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Old 11-20-2016, 06:59 AM   #136
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Box stock Apex class?:
https://www.rcplanet.com/Associated_...FUo9gQode8YHSA

Rx, Tx, and Servo mods only. Box stock everything else.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:02 AM   #137
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Not really because RTR cars are not made for racing. They never will be. The slash is a terrible race chassis. Sure they are popular, I have even been throwing around the idea of a slash spec class at our track. But a Slash will never win a modified 2wd SCT against an SC5M.

I bought a 1/8 RTR and decided I want to race 1/8th scale buggy. I should have just went and bought a kit and built it because I spent twice as much in the long run.

Back in racings glory days there was no RTR kits. People dove in, and built kits, learned their cars and raced them. Racers were not disgusting animals that shunned newbs.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:45 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Zerodefect View Post
Box stock Apex class?:
https://www.rcplanet.com/Associated_...FUo9gQode8YHSA

Rx, Tx, and Servo mods only. Box stock everything else.
At that price point or slightly bellow we have the HPI RS4 Evo3 (brushed but includes a charger), Vaterra V100 (same as the RS4) and sub 200 there's the HPI e10(all included). I think a wal charger is better than nothing, at least for a starter. I don't know about alowing those mods, that wasy you will se 400$ radios and 100$ servos right away.
If that AE motor is the same I have (a 3300kv unsensored generic one) then it will be nice to drive with NiMH batteries. That motor/tire combo with lipo could be barely drivable though, making the brushed options more sensible. A truly box stock class.

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Not really because RTR cars are not made for racing. They never will be. The slash is a terrible race chassis. Sure they are popular, I have even been throwing around the idea of a slash spec class at our track. But a Slash will never win a modified 2wd SCT against an SC5M.

I bought a 1/8 RTR and decided I want to race 1/8th scale buggy. I should have just went and bought a kit and built it because I spent twice as much in the long run.

Back in racings glory days there was no RTR kits. People dove in, and built kits, learned their cars and raced them. Racers were not disgusting animals that shunned newbs.
On road cars go through less abuse than 1/8th and for a box stock class it would suffice but not ideal if one would progress to 17.5T for example.

Back then there wasn't higher end cars, they were all "equal" in technology making "mine is better than yours" a moot point. That's the intent with box stock racing.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:49 AM   #139
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The Slash was never meant to be a stepping stone into off road. It was made by Traxxas to coincide with their sponsorship of off road truck racing. They were built to be as scale as possible and hit a particular price point. But, as usual, a couple made their way to an off road track, a few people began racing them, then they began modifying them, and the next thing you know the Short Course Truck class was born.

How many people remember the box stock Slash class? What happened to that?
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:52 AM   #140
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Back then there wasn't higher end cars, they were all "equal" in technology making "mine is better than yours" a moot point. That's the intent with box stock racing.
Don't get me wrong, your idea would probably be great at your home track, and if it would work I am all for it. Especially if it will bring new people into the hobby. I am not arguing about what would work where you are. I am talking about the grand scheme. R/C racing is suffering all over the country. It desperately needs to be fixed. And I personally think that cheap entry level classes are not the way to do it,

A bunch of friends and I went to one of the area on-road tracks, CRC carpet on a super smooth subfloor. Great facility. My one friend brought his son along and a Tamiya M-05. The kid barley did 3 laps in one Q and 5 in the other. Kept pulling the car off because it was undriveable. Everyone else had modified M-05s that followed the TCS rules and they were fast and looked like fun. But nowhere near box stock cars. Had tons of money in them. Might as well run a VTA car for the money spent on the M-05s.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:59 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
The Slash was never meant to be a stepping stone into off road. It was made by Traxxas to coincide with their sponsorship of off road truck racing. They were built to be as scale as possible and hit a particular price point. But, as usual, a couple made their way to an off road track, a few people began racing them, then they began modifying them, and the next thing you know the Short Course Truck class was born.

How many people remember the box stock Slash class? What happened to that?
A couple places around here still run one. Mainly a local club. But I would love to bring one to my home track as a place for new racers to get acclimated to a racetrack.

