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Old 11-20-2016, 01:00 PM   #151
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This right here is the problem! For one, why would you do that to your kid's car, instead of letting your kid enjoy tinkering and playing with the car, rebuilding the shocks? Second, why in the world would you spend the money on ceramic bearings for an intro class, intended to be inexpensive?? If your kid is just getting into the hobby, s/he will never notice the difference ceramic bearings provide.

These things go directly against the spirit of such an introductory class. The goal shouldn't be winning at all costs, it should be having fun at only a little cost. Once your kid understands enough on taking care of his/her car, can drive a clean lap, and feels like the challenge is waning, your kid can decide to move up to another class or stay having fun with friends. Perhaps the entire group of friends can move to a new class together, making room for other newbies.
I was just about to post the same thing, you beat me to it.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:08 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by longuylander View Post
This right here is the problem! For one, why would you do that to your kid's car, instead of letting your kid enjoy tinkering and playing with the car, rebuilding the shocks? Second, why in the world would you spend the money on ceramic bearings for an intro class, intended to be inexpensive?? If your kid is just getting into the hobby, s/he will never notice the difference ceramic bearings provide.

These things go directly against the spirit of such an introductory class. The goal shouldn't be winning at all costs, it should be having fun at only a little cost. Once your kid understands enough on taking care of his/her car, can drive a clean lap, and feels like the challenge is waning, your kid can decide to move up to another class or stay having fun with friends. Perhaps the entire group of friends can move to a new class together, making room for other newbies.

It was more hypothetical, simply because I will never have kids. But it was mainly to prove a point. I wouldn't do it, like I said, I'll never have kids and if I did they wouldn't race in an entry level introductory class. They would practice until they were able to run a regular class. But sitting here lecturing me like your'e my father doesn't change the fact that a RTR class is not going to help the hobby. It would be just as helpful as putting ceramic bearings in a RTR touring car.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:32 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
It was more hypothetical, simply because I will never have kids. But it was mainly to prove a point. I wouldn't do it, like I said, I'll never have kids and if I did they wouldn't race in an entry level introductory class. They would practice until they were able to run a regular class. But sitting here lecturing me like your'e my father doesn't change the fact that a RTR class is not going to help the hobby. It would be just as helpful as putting ceramic bearings in a RTR touring car.
To prove a point? You might need to try again as I think we missed it. Ceramic bearings don't help that much, and definitely won't help a beginner. And if an experienced racer drops cash on bearings to beat a rookie, they'll win regardless due to their driving skills. Bearings are a stealth upgrade so there's no issue with the beginner thinking the upgrade is necessary unless the driver boasts about having them, at which point they can be disqualified for breaking the box stock rules.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:36 PM   #154
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Everyone should ask themselves this question - "Have I ever thought that a specific r/c vehicle isn't fit for racing?" If you have answered yes to this question, then YOU are part of the problem with the hobby.

ANYTHING can be raced. Whether it should be raced or not is not up for us to decide. It is up to the people who want to buy that vehicle and race it. If there are enough of those people who want to bring them to a track and race them in their own class, we should welcome them with open arms.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't help and/or encourage new people to buy the appropriate type of vehicle for specific classes. But we need to stop scaring people away from this hobby by making them feel like they need to spend thousands just to set foot on the track.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, spend more time trying to put a controller in the hands of interested spectators than worrying about trying to win a toy car race. Take time to help new people at the track have fun in whatever class they are running. Help them get the most out of WHATEVER vehicle they are running. Make everyone feel welcome and maybe they will want to come back.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:55 PM   #155
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Are you people reading all the posts or just the last few? I said I am trying to get a stock Slash class going at my home track to do just what is being discussed.

Yes anything can be raced. You're right there. Will it be competitive? Will it be a successful class? Who knows until you try. The point of my posts is that an RTR class for beginners is not going to fix the hobby as a whole. It may bring in more local racers at some small tracks but that doesn't need fixing as much as on a national level.

