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Old 11-30-2016, 05:19 AM   #226
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This happens here too, hence the proposed motor rule changes to start to address that scenario, but that in itself is another can of worms...

[...]

Our club is exploring a couple of options, both with control motor, control fdr, control tires, inexpensive chassis & electrics to keep the costs down, yet maintain a healthy interest for new comers to get into, and keep coming back for more racing.
This is the only way.

Problem is, seasoned racers will resist because they have invested heavily in their gear to win. If you can get them on board, you're doing well. At our club, the last meeting rejected all the spec propositions.

What I took away form that was that soon we'll have to spec the chassis as well since the introduction of the Awesomatix that can change top deck.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:43 AM   #227
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Nikko F1's ain't bad, but I'd prefer these:
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Old 11-30-2016, 03:25 PM   #228
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Problem is, seasoned racers will resist because they have invested heavily in their gear to win. If you can get them on board, you're doing well. At our club, the last meeting rejected all the spec propositions.
And that's understandable too, if I was in a situation to invest heavily I would be doing the same.
The aim is to also provide for the season racers, and offer a simple entry level format that those new to racing can quickly & easily get their hands on without having to worry about the more technical stuff.

Ideally we'll like to encourage kids, and their parents to participate, not just car driving, but to eventually help other newcomers, which helps to achieve a more stronger sense of belonging within the club, and in a social circle.

Not so long ago, our club hosted a state event, and one of the many volunteers was a Fellow, who along with his daughter, had only started racing a few weeks beforehand, and also provided us with equipment to help the event volunteers with communication.

Working out an entry, and progression path within racing is a critical is crucial to any clubs existence, the hard part is trying to decipher, & decide which way the path should go.
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:28 PM   #229
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And that's understandable too, if I was in a situation to invest heavily I would be doing the same.
The aim is to also provide for the season racers, and offer a simple entry level format that those new to racing can quickly & easily get their hands on without having to worry about the more technical stuff.

[...]
Yeah, my point was you're not going to achieve that if the rules are voted by racers as above.

And honestly, I don't really understand the satisfaction found in beating the other guy because you have a faster motor.

And I don't understand why seasoned guys end up in the beginners' race.

This basically means any beginner who would show up would have to look at how they are lapped lap after lap and have to move out of the way constantly instead of trying to learn driving, the track, the car.

At our club, the "sportsman" class (which If I remember correctly was designed to attract newcomers) is now full of well seasoned racers who have a huge experience and thousands of dollars' worth of gear plus the latest and greatest motor/battery etc. Far cry from what you/we are trying to achieve.

The 1/8E class is a lot more attractive now because the gear is fairly even there (still a very expensive class, but expensive as that is, I reckon some people spent more on their stuff in 21.5-sportsman than I did on my 1/8 gear).

If you really want a solution, look at the ETS races. Participation in the stock class is huge because they limited the motor, esc and tyre.

And if you're going to say the races are boring, they may be boring for you, but for a beginner stepping in the hobby it gives scope to improve and a good measure of their progress, because they know everybody else has the same gear so direct comparisons are not meaningless.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:06 PM   #230
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And I don't understand why seasoned guys end up in the beginners' race.

This basically means any beginner who would show up would have to look at how they are lapped lap after lap and have to move out of the way constantly instead of trying to learn driving, the track, the car.
When I started this year I didn't have to spend that much time pulling over, and racing against the faster guys allowed me to learn the faster lines. Although I wasn't a true beginner, I used to race years ago as a junior. There were a couple of new guys that struggled just to get around the track, and they didn't really have to put in any effort to yield to lapping drivers.

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If you really want a solution, look at the ETS races. Participation in the stock class is huge because they limited the motor, esc and tyre.
They also have a significantly higher population density, so it's not a fair comparison.