I was planning on only changing a tire rule if the drivers of the class voted on running a better compound tire because the stock slash tires suck terribly on our clay. Scale modifications would be encouraged. Light bars, sounds, cool wheels, maybe even spec out a scale type tire. Would it fix the hobby? Probably not, but I think it would bring more business to our track. So in a way I totally agree with RTR spec classes on a local level, but it should NEVER be focused mainly on entry price.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:06 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
Not really because RTR cars are not made for racing. They never will be. The slash is a terrible race chassis. Sure they are popular, I have even been throwing around the idea of a slash spec class at our track. But a Slash will never win a modified 2wd SCT against an SC5M.

I bought a 1/8 RTR and decided I want to race 1/8th scale buggy. I should have just went and bought a kit and built it because I spent twice as much in the long run.

Back in racings glory days there was no RTR kits. People dove in, and built kits, learned their cars and raced them. Racers were not disgusting animals that shunned newbs.
I think you totally missed the point of the debate. Attracting newbies by throwing them in a mod class?!

Any car even the shittiest one is competitive in its class (ever heard of banger racing?). Trick is to keep the class even. That is what all those people who initiated the thread are talking about.

And the post above I think hit the nail on the head. The problem is not this that or the other, but the technology. As he said, in the old days all cars were equal because you only had one motor and one battery. Remove speed controllers, allow one battery and one motor only and you'll have equality.

But that is not the point.

There are places where competition is kept fair and low cost. Which goes to show the people who race have some impact on things as well. The rest is detail.

That's the kind of place that attracts people in the hobby.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:07 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
Don't get me wrong, your idea would probably be great at your home track, and if it would work I am all for it. Especially if it will bring new people into the hobby. I am not arguing about what would work where you are. I am talking about the grand scheme. R/C racing is suffering all over the country. It desperately needs to be fixed. And I personally think that cheap entry level classes are not the way to do it,

A bunch of friends and I went to one of the area on-road tracks, CRC carpet on a super smooth subfloor. Great facility. My one friend brought his son along and a Tamiya M-05. The kid barley did 3 laps in one Q and 5 in the other. Kept pulling the car off because it was undriveable. Everyone else had modified M-05s that followed the TCS rules and they were fast and looked like fun. But nowhere near box stock cars. Had tons of money in them. Might as well run a VTA car for the money spent on the M-05s.
The box stock cars are a quick "fix", they get some people in for a while. What would bring more people in would be a embracing mindset, competitive and fun racing like you say. Here we are still building that so we welcome any driver. Of course my case can't be used as a silver bullet but we as a whole will figure something. Like all sports if it isn't fun then it will shrink.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:26 AM   #144
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I think you totally missed the point of the debate. Attracting newbies by throwing them in a mod class?!

Any car even the shittiest one is competitive in its class (ever heard of banger racing?). Trick is to keep the class even. That is what all those people who initiated the thread are talking about.
No, I didnt miss it, hopefully I explained that in my other post. Every spec class was supposed to be the "even" class or "entry level". Look where they ended up. People will push the rules, always. Its part of racing. I can tell you right now if I had a kid that was going to get into one of those classes the first thing I would do is rebuild the entire RTR kit, replace bearings with ceramic, file fit every single pivot, rebuild shocks with exacting precision. The key is people will have fun whether they win or lose, whether they bought a $100 RTR POS or a $600 race kit, as long as they are treated properly. We have a pretty large 4WD SCT following at our local track, and people marshaling that class say that those drivers dont need the track swept like all other classes, or that the drivers dont deserve to be treated the same as the 2wd mod buggy guys. They paid the same entry fees. They are having the same battles on track, why is that class not taken as serious as the buggy classes?