The TCS series was a genius idea but it didnt take off all over, and without a manufacturer backing the idea its just not feasible.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:56 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
It was more hypothetical, simply because I will never have kids. But it was mainly to prove a point. I wouldn't do it, like I said, I'll never have kids and if I did they wouldn't race in an entry level introductory class. They would practice until they were able to run a regular class. But sitting here lecturing me like your'e my father doesn't change the fact that a RTR class is not going to help the hobby. It would be just as helpful as putting ceramic bearings in a RTR touring car.
So you're suggesting that those new to the hobby and aren't sure if they're interested should practice until they're good enough to run with more veteran drivers to decide if they want to stay with it? And where exactly will they practice? It's also been pointed out that track time is a premium for most, due to track locations.

I'm not lecturing you at all; I'm just pointing out that your mentality is what is killing the hobby, and is in no way helpful with what this thread is exploring.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:06 PM   #157
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So you're suggesting that those new to the hobby and aren't sure if they're interested should practice until they're good enough to run with more veteran drivers to decide if they want to stay with it? And where exactly will they practice? It's also been pointed out that track time is a premium for most, due to track locations.

I'm not lecturing you at all; I'm just pointing out that your mentality is what is killing the hobby, and is in no way helpful with what this thread is exploring.
Where did I suggest that? I said if I had kids, that's what they would do.

Stop judging me and putting words in my mouth. I said earlier that rentals were the way to get people interested with huge investment. LIR has a great thing going with the Slash rentals. Its truly the best way to get people started without spending a fortune.

My first post in this thread stated that its not about the initial investment as much as it is getting the most out of their investment. More people will stay in this hobby if they spend $1000 and are treated with dignity and respect than if they spent $200 and get yelled at by "pros". Im sure you heard the fast guys screaming and yelling at marshals for not moving fast enough or hearing people getting yelled at for "hacking" when its just someone not being as good as a driver as everyone else.

I have seen it plenty of times first hand. Regardless of anything else, people need to stop being elitists and start bringing FUN and family values back into the hobby.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:17 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
Where did I suggest that? I said if I had kids, that's what they would do.
Right here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
I wouldn't do it, like I said, I'll never have kids and if I did they wouldn't race in an entry level introductory class. They would practice until they were able to run a regular class.
Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that's how longuylander and I interpreted it.

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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
Stop judging me and putting words in my mouth. I said earlier that rentals were the way to get people interested with huge investment. LIR has a great thing going with the Slash rentals. Its truly the best way to get people started without spending a fortune.

My first post in this thread stated that its not about the initial investment as much as it is getting the most out of their investment. More people will stay in this hobby if they spend $1000 and are treated with dignity and respect than if they spent $200 and get yelled at by "pros". Im sure you heard the fast guys screaming and yelling at marshals for not moving fast enough or hearing people getting yelled at for "hacking" when its just someone not being as good as a driver as everyone else.

I have seen it plenty of times first hand. Regardless of anything else, people need to stop being elitists and start bringing FUN and family values back into the hobby.
This I agree with. I posted something similar earlier in this thread.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:18 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
Where did I suggest that? I said if I had kids, that's what they would do.

Stop judging me and putting words in my mouth. I said earlier that rentals were the way to get people interested with huge investment. LIR has a great thing going with the Slash rentals. Its truly the best way to get people started without spending a fortune.

My first post in this thread stated that its not about the initial investment as much as it is getting the most out of their investment. More people will stay in this hobby if they spend $1000 and are treated with dignity and respect than if they spent $200 and get yelled at by "pros". Im sure you heard the fast guys screaming and yelling at marshals for not moving fast enough or hearing people getting yelled at for "hacking" when its just someone not being as good as a driver as everyone else.

I have seen it plenty of times first hand. Regardless of anything else, people need to stop being elitists and start bringing FUN and family values back into the hobby.
Again, 'm not judging you; I'm trying to interpret how to convert what you're saying about these hypothetical situations into something useful.

I agree with you that there's an attitude among some veteran drivers that make the atmosphere of the track off-putting. And certainly people would feel better about spending any money if they knew they'd get the most out of what they purchase.

Having to drop a grand to get a foot in the door is unreasonable. Especially, considering how many things will be broken while learning to drive. And trying to have new drivers learn while veteran drivers - who spent more than $1000 on their setup - get their vehicles broken in the process won't work. That's part of what causes anger at new drivers!

