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Old 08-17-2016, 11:36 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by nwagner View Post
So what is your suggestion to improve turnouts for it?
Not to say you think there are, but there are no panaceas for improving turnouts in Mod, or any other class that is struggling.

Not a digression, rather a parallel example to highlight the difficulty of answering the question. Has there ever been a class more seemingly prepared to succeed than World GT? Hatched by the best minds in the game, hosted by the biggest events on the calendar, embraced by many of our finest drivers, cheap to set up and maintain, a dream to drive, close intense racing displayed at the club and national level...and yet. It's a caution against too much faith in a spec, no matter how well thought out.

So, what ecosystem will produce more Mod 1/12th racers?

Club Racing
1. It takes committed individuals who show up to race it regularly—not just to practice—to club race it. This is really it, and obviously a circular answer to the question.

2. Tracks shouldn't destroy cars. Small tracks can be Mod 1/12th-friendly. The Japanese rail around bull rings all the time, but look close and you'll see softer barriers. Soften up our tracks. Use dots instead of hard apexes. It may be that Clik-Trak is not the last word in track barriers.

3. Be patient with yourself and others. Mod 1/12th is hard and takes time. As in, how long it takes to develop a golf game (warning: another sport with declining participation) or learn to fly fish: a lifetime.

Regional and National Level Events

1. Host the class, particularly at regional events.

2. Hope those committed individuals at the club level show up to race.

3. Some innovation and willingness to deviate from standard practice is maybe called for. Seed the heats and field mains that group like abilities. If that means a 4-car A main and a 3-car B main, so be it. This is not a difficult exercise, it just takes doing. I think most would agree that an exploding gong show of wildly varying abilities at the medium and big events adds little luster to the class.

All that said, it's a bit of special pleading for a vanishingly small enterprise isn't it? It's like we expect racers in other classes, especially the generally healthy spec varieties of 1/12th, to allow that Mod 1/12th somehow matters in a unique way to the ethos of the sport and is worth making exceptions for.

Pro 10 used to be a thing. It was one of only two electric onroad world titles awarded. But, it got too fast, the fun bled out, and what was once something became nearly nothing at all.

The same thing is happening to Mod 1/12th right now. Parts of the Mod 1/12th world are taking steps to avoid that fate. Perhaps Mod 1/12th participation in the UK and EU is not as far gone as in the U.S. and they turn it around.

But if so, we'd be mistaken to think it's all about the motor/ESC spec while missing the totality of the environment in which they thrive.

P.S. I'm curious to know whether Japan is considering a change?
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:48 AM   #107
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PutAwayWet has the right idea. We need more mod club racing. I once went to a race weekend where there were FOUR heats of 13.5 touring and no mod racers. People need to embrace the speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-nZNGIOsBQ

This is what mod club racing looks like. Notice that none of us are as fast as Josh but we were mostly under control and had fun. I considered my run a success when I went faster than this tracks 13.5 hotshot.
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:52 PM   #108
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I dunno Wet, I can only speculate from what I've seen. I do know that trying 6.5 blinky at our race has literally doubled our entries for it. Last year we had 9, this year we are at 18 plus a few wanting to run it on the wait list. Not to say that is a proven solution as it has a novelty factor involved that has enticed a lot of the 17.5/13.5 guys to try it. We'll know more after the event in Oct and see the opinions.

There are disagreements of the restricted wind but most of those guys are still willing to try it for the sake of taking some action in trying to revive that class. If most agree it has potential and racers are motivated to go further down the road in exploring options toward a national movement that's all I can hope for.

We offer a more forgiving track, using flappers. At those speeds though, it is still usually catastrophic on impact. Ironically, the majority of 12th racers that I've encountered do not like dots for whatever reason.

Your ideas to nurture the class are good if stock racers had the desire and motivation to try it. The current available power and grip + the avg U.S. track size pretty much dissuades most though.

I feel like the commitment to mod is now purely track time, which most do not have. Whereas in it's heyday a lot of the commitment was spent on the bench at home searching for that ounce more of efficiency in the motor, battery, and chassis. Pure speculation on my part though.

