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Old 04-05-2017, 02:15 AM   -   Wikipost
R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Xray T4'17
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Welcome to the XRAY T4'17 Thread & Wikipost! Here you will find some useful info, tips and tricks as well as setups that are used by several team drivers. This wikipost is a work in progress and should continue to develop over time. Feel free to add anything you feel is useful to the community!

New for 2017:
The T4'17 comes available with either a Graphite chassis, or Aluminum Flex chassis. We recommend the Graphite chassis for starting on asphalt, and the Aluminum Flex for starting on carpet. The 2017 also comes standard with the floating swing rack as an option, and the Composite Graphite arms included. Most of the team prefers the Graphite arms for both asphalt and carpet, though sometimes Hard arms may be ideal for asphalt depending on the conditions. This year's car also comes with the new "In-line Flex Adjustment" which provides many more flex adjustments than in the past allowing you to focus & fine-tune on forward/back flex and side-to-side flex both together & independently. Additionally, the Ackermann has been moved back by 1mm and the spacing of the RF blocks is wider, creating 0.5° less rear toe from previous T4 models.

Tips & Tricks:

Alex Hagberg's Tech Tip Tuesday articles

How to mount your Protoform LTC-R Body
Setting static camber
How to mount weight on your chassis Part1
How to mount the rear wing on Protoform bodies
Simple troubleshooting guide
How to mount the battery on your chassis
How to glue your front tires for CRC Black carpet with Eric Anderson
Mastering the Sanwa M12S: Utilizing Exponential and RMode
How to mount weight on your chassis Part2
Mastering the Sanwa M12S: Utilizing TH-Hold

Team driver Tim Wahl posted some very useful build tips for the T4'16 on Facebook as he worked through building a new kit. These tips will still apply on the current model.

1- Carbon Parts
2-Suspension
3-Solid Axle and Differential
4-Bulkheads & Drivetrain
5-Driveshaft (ECS & CVD)
6-Front & Rear Suspension
7-Tweak
8-Anti-Roll Bar
9-Battery Fix (OPTIONAL)
10-Bumper & Body
11-Shocks
12-Steering

Center Brace:
The manual indicates using a 2mm shim under the center brace. The gap is actually 3mm, so a 3mm shim should be used here.

Tuning Note:
On Carpet we have found that adding screws or doubling up the graphite brace will make the car react quicker to steering input, & change direction faster. Raising the graphite brace off of the aluminum bulkheads by placing a shim under it on the front and rear holes will reduce response. We are working on getting more info on the turnbuckle & asphalt applications.

New Graphite Hubs:
Xray have recently released some additional Graphite hubs for the T4 lineup. The 4° Graphite C-Hub has been out for some time and is known to improve steering on entry, and in general makes the car turn better. This has been the go-to c-hub on asphalt for many on the Xray team, though it is not needed on high bite carpet. The Graphite rear hub tends to make the car more stable, especially on corner entry. We are still working on gathering input on the new Graphite steering block, but for the moment feel that it should improve steering response. All Graphite parts are approximately 1g lighter than the Hard or Medium options.

ARS Tuning courtesy of Ed (TryHard):
If you set the ARS up with no shims under either inside or outside ball positions, it actually adds toe-in under compression, at around 1° at 5.2mm ride height (how much it adds depends how much the car compresses, obviously )

Adding shims reduces the amount added (1mm under one of the links gives about 0.5°), until the link has 2mm worth of shims (1mm either side, or 2mm on one side) makes the ARS neutral. Adding more shims then turns it into reducing toe in under compression.

Whilst that might sound a bit backwards, it's actually not quite as simple as it sounds. By having the links to add toe, you gain forward traction. Also consider as the car rolls, the inside wheel is in negative compression, and the outside in compression. So the inside is toe-ing out, and the outside toe-ing in, so the whole rear is then 'steering' in the direction of the turn. Obviously the inside wheel has a lot less influence than the outside as it's far less loaded, but the effect is still there.