I'm interested to hear how the Slash rentals go. It only makes sense to me that there'd be a Slash class as well. Hopefully the track can figure out a schedule that newcomers can practice without upsetting or running off the veterans, and races can be done in timely fashions for all.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:57 PM   #160
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We have 2 different goals in this thread.
One is Bill Kelly wanting something that doubles as a parking lot basher and knowing up front that the entire vehicle is a throw away if the class tanks from attendance.(post 129).

The other is overall what is a good investment, teaches driving skills and has an upgrade path. 99% of what 1/4milecrazy said is the truth here. It's the brutal hard truth, but the truth just the same. In this case, I would still say it comes down to USGT or A 21.5 pan car class based on WGT-R.
I still beleive the 21.5 Juststock WGT-R is the drivers class. It's super durable to the point of being almost impossible to break anything expensive. A $9 servo will work for a season if they run a servo saver. The setup is pretty easy to replicate and is almost standardized on CRC Black Carpet. If you can't tune it yourself, Ask Dumper in the WGT-R thread and he will give you the base setup. The setup might even be on a wiki by now. This also allows experienced drivers to help new drivers find setup problems.

This leads me to the other reason people stay or go. It's the team drivers who take the time to offer some friendly setup help.

I started racing locally in 1989 but it wasn't until I raced 2006~2008 with some Team Tekin drivers that I really understood what to do with digital calipers and why. On in particular had the gift for teaching and knew when somebody really had troubles. He could take a new guy who was ready to throw his transmitter and bring them back by simply saying "hey buddy, I think I see what's wrong there. Can I have a look at it?" I'm not going to call him out and embarrass him, so let's just call him the Bear.

The Bear probably kept more guys in on-road than anybody on the East Coast by with just a little setup help and some well timed humor. I owe this guy a ton. So do many others.
Every track needs one of these guys. Every track owner should take care of these guys. They transform a place from just a track to a popular scene that you want to be part of.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:54 PM   #161
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I remember going to my first TCS race with basically cheap stuff and a gt2 class setup. I showed up and after the first quality one of the top guys came over to my little table and sat down. Told me that I was in the wrong class because of my skill level and setup. Then he took the time and gave me some spare parts (he was a tamiya team driver) and tool my tt01 and set it up for gt3 class. If it wasn't for him I bet at the end of the day I would have left and never looked back but because he took the time and advice to show me how to get my foot in the door and where to start and I stayed. 18 years later and if I see someone new to the track I will do the same thing. Help them out anyway I can. Give them parts if the need. Never ask for anything in return. It's the people that bring other people into this hobby. Which in today's culture of everyone wins is lacking. It's not really a hobby thing as it is a culture thing imo

Ps. Half way through that season many years ago I bought 2 more chassis and ran gt2, gt3, and rally classes.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:05 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by longuylander View Post
So you're suggesting that those new to the hobby and aren't sure if they're interested should practice until they're good enough to run with more veteran drivers
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
like I said, I'll never have kids and if I did they wouldn't race in an entry level introductory class. They would practice until they were able to run a regular class.
I never said for everyone new to the hobby. I said if I had kids.

I didnt mince my words. You both just read it wrong.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:43 PM   #163
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Lowering cost is not the solution, which was the point of my original post in this thread.

I also feel, like others, that making a unique class with unique rules does not help things grow in the long run.

Making new people feel welcome and excited is the key. There is no fun in coming to the realization that you were in a bubble this whole time. Have new racers run in the same events with experienced racers. They wont be "fed to the wolves". A-main guys will be A-main guys. F-main guys will have fun bumping around in the F-main. Mod guys will be mod guys. USGT guys will be USGT guys. Nobody is suggesting that new drivers jump into mod.

What having everyone together does, is have all participants following the same rules, under the same roof together. Those who choose to invest in getting better by; learning from the experienced guys, understanding how to tune their car, learning how to drive better lines, or by purchasing pricey equipment, will be able to gauge how they excel based on previous results of their own, as well as the results of their peers.

