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Old 11-20-2016, 09:06 PM   #166
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We can agree to disagree.

I believe we are making our points based on our own personal experiences. When I helped to start and operate a racing club 14 years ago, left it to work 1000 km away, and then returned to help operate it last year after being away for several years, I probably encountered very different situations than you.

I wish you all the best and hope it works out.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:17 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Nerobro View Post
While someone barks at them, and looks down on them, for choices they didn't know they were making wrong for in the first place. And we're back to rolling roadblock. Do you want someone who's ~new~ ruining your lap count because they're doing three loops on the back stretch? Or they have't figured out braking and punt you off a corner because they are on a ballistic trajectory towards the outside curb?
If the regular guys are treating the beginners like this, the race director or a senior club member should be stepping in and telling them that's not on. Besides, I regularly get punted off a corner by experienced guys who should know better.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:23 PM   #168
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The biggest class at B&B Hobbies in Spokane, WA where I race is the "Legends" class. The class is pretty inexpensive to get into. Everyone must have either an original Bolink or new RJ Speed chassis ($50 to $129 depending where you can find one on sale or a used one on eBay, there are 6 body styles to choose from), the same yellow-stripe spec tires (the RJ Speed kit includes them), a Tamiya Black Label RS-540 motor ($19 at the track), an $18 1800 NiMh stick pack, and a $6 15 tooth pinion. A super basic radio, ESC, charger, and servo will get the job done for beginners. There are only two things you can change on the chassis; swap the wheel bushings to bearings and swap to the 3-piece front end. We have one senior racer that techs every car and is always willing to help anyone get there car up and running. This class usually has A, B, C, D, and sometimes E mains. Driver ages range from 10 to 70. The only real "tuning" that can be done is how tight the cross tubes are, how tight the diff is set, and how much of the tire you sauce. The diff build in a good intro into RC wrenching and the rest of the kit will not overwhelm must people. It is alway a fun class to watch. The beginners will work their way up through the mains and the experienced drives usually be within 3 laps over there 17.5t TC cars. Parts are cheap for the guys that break a lot to while learning. The shop even has a "combo" package that includes everything needed except a radio and ESC. I have one and it is pretty fun to drive. The class seems to be a great way to get people into racing and then on to other classes too.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:44 PM   #169
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We can agree to disagree.
*snip*
I wish you all the best and hope it works out.
We can. :-) And your input has definitely not fallen on deaf ears.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:19 AM   #170
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I don't see where contentiousness helps any possibly objective relevant to this thread.

Someone said minis are useless on a groomed track. That's ridiculous. In my stock Mini Rally with lipo, TC tires, and the hand plastics removed from the body, I can turn times equivalent to my high end VTA car... and turn in 5 minute runs that match up as well. The major differences are A) the VTA equipment costs about 4 times more than the Mini Rally B) the VTA requires periodic time on the setup station, and C) I never come anywhere near the Mini Rally with a tool. If you think that describes a useless car on a groomed track, you're missing something.

Fixing racing as a whole. As I see it, the number one problem here in Texas is recruiting new racers, so I'm going to start there. We don't really seem to have a retention problem, so I'm not sure there's any other problem I need to do something about. I raced offroad and owned a track, then sold everything and left the hobby for about five years. Decided to come back, wanted to build a track, so I got into on road.

When I re-entered the hobby, if I wanted to race using current or last year equipment and a good radio, my MINIMUM expenditure was around $800. I got there buying someone's half-built kit, used radio, used motor, and so forth. I bought roughly 9 different items in order to get one car together. This is the number 1 problem with the hobby, easily. The cost and complexity of getting your initial equipment. If I didn't know -- KNOW -- that I was going to stay in, my answer would be f-that.

You're welcome to different perspectives and opinions, but mine is this. If land RC racing does not have an inexpensive (around $300) hopefully single-box entry solution, it is going to lose to drone racing all day long.

That car is going to be inferior, so make sure it is inferior in ways that make it novice-friendly. If it's inferior because it breaks all of the time or requires constant maintenance, you are going to cut people out. Some people are willing to wrench on their equipment all of the time, and others are not. We need both sorts. That car is not going to be competitive with $1000 rigs... and the novice drivers aren't going to be competitive with old hands. If you race novices in a way to ensures they're spending their entire race times being passed , wrecking, and getting out of the way, they are going to quit. So you'd better work your program and classes in ways that minimize this issue. Or you could tell them to go away until they can drive better... I'm sure that works really well.

