Churn is bad. So is a lack up new player uptake.

Suddenly i'm interested in how often new people show up to tracks. While churn is bad, "low new signups" is worse. HAM is dieing due to this. Paintball survives based on a new player fast progression system. A typical player is in, and either is out, or has become someone like me, in 4 years.

Quote:
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Then make the class, hopefully an existing class as we have too many, cost controlled.

Set limits on motor and battery prices, use a spec tire. Tech inspection is a copy of the receipts.
Having to carry documentation on your car. That would be a pain. Still, it's an idea.

Quote:
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Forget about spending money to get it "started", in reality you need to spend a lot upfront and not even knowing you're going to like this hobby or not, unlike a PS4 you cannot test this in a mall.
Funnily enough, you can, in a lot of expensive hobbies, do just that. Wanna go skiing? $20-40 and they'll rent you the gear for the day. Wanna try slot cars? $15 for the day. Wanna play paintball? it's $10 or $15 for rental gear. How about Scuba Diving? You can rent that too. How about going shooting, $20-40 per gun, and you've got a toy to use on the range. Heck, if you want to fly a plane you can do that for $130. Rock climbing, I can rent that as well. Even racing is more accessible, I can head down to one of the four local cart tracks and run for all evening for $120. For the cost of getting into VTA, I can run most of a race season at K1.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:25 AM   #68
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Churn is bad. So is a lack up new player uptake.

Suddenly i'm interested in how often new people show up to tracks. While churn is bad, "low new signups" is worse. HAM is dieing due to this. Paintball survives based on a new player fast progression system. A typical player is in, and either is out, or has become someone like me, in 4 years.
Lack of uptake is definitely a problem, but it's very hard to address. If you just lower the entry costs without some introductory program, they're likely to churn very quickly. I've seen a guy years ago give a complete RTR setup to a beginner, for free, who only showed up to a couple of meets before giving up. He didn't realise how difficult it was to learn to drive fast, and there weren't many others at his skill level to compete against.

I only started racing again this year after a long hiatus, and at my local track I think I've only seen a couple of new faces. None of them have stuck around.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:50 AM   #69
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Lack of uptake is definitely a problem, but it's very hard to address.
At the velodrome, they have rider development Mondays and Tuesdays. You're welcome to bring your own bike, but they also have a bunch of rental bikes. (I went there for two years before I bought my track bike.)

Rider development has structured practice, some coaching, and in the end of the night, some mock racing.

It's really low key, very hard, and turns out people who aren't dangerous to ride with on the velodrome.

At paintball fields they have rental only groups.

At the slot car track, they have rental only groups as well.

Lowered costs might have churn, but with the side effect of feeding money into the pro shop... So there's at least some utility to it.

I'm not sure how it all relates. :-) But.. it's something.
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:15 AM   #70
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"How cheap can it be done? Lets get new drivers hooked."

Run what you brung class. My first race in the 80s was basically run what you brung... and there were 180 drivers who showed up and had fun in a parking lot lap times scored by hand count.



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Old 11-17-2016, 02:22 AM   #71
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In the U.K. The Tamiya Truck class seems to be becoming very popular.

Stock kit, esc and motor. You are allowed bearings and that's it.

Look great, cheap, drive well, have to run the Tamiya tyre (which lasts for ages) gearing options are limited.

They sell out as soon as they arrive in the shops here.
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Old 11-17-2016, 02:47 AM   #72
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Qatmix; what trucks are used?


I'd also be interested in looking into why box-stock classes die off. Is it because people move on to other classes, or because too many people start pushing the rules, or just because those who first raced that class lose interest?
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Old 11-17-2016, 03:22 AM   #73
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here is the 1/18 for fun group I've run with.

Dromida touring cars

https://youtu.be/QiyeaKuaoZw

It's a for fun free group. Buy a car come and drive. Just 5 lap sprints. If there are enuff we spit the trucks into 1 group. Touring/rally in the other. It's a simple way to get people to give it a try. If they don't like it. They have a vehicle that can be used away from track.

Here the truck group. Ages range from around 10 to mid 60's.

https://youtu.be/ItWT9Kvok00


4 of us that have been running 1/18 started running 1/10 this year.

https://youtu.be/OP87-hwq2ic
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Old 11-17-2016, 03:57 AM   #74
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Qatmix; what trucks are used?


I'd also be interested in looking into why box-stock classes die off. Is it because people move on to other classes, or because too many people start pushing the rules, or just because those who first raced that class lose interest?
It's the TT01E Hahn Man Racing truck.

http://www.thercracer.com/2016/06/58...n-tgs-man.html
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Old 11-17-2016, 04:02 AM   #75
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In the U.K. The Tamiya Truck class seems to be becoming very popular.

Stock kit, esc and motor. You are allowed bearings and that's it.

Look great, cheap, drive well, have to run the Tamiya tyre (which lasts for ages) gearing options are limited.

They sell out as soon as they arrive in the shops here.
I've seen videos of how those things bounce. Your definition of 'drives well' is a bit different than what I'm used to.
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