If a new guy shows up with a TT02 for their first year of racing in USGT, so be it. Let them have fun. One of the issues with the hobby is that some new guys go "full retard" and buy a pair of A800's and a pair of 5.5T motors as their first venture into RC racing. They'll get frustrated that they aren't winning trophies, and quit. All the while the other new guys running TT02's will have envy, dreaming about how much faster they would be if they had those A800's.

You can't stop fools from wasting their money, and you can't stop impressionable minds from dreaming. With a good support system of helpful and welcoming experienced drivers, you can help teach.....those who are willing to learn. This goes back to my point in my original post on this thread. We cannot make or motivate people to do anything that they don't want to do, simply by lowering the cost of driving standardized cars. Making events more welcoming, where new racers understand what they are getting into, and what they need to do to get to the next level, is what needs to change at local tracks. New racers need to realize that having a TT02 with a 25.5 motor will help them better understand the sport, so that they will be able to handle an A800 with a 13.5 at a later date, if they choose to do so.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:50 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Eddie_E View Post
We have 2 different goals in this thread.
One is Bill Kelly wanting something that doubles as a parking lot basher and knowing up front that the entire vehicle is a throw away if the class tanks from attendance.(post 129).

The other is overall what is a good investment, teaches driving skills and has an upgrade path. 99% of what 1/4milecrazy said is the truth here. It's the brutal hard truth, but the truth just the same. In this case, I would still say it comes down to USGT or A 21.5 pan car class based on WGT-R.
I still beleive the 21.5 Juststock WGT-R is the drivers class. It's super durable to the point of being almost impossible to break anything expensive. A $9 servo will work for a season if they run a servo saver. The setup is pretty easy to replicate and is almost standardized on CRC Black Carpet. If you can't tune it yourself, Ask Dumper in the WGT-R thread and he will give you the base setup. The setup might even be on a wiki by now. This also allows experienced drivers to help new drivers find setup problems.

This leads me to the other reason people stay or go. It's the team drivers who take the time to offer some friendly setup help.

I started racing locally in 1989 but it wasn't until I raced 2006~2008 with some Team Tekin drivers that I really understood what to do with digital calipers and why. On in particular had the gift for teaching and knew when somebody really had troubles. He could take a new guy who was ready to throw his transmitter and bring them back by simply saying "hey buddy, I think I see what's wrong there. Can I have a look at it?" I'm not going to call him out and embarrass him, so let's just call him the Bear.

The Bear probably kept more guys in on-road than anybody on the East Coast by with just a little setup help and some well timed humor. I owe this guy a ton. So do many others.
Every track needs one of these guys. Every track owner should take care of these guys. They transform a place from just a track to a popular scene that you want to be part of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by (0000000000) View Post
Lowering cost is not the solution, which was the point of my original post in this thread.

I also feel, like others, that making a unique class with unique rules does not help things grow in the long run.

Making new people feel welcome and excited is the key. There is no fun in coming to the realization that you were in a bubble this whole time. Have new racers run in the same events with experienced racers. They wont be "fed to the wolves". A-main guys will be A-main guys. F-main guys will have fun bumping around in the F-main. Mod guys will be mod guys. USGT guys will be USGT guys. Nobody is suggesting that new drivers jump into mod.

What having everyone together does, is have all participants following the same rules, under the same roof together. Those who choose to invest in getting better by; learning from the experienced guys, understanding how to tune their car, learning how to drive better lines, or by purchasing pricey equipment, will be able to gauge how they excel based on previous results of their own, as well as the results of their peers.

If a new guy shows up with a TT02 for their first year of racing in USGT, so be it. Let them have fun. One of the issues with the hobby is that some new guys go "full retard" and buy a pair of A800's and a pair of 5.5T motors as their first venture into RC racing. They'll get frustrated that they aren't winning trophies, and quit. All the while the other new guys running TT02's will have envy, dreaming about how much faster they would be if they had those A800's.