Somebody asked where the box stock Slash class is. There's one locally. More to the point, probably half of the local racers here started with one. Was that class worth it? Umm... hell yes.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:56 AM   #171
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Somebody asked where the box stock Slash class is. There's one locally. More to the point, probably half of the local racers here started with one. Was that class worth it? Umm... hell yes.
Not sure you're referring to me. I did bring up the Slash class, but I didn't ask where it was. My point was no matter how restricted a class is, once us racers get involved with it, it becomes another race class, and there's a new call for an entry level class, even though the last entry level class just became a race class.

Yes we need new racers in the hobby. But I don't think it can be done on a national level. It's up to each track to find the best way to get new people racing. It going to be different for each track. Each track will have to come up with their own formula to bring people in, and that will depend on what the track normally runs.

It's not easy, but we do need to try.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:02 AM   #172
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<on Minis> B) the VTA requires periodic time on the setup station, and C) I never come anywhere near the Mini Rally with a tool.
"if it can be adjusted, that may make it need adjusting." When I stopped paying attention to ~serious~ r/c cars a few years back, (a decade?) they just started to remove adjustments from cars and trucks. For a while you could get angled lower swingarm mounts, and angled hubs. I recall some cars even having an adjustment screw for anti-squat adjustment. Having to much adjustment can put in in a place where your car may never actually work well.

It's fun to see what people publish a "good" setups for games like Gran Turismo. Some of those suspension setups are ~hilarious~.

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As I see it, the number one problem here in Texas is recruiting new racers, so I'm going to start there. *snip*

I bought roughly 9 different items in order to get one car together. This is the number 1 problem with the hobby, easily. The cost and complexity of getting your initial equipment. If I didn't know -- KNOW -- that I was going to stay in, my answer would be f-that.
The VTA car I just built. Car, Body, Motor, ESC, Pinion, Wheels, Tires, Servo, with each of those purchases requiring thought, (excepting the tires) and leaving me with no easy recourse if I did something ~really~ wrong. Now if I were just starting, you get to take on some tire glue, charger, radio and receiver set.... Which are all more places that you can "get it wrong".

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If land RC racing does not have an inexpensive (around $300) hopefully single-box entry solution, it is going to lose to drone racing all day long.
$300, gets me a quad, with "enough of everything" to go to a drone event and only really worry about my skills, rather than the quad itself. And to get there, I need to order one box for the quad, and one for the goggles. Two decisions, easy, and the only assembly is tightening the props and antennas on.

Quote:
Somebody asked where the box stock Slash class is. There's one locally. More to the point, probably half of the local racers here started with one. Was that class worth it? Umm... hell yes.
I know there's a Slash class at at least one of the local off road tracks. The impression I got here was that wasn't common.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:49 AM   #173
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It's not, because box stock classes never stay that way. One of two things happen.
1. Experienced drivers decide to race it and just by the shear fact of being there, intimidate new drivers.

2. "Car broke and I can't find the stock part, can I use blank instead?" And it is a downward spiral from there. We are attempting to put a stock Mini class together at a coupe of my local tracks, but between the three of them, there is zero consistency as to "box stock". Hell even some of the truly box stock minis are different. Some come with slicks, while others do not. That is setting up a bad recipe to start with. I love the class, drive my car with only bearings and a front bumper upgrade. Super fun, and didn't touch it all day, except to charge. But, like I said before, having experienced drivers like myself in the class means it is not a novice class.

I believe each track should do its own thing to excite and recruit new drivers, and after driving one, a mini is a great start. I just have to be willing to put the controller down and hand it over to a novice to drive. So I'll have my car up at the track with me whenever I go invade a new kid shows up and needs a loner.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:20 AM   #174
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A hobby shop on Staten Island NY runs a temporary track. There's a TT01 class and a mini class. TT01 is mostly box stock, except for ball bearings and spec tires. Mini is strictly TCS rules. Although experienced people do run the classes, there is a big push toward new racers. The shop, and all the racers, do everything they can to help out new people. I've witnessed many racers go from first time newbie to A main winners.

You have to remember the purpose of the class and resist changes recommended by racers. Otherwise it falls apart quickly.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:46 AM   #175
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I don't think a gimmick class like Mini is a good option for a brand new racer, mini and other novelty classes are hotbeds of bending the rules and in some ways are actually more demanding on the building and tuning skills of the racers than the 'more advanced' class. Running classes that race real cars like VTA or just standard 17.5 touring in a 'novice' class teach lessons in building and tuning useful to the beginners advancement in the hobby.
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Old 11-21-2016, 03:42 PM   #176
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Coming back to RC after a couple decades off and trying to get into the sportsman classes at the local tracks. And it seems the advice I get a lot is "Just buy the best of the best of the best!" or you'll never win. I really don't care about winning.

I just want to grab a slash or xxx-sct for offroad SCT or TT02 with silver can motor or the RS4 sort RTR for onroad sportmans to get back into it. The answers always come back to, "you'll never win".