Optional & Tuning Parts to consider:
XRA301196 T4 Graphite Upper Deck 1.6mm V2
XRA302254 Composite Steering Block - Graphite
XRA302334 Aluminum C-Hub Block - Caster
0° - Orange *Only for ARS*
XRA302383 Composite C-Hub Right – 4
° - Graphite (ECS)
XRA302384 Composite C-Hub Left – 4
° - Graphite (ECS)
XRA302711 Brass Front Lower 1-Piece Suspension Holder - Front - FF
XRA302803 1.3mm Front Anti-Roll Bar
XRA303360 Composite Upright 0° Outboard Toe-In - Graphite
XRA303802 1.2mm Rear Anti-Roll Bar
XRA305137 Steel Solid Axle Driveshaft Adapters - HUDY Spring Steel *Highly recommend*
XRA305242 Composite Drive Shaft Replacement Cap 3.5mm – Orange – Strong (QTY 4)
XRA305351 Aluminum Wheel Hub – Offset “-0.75mm” – Black (QTY 2)
XRA305352 Aluminum Wheel Hub - Offset
“+0.75mm” - Black (QTY 2)
XRA306191 T4 Graphite + Aluminum Fully Adjustable Battery Holder
XRA308264 4S Spring-Set Progressive C=2.5-2.8 (QTY 2)
XRA308276 4S Spring-Set C=2.7 (QTY 2)
XRA308286 4S Spring-Set C=2.6 (QTY 2)

XRA308039 Aluminum Progressive Shock System – Set (QTY 2) *Only for asphalt*

Recent Setups:
Bruno Coelho - IIC 2016 - High Bite Carpet - Modified
Alex Hagberg - AOC HK 2016 - Med Bite Asphalt - Modified
Jan Ratheisky - AOC HK 2016 - Med Bite Asphalt - 13.5
Chris Adams - Halloween Classic - High Bite Carpet - Modified
Chris Adams - ROAR Region 9 - Med Bite Asphalt - Modified
Craig Xavier - US Indoor Champs - High Bite Carpet - 17.5
Bruno Coelho - ETS Rd1 Hrotovice - Med Bite Carpet - Modified
Craig Xavier - Stock Wars - High Bite Carpet - 17.5
Jan Ratheisky - DHI Cup - Med Bite Carpet - 13.5
Chris Adams - Texas EOS Rd 1 - High Bite Carpet - Modified
Alex Hagberg - Snowbird Nationals - High Bite Carpet - Modified
Robbie Dodge - Snowbird Nationals - High Bite Carpet - 17.5
Jan Ratheisky - TITC - High Bite Asphalt - 13.5
Drew Ellis - ROAR Carpet Nationals - High Bite Carpet - Modified
Eric Anderson - ROAR Carpet Nationals - High Bite Carpet - 17.5
Martin Crisp - Canadian Nationals - Medium Bite Carpet - Modified
Martin Crisp - Canadian Nationals - Medium Bite Carpet - 17.5
Dan Hamann - MN State Champs - High Bite Carpet - 17.5

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Old 08-18-2016, 05:30 AM   #31
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The rear upper bulkheads don't appear to have the same holes as the 2026 kit version in that picture.
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Old 08-18-2016, 07:12 AM   #32
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i would love a shaft drive car but that would almost be a step backwards.
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Old 08-18-2016, 07:49 AM   #33
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That's right, but you cannot be sure that's the car he ran with as they always have multiple cars on their stand, one or two to run and one for pictures... That's an old habit... Remember the time where TRF drivers were using Yokomo arms and parts... Not a lot of pictures exist to show that...
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:45 AM   #34
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The Xray team were running standard '16 cars (plus the various available upgrades) at the final ETS round. With a table for applying controlled additive it's pretty hard to hide the car you're running.

I'm not expecting anything radical. It would be great to see something different, but we've yet to see anything radical that is actually a step forwards. Xray won both TC classes in the ETS with standard cars, across a 6-round series on carpet and asphalt.

Occasionally a manufacturer creates something that works well for certain track conditions (like the A700 being good on high-grip carpet). But across the whole range of tracks and conditions, the standard TC platform still seems to be the winner.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
Probably not gonna happen, it seems like only Tamiya left doing something new in their TA series, the rest (t4 bd7 trf etc) are practically samey with minor tidbits here and there
You obviously have not seen the Schumacher cars, which have changed significantly from one generation to the next in the last few years.

But I find it funny how people still confuse "novelty" with new.

Tamiya is the least innovative of all manufacturers. They are doing novelty cars things with irrelevant product lines because it doesn't matter and they keep their fanboys happy by taking their money. At top level, nobody takes big risks (save for the soon to be released Serpent, which will be interesting to follow if it is going to be a trailblazer or another dead end). Just look at the TRF cars. The most bland cars on the market right now.