You can't stop fools from wasting their money, and you can't stop impressionable minds from dreaming. With a good support system of helpful and welcoming experienced drivers, you can help teach.....those who are willing to learn. This goes back to my point in my original post on this thread. We cannot make or motivate people to do anything that they don't want to do, simply by lowering the cost of driving standardized cars. Making events more welcoming, where new racers understand what they are getting into, and what they need to do to get to the next level, is what needs to change at local tracks. New racers need to realize that having a TT02 with a 25.5 motor will help them better understand the sport, so that they will be able to handle an A800 with a 13.5 at a later date, if they choose to do so.
Exactly. If this was facebook I would like this comment.

I just had a discussion with a kid this weekend. Over driving worse than anyone I have ever seen. I told him to stop trying to win because he wont do it. I also told him that the fast lap column of the results does not win races, Its the top 15 column that does. He instantly started driving with more control and was on a mission to be consistent. Instantly everyone else in his class noticed a difference.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:27 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
Because RTR vehicles are designed for bashing. Handling and tunability is not important. That is why they suck for racing and make it hard to enjoy the hobby. Yeah, they are cheap, but where is the value in trying to race a POS car?
The things that give you a car that you can learn with, are not the same things that make for a good racing car. The value is building muscle memory. The biggest value is having an excuse to go to the track. Sure, a nicer car is nicer, but what's the point if it's inaccessible?

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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
Everyone should ask themselves this question - "Have I ever thought that a specific r/c vehicle isn't fit for racing?" If you have answered yes to this question, then YOU are part of the problem with the hobby.
I have. I find anything lacking proportional control on at least one axis, is deeply unsatisfying. Of course, I have bought and played with about a dozen bit-charG cars over the years. Their lack of predictability always frustrated me.

Quote:
ANYTHING can be raced. *snip*
I'm not saying that we shouldn't help and/or encourage new people to buy the appropriate type of vehicle for specific classes. But we need to stop scaring people away from this hobby by making them feel like they need to spend thousands just to set foot on the track.
This is something that's reflected in the sales pitch I got at the local r/c track. They went out of their way to minimize the appearant cost of getting into racing.

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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
My first post in this thread stated that its not about the initial investment as much as it is getting the most out of their investment. More people will stay in this hobby if they spend $1000 and are treated with dignity and respect than if they spent $200 and get yelled at by "pros". Im sure you heard the fast guys screaming and yelling at marshals for not moving fast enough or hearing people getting yelled at for "hacking" when its just someone not being as good as a driver as everyone else.

I have seen it plenty of times first hand. Regardless of anything else, people need to stop being elitists and start bringing FUN and family values back into the hobby.
This is all true. Getting someone to spend the $1000 is really hard. They'll get yelled at the same, until you can fix that. I don't think you can fix that "tomorrow." But the $1000, you can fix "tomorrow". Plus or minus the time to get a shipment from horizon. The more people who aren't those elitists, the less their noise will matter. They can be drowned out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie_E View Post
We have 2 different goals in this thread.
One is Bill Kelly wanting something that doubles as a parking lot basher and knowing up front that the entire vehicle is a throw away if the class tanks from attendance.(post 129).

The other is overall what is a good investment, teaches driving skills and has an upgrade path. 99% of what 1/4milecrazy said is the truth here. It's the brutal hard truth, but the truth just the same. In this case, I would still say it comes down to USGT or A 21.5 pan car class based on WGT-R.
If something is cheap, I can get people to buy them. I think, investment grade chassis, already takes you out of cheap enough for people to buy on a lark.

Quote:
This leads me to the other reason people stay or go. It's the team drivers who take the time to offer some friendly setup help.
*snip*
Every track needs one of these guys. Every track owner should take care of these guys. They transform a place from just a track to a popular scene that you want to be part of.
Ambassadors. That's what they call them in other sports. It's something I go out of my way to do. When someone sees me messing around with r/c stuff outside, so long as i'm not driving something nuts, I happily hand over the controller for a minute or three. Heck, even some of my quadcopters have gotten the newbie touch a few times.

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Originally Posted by rescue119 View Post
I showed up and after the first quality one of the top guys came over to my little table and sat down. Told me that I was in the wrong class because of my skill level and setup.
That's excellent. Stories like that aren't common enough.