I just want an organized place to race and as long as the quality of the car keeps it from falling apart then so be it.

One thing a lot of people in the RC world have with people in my other favorite hobby, shooting, is being either anti-noob, antisocial or that aforementioned go top of the line or go home.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:13 PM   #177
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I don't think a gimmick class like Mini is a good option for a brand new racer, mini and other novelty classes are hotbeds of bending the rules and in some ways are actually more demanding on the building and tuning skills of the racers than the 'more advanced' class. Running classes that race real cars like VTA or just standard 17.5 touring in a 'novice' class teach lessons in building and tuning useful to the beginners advancement in the hobby.


Minis are different. They're not a gimmick. And there's not much building or tuning requirements for them, it's mostly about learning proper braking to avoid rolling over in the corners. They're also easier to read, they'll tell you when you make a driving mistake. They're great for learning to drive. VTA by comparison is pretty easy to drive, and it's possible to drive without brakes at all (track dependent) so doesn't necessarily teach throttle/brake control. VTA cars have more tuning adjustments, so can help to teach tuning. Both types of cars have merit.

What this hobby needs is less snubbing of others.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:18 PM   #178
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YES! See, this is how it should be done. My local track has Legends running a $100 brushless motor and esc plus a $50 1S lipo. Why? I just don't see the need and it keeps me from joining the class. How many people would join if there was a class that cost like $150 all in (assuming you have a radio and charger)?

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The biggest class at B&B Hobbies in Spokane, WA where I race is the "Legends" class. The class is pretty inexpensive to get into. Everyone must have either an original Bolink or new RJ Speed chassis ($50 to $129 depending where you can find one on sale or a used one on eBay, there are 6 body styles to choose from), the same yellow-stripe spec tires (the RJ Speed kit includes them), a Tamiya Black Label RS-540 motor ($19 at the track), an $18 1800 NiMh stick pack, and a $6 15 tooth pinion. A super basic radio, ESC, charger, and servo will get the job done for beginners. There are only two things you can change on the chassis; swap the wheel bushings to bearings and swap to the 3-piece front end. We have one senior racer that techs every car and is always willing to help anyone get there car up and running. This class usually has A, B, C, D, and sometimes E mains. Driver ages range from 10 to 70. The only real "tuning" that can be done is how tight the cross tubes are, how tight the diff is set, and how much of the tire you sauce. The diff build in a good intro into RC wrenching and the rest of the kit will not overwhelm must people. It is alway a fun class to watch. The beginners will work their way up through the mains and the experienced drives usually be within 3 laps over there 17.5t TC cars. Parts are cheap for the guys that break a lot to while learning. The shop even has a "combo" package that includes everything needed except a radio and ESC. I have one and it is pretty fun to drive. The class seems to be a great way to get people into racing and then on to other classes too.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:46 PM   #179
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YES! See, this is how it should be done. My local track has Legends running a $100 brushless motor and esc plus a $50 1S lipo. Why? I just don't see the need and it keeps me from joining the class. How many people would join if there was a class that cost like $150 all in (assuming you have a radio and charger)?
To be fair, that class wasn't created for beginners. It was created to entice the existing dirt track oval racers to continue racing through the winter, inside on the carpet, now that the outdoor season is over. The spec brushless motor, ESC, and battery are intended to keep the competition close. It seems to be working!
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Old 11-21-2016, 05:47 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
I don't think a gimmick class like Mini is a good option for a brand new racer, mini and other novelty classes are hotbeds of bending the rules and in some ways are actually more demanding on the building and tuning skills of the racers than the 'more advanced' class. Running classes that race real cars like VTA or just standard 17.5 touring in a 'novice' class teach lessons in building and tuning useful to the beginners advancement in the hobby.
I resemble that remark and respectfully disagree.

Mini, TT01, some TCS classes and most spec classes are great beginner classes that DO INDEED teach fundamentals without letting beginners get lost in less important details of chassis setup. For instance, most minis and TT0X cars lack camber, caster, and hinge-pin adjustments, leaving tire sauce and shocks/springs/swaybars as the only tangible tuning choices. This GREATLY lowers the learning curve and allows the beginner to concentrate on driving. Listen, the fast guys are always going to be fast, no matter what class they choose to race in. The truly great racers, fast or not, will help beginners nurture their interest in the hobby. But I agree on one important difference, fringe classes randomly become sporadic, making it difficult to support those classes in some areas, and thus, not great for beginners unless the local racers support the class.

I believe we all simply need to adopt that helpful personality and impress upon beginners that their driving is far and away the most important thing they should spend time working on. My $0.02.
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