Not to mention the novelty you speak of is not that new either. Kawada has had more than three generations of top notch single belt, centralised chassies back 10-15 years ago. Others have done it even before that.

Then again, you have newcomers like Gizmo but these people have a long way to go before you can call their platform proven and they use a lot of already existing parts from other manufacturers (which seems to have become a burden for their supply chain as I predicted some time ago - but let's hope this is just a momentary hiccup and they move to 100% in-house production - no mean feat for a small company).

Even Awesomatix moved away from their initially over engineered cars aimed at capitalising on the superior efficiency of shaft drive simply because they found some problems can't be solved within the constraints of acceptable cost AND have the car competitive at the same time.

And you can also take a look at Capricorn who have a really nice car with innovative suspension holders and minimal footprint bulkheads.

As far as I see, the name of the game is symmetry, and I think Xray doesn't have much to do. Maybe do away with the battery tape slots.

Apart from that, everybody seems focused on minor tweaks, perhaps more to do with streamlining production and minimising costs, especially in the current economic climate.
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Last edited by niznai; 08-18-2016 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:04 AM   #36
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Established companies like Xray, Tamiya and Yokomo have been iterating the same design for 15+ years now. Think about the countless hours of testing and engineering that have gone into making the cars as they are today. Cars that work well on every surface, from the highest grip carpet to dusty parking lots. None of these design decisions were an accident. They came about because of knowledge that was earned at great expense, sending drivers to every corner of the planet to test their cars in every condition imaginable. There's no way they're going to throw that all away and start fresh.

The only thing we've really seen happen is that some of the more radical designs have shown glimpses of being very competitive in specific conditions. It's possible that traditional sedans may be vulnerable to cars that are purpose built for a certain surface, or certain kinds of traction.

I don't think the on-road market is big enough for a company to justify two different platforms for different surfaces like you're seeing happen with off-road cars. So until that happens, your choices are going to be general purpose cars with safe designs that work everywhere, perhaps with some compromises, and specialty cars that work extremely well under a much smaller set of conditions, also with compromises.

Also consider that the companies making traditional sedans have the deepest pockets, and can afford to pay the best racers. Even if a smaller company did produce a superior car, we may not fully realize it since they can't afford the drivers to show what it's capable of at the highest level.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:27 AM   #37
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From China News T4'17 had new Chassis , Motor Mount & Servo Mount
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:23 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
That's right, but you cannot be sure that's the car he ran with as they always have multiple cars on their stand, one or two to run and one for pictures... That's an old habit... Remember the time where TRF drivers were using Yokomo arms and parts... Not a lot of pictures exist to show that...
No you can't be sure. But the fact photos exist of actual new/protype parts (the servo mount, and the shaved bulkheads on Bruno's car) gives a good indication of the level of development.

As for the last comment, that kind of proves the point. There were zero photos then, just as photos of TRF cars for the 6months before the 419X were virtually non existent.

But in this case, Xray are happy to have the cars photographed.

And as said, with control goop stations, it makes it bloody hard to hide anyway.
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:24 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC MARKET View Post
From China News T4'17 had new Chassis , Motor Mount & Servo Mount
Hopefully he new chassis is still backward compatible!
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:39 PM   #40
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The motor mount on the photo doesn't have the M3 nut and it looks like that the mount is bolted straight to the chassis.
The other thing what I noticed is that it looks like there is some space between the layshaft holder and the upper deck, without raising the upper deck.
But on the end we all can't know the changes to the production version. He is running probably many different incarnations of prototypes and only few will be used on the end.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:38 PM   #41
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Anyone have more images?
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:41 AM   #42
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Hag berg has posted a pic of allegedly is the new '17 on his Facebook. As expected, very minor changes it seems.
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Old 08-19-2016, 04:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
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Hag berg has posted a pic of allegedly is the new '17 on his Facebook. As expected, very minor changes it seems.
Yep. Can't see servo or motor mount properly.

Interesting to see he has done like me and removed the carbon pieces from the battery retainers. I broke one of mine and actually like it better with just the alloy adjustable piece
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Old 08-20-2016, 02:04 AM   #44
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Preview announced for August 24th by Xray at the worlds
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:21 AM   #45
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Bumping this thread as it has the name correct, unlike the other one...
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