R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Like Tree17Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-28-2017, 02:44 PM   #166
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,404
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanfor18 View Post
Ok I would like to hear everyone's opinion. I am currently running the D08, and love the car. My question to everyone is do I upgrade to the D09, is it worth spending the money on the new car. I run mostly outdoor asphalt tracks from small to large size tracks.
Sorry not a asphalt racer, so I got nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
Has anybody mount the ARTS kit? Did you install it with the included items? What kind of settings are you using? Reducing toe or increasing toe in curves?
Another item more used in asphalt racing. Hopefully someone like John T or Alex P has some info on the 2 above topics. I think the items included are what you would use and you're probably looking for increased toe.
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Team VBC HK
Team R1WURKS
EMR Factory LLC
AWESOME Graphics
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 03:57 PM   #167
Tech Master
 
Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 1,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Fanfor18, here in Australia we only race on outdoor track ranging from asphalt to painted concrete so I will give you my thoughts
Given that you are happy with the d08 it does pose you with a small dilemma given timing of your questioning
I guessing the new model will be out in about 2-3 months, what changes/improvements will there be over the d09 ( been pondering this myself) so does one wait for the next model ??
Of do you get a good deal on the d09 dynamics kit which here in Australia ATM are an exceptional deal & these kits have all the options you need
Back to your original question
I found the 09 better than the 08 for a couple of reasons
The flex adjustment you can get through the motor mount ( it is different to the 08 )
The short shocks,they seem to ride the bumpier outdoor tracks a little better tham the longer ones on the 08
I found the 09 about 2-3 tenths quicker & more consistent over a 6 min run than my 08 on the same tracks using the same electrics & doing back to back runs same day/ same conditions
Hope this helps you in some way & not confuse you on what to do
Sorry for the long winded answer but I hope it helps
Graham
__________________
VBC RACING AUS--HOBBYWING--RC MAKER--
MAD GRAPHICS--BITTY DESIGN

Last edited by Professor; 07-29-2017 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Added more
Professor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 01:32 PM   #168
Tech Fanatic
 
Airwave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 756
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

So nothing? :-(
Airwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 03:09 PM   #169
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 138
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor View Post
Fanfor18, here in Australia we only race on outdoor track ranging from asphalt to painted concrete so I will give you my thoughts
Given that you are happy with the d08 it does pose you with a small dilemma given timing of your questioning
I guessing the new model will be out in about 2-3 months, what changes/improvements will there be over the d09 ( been pondering this myself) so does one wait for the next model ??
Of do you get a good deal on the d09 dynamics kit which here in Australia ATM are an exceptional deal & these kits have all the options you need
Back to your original question
I found the 09 better than the 08 for a couple of reasons
The flex adjustment you can get through the motor mount ( it is different to the 08 )
The short shocks,they seem to ride the bumpier outdoor tracks a little better tham the longer ones on the 08
I found the 09 about 2-3 tenths quicker & more consistent over a 6 min run than my 08 on the same tracks using the same electrics & doing back to back runs same day/ same conditions
Hope this helps you in some way & not confuse you on what to do
Sorry for the long winded answer but I hope it helps
Graham

Graham,
i appreciate that explanation. One more question for you, is there an advantage with the d09 over the d08 if I have the short shocks currently on my d08.
__________________
Brandon Smith
fanfor18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 03:40 PM   #170
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,404
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
Has anybody mount the ARTS kit? Did you install it with the included items? What kind of settings are you using? Reducing toe or increasing toe in curves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
So nothing? :-(
From other cars that I've run, the items included are what you would use and you're probably looking for increased toe. What items are you questioning, or is there something missing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by fanfor18 View Post
Graham,
i appreciate that explanation. One more question for you, is there an advantage with the d09 over the d08 if I have the short shocks currently on my d08.
I can answer this as a general question. The different motor mount on the D09 can control the flex in finer increments than the mount on the D08. Now if your really close on a track for flex requirement, you'll probably not notice much of a performance difference. So its not really the shock package that makes the BIG difference between the 2 cars. We have a racer on the original long shock D08 and that car is pretty dialed in as well. The only thing that I can think of between the 2 shocks is that the long shock would have more volume of oil so it should dissipate the heat a little better, but if this is and advantage over the lower cog I have no idea, they "feel" the same to me.
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Team VBC HK
Team R1WURKS
EMR Factory LLC
AWESOME Graphics
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 07:13 PM   #171
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 138
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
From other cars that I've run, the items included are what you would use and you're probably looking for increased toe. What items are you questioning, or is there something missing?