People wont mind spending the money on a full blown race kit and electronics and racing in a sportsman/beginner/novice class if they are treated the same as the guys running the premier classes. This is NOT a cheap hobby, and trying to turn it into one is just devaluing it overall.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:03 AM   #145
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That kind of box stock intent would work well in a communist country, but not anywhere else. People want to their cars to be different, faster than the other guy so they can WIN !!! That's why those motor/battery of the week fly off the shelves so fast.....
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
At that price point or slightly bellow we have the HPI RS4 Evo3 (brushed but includes a charger), Vaterra V100 (same as the RS4) and sub 200 there's the HPI e10(all included). I think a wal charger is better than nothing, at least for a starter. I don't know about alowing those mods, that wasy you will se 400$ radios and 100$ servos right away.
If that AE motor is the same I have (a 3300kv unsensored generic one) then it will be nice to drive with NiMH batteries. That motor/tire combo with lipo could be barely drivable though, making the brushed options more sensible. A truly box stock class.



On road cars go through less abuse than 1/8th and for a box stock class it would suffice but not ideal if one would progress to 17.5T for example.

Back then there wasn't higher end cars, they were all "equal" in technology making "mine is better than yours" a moot point. That's the intent with box stock racing.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:09 AM   #146
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For example Spec Miata and Spec E30. They were (and might be) the "cheapest", funniest and
"fairest" racing ever conceived. Didn't take long for both classes to morph into expensive, not "fair" and less fun classes. Same with our classes, they will always be fun until a certain point, F1, Slash...TC... Weren't Stock classes meant as the gateway to racing? The common denominator is wallet racing.

I think it would be a better start to make our tracks a good place to be. For example two years ago I was set to do the Stock Championship, but then I read what was going on the tracks and the bad ambience and so on... In the end I choose not to attend the races, I had a car (with spares) and racing combo to race but if I didn't have fun because of others then it wasn't worth the expense.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:18 AM   #147
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For this to work, it needs to ~not~ be part of serious race days.

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Originally Posted by 1/4milecrazy View Post
The key is people will have fun whether they win or lose, whether they bought a $100 RTR POS or a $600 race kit, as long as they are treated properly.
They won't get treated at all if they can't go racing for the first time or three.

Essentially every paintball player starts out with a $150 "intro set" of gear. None of it is any ~good~ but it's ~theirs~. Over the following year, they find out what they like, what they aspire to, and go in that direction.

Same with slot cars. Though it's $100-150 there. Over the next few weeks, they get familiar with terminology, classes, and decide what sounds fun to them.

And it's the same with ~real~ racing. You can enter track days, or parking lot racing for just a couple hundred dollars, with stuff you already have. You get to see if you like it, without throwing huge money at it. There's even whole classes that the entire focus is keeping it cheap. Chump Car, and LeMons racing for example.

If you take a look at other expensive hobbies, there's always that "couple hundred dollars" entry point. RC car racing, is lacking that.

How they're treated is another important thing. But you need to get them somewhere to ~be treated~ first.
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:26 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Zerodefect View Post
Box stock Apex class?:
https://www.rcplanet.com/Associated_...FUo9gQode8YHSA

Rx, Tx, and Servo mods only. Box stock everything else.
I really like the Apex. I've got 2. And it's probably the most driven vehicle I've got over past few years. It could work as a stand alone stock class. What I know understand is that it's faster then VTA or USGT.
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:36 AM   #149
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Because RTR vehicles are designed for bashing. Handling and tunability is not important. That is why they suck for racing and make it hard to enjoy the hobby. Yeah, they are cheap, but where is the value in trying to race a POS car?
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:59 AM   #150
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I can tell you right now if I had a kid that was going to get into one of those classes the first thing I would do is rebuild the entire RTR kit, replace bearings with ceramic, file fit every single pivot, rebuild shocks with exacting precision.
This right here is the problem! For one, why would you do that to your kid's car, instead of letting your kid enjoy tinkering and playing with the car, rebuilding the shocks? Second, why in the world would you spend the money on ceramic bearings for an intro class, intended to be inexpensive?? If your kid is just getting into the hobby, s/he will never notice the difference ceramic bearings provide.

These things go directly against the spirit of such an introductory class. The goal shouldn't be winning at all costs, it should be having fun at only a little cost. Once your kid understands enough on taking care of his/her car, can drive a clean lap, and feels like the challenge is waning, your kid can decide to move up to another class or stay having fun with friends. Perhaps the entire group of friends can move to a new class together, making room for other newbies.
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