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And if you're going to say the races are boring, they may be boring for you, but for a beginner stepping in the hobby it gives scope to improve and a good measure of their progress, because they know everybody else has the same gear so direct comparisons are not meaningless.
Comparing against the top drivers in a slow class is very useful, even if they have better equipment. They're usually more consistent, so I was able to measure my progress by how much I closed the gap. Just looking at my own lap times was less meaningful as the track conditions varied greatly over the year, and the layout changed a couple of times. Of course it would be more meaningful if the equipment was more closely matched.
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Old 11-30-2016, 10:49 PM   #231
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If newbs are qualifying/racing in the same heats as A-main drivers, there is a serious problem with the organization.

Normally, a-main guys are racing a-main guys, and d-main guys are racing d-main guys. If there is insufficient entries to separate a-main guys from d-main guys, it doesn't seem fair to penalize the good drivers. If newbs are being put into qualifier rounds with a-main guys for no logical reason, then the RD needs to be slapped around.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:28 PM   #232
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If newbs are qualifying/racing in the same heats as A-main drivers, there is a serious problem with the organization.

Normally, a-main guys are racing a-main guys, and d-main guys are racing d-main guys. If there is insufficient entries to separate a-main guys from d-main guys, it doesn't seem fair to penalize the good drivers. If newbs are being put into qualifier rounds with a-main guys for no logical reason, then the RD needs to be slapped around.
At our club meetings this is generally the case, as the race director "seeds" the fields, based on peoples performances over the last few weeks. Some people move up, and some people move down, but mostly all drivers are competing with their peers that are on equal pace.

We have a "novice" group for those just starting out, and is %98 kids to one or two adults. When the novice drivers have advanced in their driving skills, we allow them to "test the water" in the slower group above novice, with the option to return to novice if they wish to do so.
This has happened a couple of times, especially if they have been away from racing for an extended period.

This is why we're going to be looking at a spec class for newcomers, and those that are still getting their race craft in place. Simple, low priced equipment that can take a bit of abuse, geared at a speed to be easier for new drivers, that can have some fun without worrying about faster drivers lapping them every 3-4 laps.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:33 PM   #233
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Why not just continue running a novice "run what you brung" class? Forcing a new driver to operate a specific car that they may or may not like, inhibits their enjoyment, while also creates another hurdle to advancing to the "normal" class.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:39 PM   #234
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sorry if this has been mentioned before, but too many pages and i didnt read through it all

Years ago when i worked in a hobby shop that had its own race track, we would rent out shop owned and maintained cars so people can get a feel of the sport without needing to spend heaps just to find out if it's something they enjoy or not. Many times, this has translated to sales in the shop in both high end and entry level kits and gear

I understand this might be too much of an investment for a club to purchase kits and gear, but i'm sure there are enough members and club sponsors out there that can pitch in their old and unused stuff maybe in exchange for XX amount of race entry fees depending on what was donated?
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:49 PM   #235
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Yeah, my point was you're not going to achieve that if the rules are voted by racers as above.

And honestly, I don't really understand the satisfaction found in beating the other guy because you have a faster motor.

And I don't understand why seasoned guys end up in the beginners' race.

This basically means any beginner who would show up would have to look at how they are lapped lap after lap and have to move out of the way constantly instead of trying to learn driving, the track, the car.

At our club, the "sportsman" class (which If I remember correctly was designed to attract newcomers) is now full of well seasoned racers who have a huge experience and thousands of dollars' worth of gear plus the latest and greatest motor/battery etc. Far cry from what you/we are trying to achieve.

The 1/8E class is a lot more attractive now because the gear is fairly even there (still a very expensive class, but expensive as that is, I reckon some people spent more on their stuff in 21.5-sportsman than I did on my 1/8 gear).

If you really want a solution, look at the ETS races. Participation in the stock class is huge because they limited the motor, esc and tyre.

And if you're going to say the races are boring, they may be boring for you, but for a beginner stepping in the hobby it gives scope to improve and a good measure of their progress, because they know everybody else has the same gear so direct comparisons are not meaningless.
Sorry, I didn't word that very well after I looked at it.

There's many factors of why seasoned racers stay in slower classes, some say they want to race with their friends, some believe that the next group up is too fast for them, some also have a perception that the faster classes will cost more to race etc.

What I was trying to say was that we're trying to cater for 2 different groups at our club meetings.