My big picture opinion of what's wrong with onroad is that the avg club racers cannot or will not attempt to run the classes that the factory drivers run due to the insane speeds compared to the offroad top tier, so there's a natural fracture between the stock and mod guys. 2wd buggy stock guys, for example, can throw a mod motor in at a large event and see where they stand without kitting their chassis. Nobody in their right mind does that for 12th open mod on carpet.
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Old 08-17-2016, 03:18 PM   #109
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Tracks shouldn't destroy cars. Small tracks can be Mod 1/12th-friendly. The Japanese rail around bull rings all the time, but look close and you'll see softer barriers. Soften up our tracks. Use dots instead of hard apexes. It may be that Clik-Trak is not the last word in track barriers.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Clik track is great for parts retailers.

Our local group has used their travel experiences to build a car safe, competitive and consistent track which we all respect and appreciate. Its a real bummer to go to bigger out of town series races only to make an attempt in vain to keep the mod twelf off the pipes.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:04 PM   #110
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Just for reference...

Mod 12th 2005 IIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZJeDp8dnlE

Mod 12th 2014 IIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnT3RGdkWU
Today's 17.5 looks almost as fast as 2005 mod...
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:17 PM   #111
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Today's 17.5 looks almost as fast as 2005 mod...
That's just not true. The bottom end of old brushed hardware was immense. You can drive 17.5 today with the throttle pinned wide open, you sure as hell couldn't do that with one of these. Yes, their top speed is limited due to needing to make time but for 3200mah or whatever these guys cells were they are ripping it around this relatively tight, technical track.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:22 PM   #112
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Brian - THANK YOU!!

Montana - I complained about this to folks at RC Car Action/Xtreme years ago. They jammed off-road and RTR trucks down the RC community's throats while on-road faded from those magazines. No doubt they shifted to where their main advertising dollars went.

Howard - "But I don't think any of these ideas fit the concept of a class called "modified". Enough said... MODIFIED

jiml - The point is that they have tried and regardless of scale we can learn from their mistakes or gains. The main thing is to look at our other thriving classes and break down the facts/performance of what draws people to a class, evaluate a direction to try and make a positive outcome. Neutering a class to 6.5 spec makes it spec. It also hurts even more for the US racers that compete Internationally. 6.5 spec only puts us further behind the rest of the World.

RBLove - AMEN!! Everyone gets a trophy!!

RedBull - So what's the difference in longer races and a reduction in battery capacity?? I'm missing the logic there other than it will make major events run even longer, tire and car wear worse all that will add cost. Battery reduction actually REDUCES cost.

PutAwayWet - WGT failed I think for one main reason... Traction roll. In order to be fast in that class, the cars (mine included) were always on the edge of traction rolling. When you have to drive wide open (spec 13.5) on the edge of flipping, people lose interest. Oh and Japan, change to this?? NOT A CHANCE. Japan went to 13.5 BOOSTED for their Super Stock class...

nwagner - DOTS launch Mod 1/12 cars actually doing a lot more damage. Unless they are a sticker "dot" on the track, anything with a dome shape will launch them. Again, it can be done if done right. The guys willing to try it are willing to because it's SPEC...lol... They race SPEC, this is a faster version of that.

Modified will grow when club tracks, races and INDUSTRY COMPANIES get their best guys out of stock. Yes, I ran it against my better judgement this past year+ and I can tell you now, I will NEVER race it at an event again. All the guys signed up for Mod - Should NOT be in 17.5... Wayne, Joe, Witta, Knapp and probably the entire A Main at the Champs, Birds and any other major race should not be in 17.5. They should all be in 13.5 and Mod. Want to fix 1/12 Mod, start with the stock lifers that are all good enough to move up and out of the class that should be for the newest racers in our sport.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:23 PM   #113
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Desert - Actually, has anyone run an old "brushed" car lately? They have no where near the bottom end of brushless.... They were much less punchy and smoother on the bottom to mid.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:26 PM   #114
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Desert - Actually, has anyone run an old "brushed" car lately? They have no where near the bottom end of brushless.... They were much less punchy and smoother on the bottom to mid.
I should have specified, the cars in this video have a lot of bottom end rip compared to spec motor cars today, so the assertion that "ten years ago's mod is today's 17.5 spec" is just not true. The punch of mod 10 years ago is no comparison to todays modified motors.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:39 PM   #115
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Actually... it is... We ran 10.5 brushless (basically blinky) about 5-6yrs ago and it easily out ran brushed 1/12 Mod. 13.5 for sure does now and I bet 17.5 is close. I still have all my brushed Mod stuff so that is something we will find out soon enough!!
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:50 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Actually... it is... We ran 10.5 brushless (basically blinky) about 5-6yrs ago and it easily out ran brushed 1/12 Mod. 13.5 for sure does now and I bet 17.5 is close. I still have all my brushed Mod stuff so that is something we will find out soon enough!!
Wow. I wouldn't have guessed based on the video. I never raced brushed mod and have just recently been trying to race brushless mod well enough to not be embarassed by it, so I lack a direct comparison.