I can answer this as a general question. The different motor mount on the D09 can control the flex in finer increments than the mount on the D08. Now if your really close on a track for flex requirement, you'll probably not notice much of a performance difference. So its not really the shock package that makes the BIG difference between the 2 cars. We have a racer on the original long shock D08 and that car is pretty dialed in as well. The only thing that I can think of between the 2 shocks is that the long shock would have more volume of oil so it should dissipate the heat a little better, but if this is and advantage over the lower cog I have no idea, they "feel" the same to me.


Thank you for the explanations from everyone
__________________
Brandon Smith
fanfor18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 07:58 PM   #172
Tech Master
 
Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 1,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

fanfor18
I tend to agree with Gary on the shock theory, but as I said for me on some of outdoor tracks which are somewhat bumpy, I have found the tbb shocks a little better for me over the standard length on my 08, may also just be a personal thing
__________________
VBC RACING AUS--HOBBYWING--RC MAKER--
MAD GRAPHICS--BITTY DESIGN
Professor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 09:00 AM   #173
Tech Fanatic
 
Airwave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 756
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
From other cars that I've run, the items included are what you would use and you're probably looking for increased toe. What items are you questioning, or is there something missing?
Nope nothing's missing... It's just that with the included items and without any explanations, I've tried some configurations, but none of them can provide additional toe in the curves, only the opposite...

I'll take the time tomorrow to show you my current configuration, and the "most probable configuration" I can achieve with included parts... Honestly, why can't VBC includes some user manual in the hop-up parts???
Airwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 10:07 AM   #174
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,404
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
Nope nothing's missing... It's just that with the included items and without any explanations, I've tried some configurations, but none of them can provide additional toe in the curves, only the opposite...

I'll take the time tomorrow to show you my current configuration, and the "most probable configuration" I can achieve with included parts... Honestly, why can't VBC includes some user manual in the hop-up parts???
LOL, thats a understatement. Not sure why there isn't some associated information with the hop up parts when they come out. But if you or any other VBC drivers have questions, please feel free to ask here and I'll try to answer, and I'm sure Edward will have input as well. I checked on the FB page and there isn't much there either, so this is probably the better place to get some answers.

Your rear steer issue, if you have access to Ryan Makers book, he has a pretty good explanation as well as some initial setup information.
I can tell you that on the Serpent, the inner mount point dictated the required spacers to actually manipulate the steering, and this could either add or subtract toe as the suspension compressed going thru the corner. It was really effected by the link angle and the length of the link. So if yours is subtracting toe, you probably have the link angle the wrong direction. You want it to pull as the suspension compresses.
It will be interesting to see your information plot on the rear steer. (I wonder if some more info on this could be gleamed from the Xray site, and/or others that use this system, as, in theory, they should all be the same. Just the inner mount points would be different).
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Team VBC HK
Team R1WURKS
EMR Factory LLC
AWESOME Graphics
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 11:16 AM   #175
Tech Fanatic
 
Airwave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 756
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

That's an interesting point. It seems that Xray drivers are using ARS to remove toe from the rear in the curves... It seems that it allows the car to rotate better... The only obvious thing is that the neutral setting is when the link is parallel to the arm.

By the way I'm more and more convinced that active toe is 1% chance of going faster, 99% chance of driving a potatoe...
Airwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 01:13 PM   #176
Tech Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
Nope nothing's missing... It's just that with the included items and without any explanations, I've tried some configurations, but none of them can provide additional toe in the curves, only the opposite...

I'll take the time tomorrow to show you my current configuration, and the "most probable configuration" I can achieve with included parts... Honestly, why can't VBC includes some user manual in the hop-up parts???
You'll need the inside pick up point on the link to be lower than the outside, so that under compression the link needs to "shorten" the distance between the two pick up points. The opposite being when the inside point is higher, the outside point has to move out as the suspension compresses towards a 0 degree link angle.

The outside point essentially moves on a curve. When the link is parallel to the lower arm, any movement up or down must move the point on the steering arm/rear hub inwards. When you want more toe, you must make the point move further away from center, and when you want less you make the point move closer to center.
JeanGirard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 01:29 PM   #177
Tech Fanatic
 
Airwave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 756
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Im totally aware of the principle. The only thing I point is that I have no idea how to achieve that with the parts included into the ARTS kit...