Quote:
Help them out anyway I can. Give them parts if the need. Never ask for anything in return. It's the people that bring other people into this hobby. Which in today's culture of everyone wins is lacking. It's not really a hobby thing as it is a culture thing imo
And that's good! Being a good person in the hobby is always good for growth.

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Originally Posted by (0000000000) View Post
Lowering cost is not the solution, which was the point of my original post in this thread.
Price is a problem still. It's not the only problem. But it is ~still~ a problem.

Quote:
I also feel, like others, that making a unique class with unique rules does not help things grow in the long run.
You're making things far more complex than they need to be. It shows being stuck in the mentality that you point out in the following paragraph.

Quote:
Making new people feel welcome and excited is the key.
yes, that's important. How can you do that? How do you get them driving?
Quote:
There is no fun in coming to the realization that you were in a bubble this whole time.
It's also no fun at all having to do several days of research, and still come out not knowing if you have something that's not going to set you behind.

Quote:
Have new racers run in the same events with experienced racers. They wont be "fed to the wolves". A-main guys will be A-main guys. F-main guys will have fun bumping around in the F-main. Mod guys will be mod guys. USGT guys will be USGT guys. Nobody is suggesting that new drivers jump into mod.
So they can get yelled at for being a rolling roadblock? For being an unpredictable driver? For not having the right things? For not knowing what the conventions are? Getting into VTA, Mod, Whatever, are all in same general ballpark, if you're buying good gear. What you're arguing for is "If you want to go racing, you need to break out the $1000-2000 and dive in the whole way."

Quote:
What having everyone together does, is have all participants following the same rules, under the same roof together.
This is what practice is for. You need to have a car to come in and practice with. What is ~that car~. If you buy something on the cheap end of whatever class you want to become serious about, you're setting yourself behind. "I" don't like muscle cars. I'm going into VTA because that's what the "slow" class is. At some point I'll pick up something fast, provided I can keep myself going.

Quote:
If a new guy shows up with a TT02 for their first year of racing in USGT, so be it. Let them have fun.
While someone barks at them, and looks down on them, for choices they didn't know they were making wrong for in the first place. And we're back to rolling roadblock. Do you want someone who's ~new~ ruining your lap count because they're doing three loops on the back stretch? Or they have't figured out braking and punt you off a corner because they are on a ballistic trajectory towards the outside curb?
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One of the issues with the hobby is that some new guys go "full retard"
That is an issue. Their money keeps the shops open, and provides a cheap aftermarket for us.

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You can't stop fools from wasting their money, and you can't stop impressionable minds from dreaming. With a good support system of helpful and welcoming experienced drivers, you can help teach.....those who are willing to learn. This goes back to my point in my original post on this thread. We cannot make or motivate people to do anything that they don't want to do, simply by lowering the cost of driving standardized cars. Making events more welcoming, where new racers understand what they are getting into, and what they need to do to get to the next level, is what needs to change at local tracks. New racers need to realize that having a TT02 with a 25.5 motor will help them better understand the sport, so that they will be able to handle an A800 with a 13.5 at a later date, if they choose to do so.
This really has nothing to do with what stops me from being able to get new people into r/c. Racing provides value. That's a value someone can't grasp, if they can't do it. If they're just getting into r/c to futz around with r/c cars, they're not going to buy a serious car, they're going to buy something to jump off of curbs and chase racoons with. Those have no progression into the serious end of r/c. That is, the end that teaches you about tuning, things that make you better with your real car, helps you appreciate full scale racing, and even makes you better at video games.

Now, you're not all wrong. You're just not in the same argument. You're mostly right, and you've pointed out things that really need addressing.

Just to bring this around, I want to find something to get people hooked on 1/10 racing. (Mind you, I think the solution is starting offroad with slashes...) As it stands, nobody I know is willing to plunk down $600 to start racing. Nor do they have the time or energy (yet...) to do the sort of exhausting research it takes to figure out how to build their own set of gear cheaply. And they don't have the experience to make even vaguely good choices.


It's totally not relevant, but Tamiya posted their championship video yesterday. 6hours of r/c racing. Some of it is spooky good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1gjIKk6Qz4
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