The 1st would be a entry level spec class, with low cost equipment, that has a degree of durability to take abuse and not break. The speeds of the cars for this group would be set at a much lower speed to make them new driver friendly.

The 2nd is a well established, (and most popular class at our club) in which the seasoned drivers drivers race in, the limit for this class is determined by motor wind, and other car specs that are set by our national governing body. A few drivers in this class are more "mature" and very aware that their reactions are not as quick as some much younger drivers.

The aim of this is to try and attract & retain newer drivers, as they are literally the future of the sport/hobby, but also keep the more serious, and highly competitive racers happy within a class that can, and often does come down to fractions of a second between each driver.
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Old 12-01-2016, 12:09 AM   #236
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Why not just continue running a novice "run what you brung" class? Forcing a new driver to operate a specific car that they may or may not like, inhibits their enjoyment, while also creates another hurdle to advancing to the "normal" class.
The downside to that is that, in the past new drivers have turned up with a rtr car that shops sell with insanely low wind motors in them, because they want something "fast", then proceed to nail a barrier/car/object with the result being carnage. More likely than not, there is very little (if any) parts support for those type of cars, so they go home dejected, and never come back again.

If we can guide them into a car that will be able to be "upgraded" with little changes to compete in the next group up, and is a car that other members race, then they can also draw upon the support of those people for both advice, and if need be a spare part to keep them racing.

I'm always a supporter of the saying "you don't need to spend a lot to be competitive", sure you may not win or gain a place on the podium, but when you do through good driving and car prep, it makes the experience a lot more fulfilling.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:28 AM   #237
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I get that. But because we don't control or regulate what a brick & mortar shop sells, the logic of a spec class to regulate poor purchases sounds flawed.

The real problem is that the goals of a brick & mortar store are different from the goals of a racing club. Most brick & mortar hobby shops are only interested in generating enough profit to pay rent. Whether that profit is generated by Traxxas cars, Gundam models, or HO trains, is really of little concern to them.

I believe that people who want to get into racing need to understand the difference between what a general hobby shop sells, and what a specific RC racing shop sells. This definition can clearly be defined to them, once they throw down their 3 cell RTR ca with kit tires and brushed motor, onto a track where it is being out handled.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:59 PM   #238
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I get that. But because we don't control or regulate what a brick & mortar shop sells, the logic of a spec class to regulate poor purchases sounds flawed.

The real problem is that the goals of a brick & mortar store are different from the goals of a racing club. Most brick & mortar hobby shops are only interested in generating enough profit to pay rent. Whether that profit is generated by Traxxas cars, Gundam models, or HO trains, is really of little concern to them.

I believe that people who want to get into racing need to understand the difference between what a general hobby shop sells, and what a specific RC racing shop sells. This definition can clearly be defined to them, once they throw down their 3 cell RTR ca with kit tires and brushed motor, onto a track where it is being out handled.
That's where we try to guide them towards brick & mortar shops that can sell them the car, and equipment that they are aware of what's being used for racing, we have a few stores like that in this city, with one of them about a 2 minute drive away from the track.

As for the car, it can be any touring car chassis so they can use it when they move up to the next class, all they have to do is change body, tires, and fdr. They don't have to upgrade from the slower motor because, with the open gearing they won't be much slower than the slower group in the next class.
This will save them some money until they want to go faster and upgrade from a 25.5 to 21.5 motor.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:10 PM   #239
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I got what your saying. So it's not exactly a spec chassis, moreso it is specific rules for a novice class.

Yes, having an actual store that has the interest of racers in mind is key. If the store doesn't sell touring car tires or a setup station, it probably is not a hobby store catered to rc racing.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:17 PM   #240
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I got what your saying. So it's not exactly a spec chassis, moreso it is specific rules for a novice class.

Yes, having an actual store that has the interest of racers in mind is key. If the store doesn't sell touring car tires or a setup station, it probably is not a hobby store catered to rc racing.
And that's why since the new hobby shop opened up here our membership has double in the past 2 years. Before that the other shop never supported us.
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