Just so I can say that I'm not talking out of my ass and making all of this up, I made my claim based on a few race weekends I had when I got back into 1/12 where I running a 27 turn brushed stock and 4 cell NiMH against other racers running 1 cell 13.5 with boost. The brushless guys were noticeably faster than I was after about 30 feet down the back straight, but my older brushed car with a decent stock motor and 3800(?) cells had more low end to the point where I may have been the best mid-field car. This was circa 2010. Now none of us were national event racers, so who knows how fast others were going at the time, but I based my claim that old-school cells and brushed motor 1/12 scale had good bottom end on that and not just hand-waving.

Josh has a direct comparison, so I'll go with his analysis of the situation.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:20 PM   #117
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RedBull - So what's the difference in longer races and a reduction in battery capacity?? I'm missing the logic there other than it will make major events run even longer, tire and car wear worse all that will add cost. Battery reduction actually REDUCES cost.
For club racing, longer races are just more fun, more track time
Forget all that lengthy qualifying
1 3m seeder, and 2 or 3 15m mains


But, yes I see your point for the big races
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:20 PM   #118
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I am most intrigued by the idea of limiting the battery capacity. I do think it needs to be done such that it doesn't become a battle of who can find a way to cheat the system. It seems this would allow it to stay open as mod should be, but add a simple way to let the racer control the situation through driving and set-up.

I race because I want to get to a level of what I see with mod. It is what inspired me to race, back when I began and now. I hope a good solution is put in place to keep it alive. I am glad to see a bunch talking about it. Lets hope some good action goes with that.

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Old 08-17-2016, 05:32 PM   #119
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Brian - THANK YOU!!

Modified will grow when club tracks, races and INDUSTRY COMPANIES get their best guys out of stock. Yes, I ran it against my better judgement this past year+ and I can tell you now, I will NEVER race it at an event again. All the guys signed up for Mod - Should NOT be in 17.5... Wayne, Joe, Witta, Knapp and probably the entire A Main at the Champs, Birds and any other major race should not be in 17.5. They should all be in 13.5 and Mod. Want to fix 1/12 Mod, start with the stock lifers that are all good enough to move up and out of the class that should be for the newest racers in our sport.
And there it is! Finally, someone is brave enough to say the real problem with racing these days, well done!

There should be NO sponsored (of any kind) drivers in the lowest stock class, period.

We also need to get rid of all the other classes at big races, should be just TC and 12th scale, with three levels in each, any driver can run only two of the three levels, i.e, 17.5 and 13.5 or 13.5 and mod, but not mod and 17.5. If the driver is sponsored at any level, then out of the bottom stock class. This is the way it used to be when I started racing in the mid 80's, both off road and on road were like this. Back then, it was stock(sportsman) and expert(mod) pick one. And you got bumped up if you were too good for sportsman.....

Save the fun classes for club racing and local events.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:47 PM   #120
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That's just not true. The bottom end of old brushed hardware was immense. You can drive 17.5 today with the throttle pinned wide open, you sure as hell couldn't do that with one of these. Yes, their top speed is limited due to needing to make time but for 3200mah or whatever these guys cells were they are ripping it around this relatively tight, technical track.
You are taking my comment from the wrong perspective. All I meant is that this was mod and the final speed was not that far away from today's 17.5. Of course these cars had ridiculous power to weight ratio, but the fact was that for many reasons, they couldn't put it to the ground as today and they had to skillfully manage their race. It was not just a race of reflexes where speeds are so high that driving has more to do with anticipating where the car will be then actually seeing the car.
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