Ok so pictures...

The first one is a picture of it should be mounted on the D09, with the included parts:


This photo shows how I'm using the ARTS, following the advices of an official VBC driver from France, which explains me that's how they were used to mount ARTS on D08:


Now the comparison, you can clearly see that on the rear right arm the angle with the arm is the opposite of what you could want...


And here how the D08-style installation has a proper angle:


You can also see on the top first picture that steering stands are used in the ARTS kit...

So, at the end, when you compress the shocks, you have +0.5 with the D08 installation and -0.5 with the D09 installation.


I've also tried to put the ball above the knuckles to get the link with a proper angle but it is excessive and you get something like +2 on compression.

You can't add shims on the steering stands enough because it will touch the upper deck

You can't use lower support for the insid ball because it will touch the belt...

Seriously, what were they trying to achieve there???
Airwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 02:06 PM   #178
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,404
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
Im totally aware of the principle. The only thing I point is that I have no idea how to achieve that with the parts included into the ARTS kit...

Ok so pictures...

The first one is a picture of it should be mounted on the D09, with the included parts:


This photo shows how I'm using the ARTS, following the advices of an official VBC driver from France, which explains me that's how they were used to mount ARTS on D08:


Now the comparison, you can clearly see that on the rear right arm the angle with the arm is the opposite of what you could want...


And here how the D08-style installation has a proper angle:


You can also see on the top first picture that steering stands are used in the ARTS kit...

So, at the end, when you compress the shocks, you have +0.5 with the D08 installation and -0.5 with the D09 installation.


I've also tried to put the ball above the knuckles to get the link with a proper angle but it is excessive and you get something like +2 on compression.

You can't add shims on the steering stands enough because it will touch the upper deck

You can't use lower support for the insid ball because it will touch the belt...

Seriously, what were they trying to achieve there???
I didn't realize that they ARTS system changed up between the the D08 and the D09, with the D09 adding those red standoffs. So I can certainly see your issue. (I had to search on VBC site to see the 2 different kits kisted.) In my opinion the red standoffs aren't used to get the adjustment you want, apparent in your readings. The red standoffs would push the steering out and take away toe on compression for sure. Why are they trying to do that, I can't say.
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Team VBC HK
Team R1WURKS
EMR Factory LLC
AWESOME Graphics
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 02:09 PM   #179
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,404
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
That's an interesting point. It seems that Xray drivers are using ARS to remove toe from the rear in the curves... It seems that it allows the car to rotate better... The only obvious thing is that the neutral setting is when the link is parallel to the arm.

By the way I'm more and more convinced that active toe is 1% chance of going faster, 99% chance of driving a potatoe...
That may be a over estimate on the faster guess, LOL.
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Team VBC HK
Team R1WURKS
EMR Factory LLC
AWESOME Graphics
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 06:20 PM   #180
Tech Champion
 
TryHard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 5,271
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
Im totally aware of the principle. The only thing I point is that I have no idea how to achieve that with the parts included into the ARTS kit...

Ok so pictures...

The first one is a picture of it should be mounted on the D09, with the included parts:


This photo shows how I'm using the ARTS, following the advices of an official VBC driver from France, which explains me that's how they were used to mount ARTS on D08:


Now the comparison, you can clearly see that on the rear right arm the angle with the arm is the opposite of what you could want...


And here how the D08-style installation has a proper angle:


You can also see on the top first picture that steering stands are used in the ARTS kit...

So, at the end, when you compress the shocks, you have +0.5 with the D08 installation and -0.5 with the D09 installation.


I've also tried to put the ball above the knuckles to get the link with a proper angle but it is excessive and you get something like +2 on compression.

You can't add shims on the steering stands enough because it will touch the upper deck

You can't use lower support for the insid ball because it will touch the belt...

Seriously, what were they trying to achieve there???
Why not ditch the red standoffs, and put a ball nut with shims to get the right height with the D09 position. Then you can lower the inner link as needed. This is how the Infinity guys have been doing it on their ARS.

FYI, on the XRAY, in kit positions with no shims, gives around 0.3-0.4 of toe gain under compression.
__________________
| THard.co.uk | Xray | MuchMore |
TryHard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 01:10 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net