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Old 08-16-2016, 12:33 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
And impossible.

Let's pick one idea and take an informal survey, and let's see what happens.
Not sure why you say impossible. The mAh device has not been built for our purpose yet, but a rev limiter has. Rev limiting does work, so not impossible. It is digital, so very accurate. Set it to a number and it is exactly that.

Wire gauge can be effected by many things, even the material the wire is made of will change the resistance it has. Not the best method because of this factor. But ideas give light to solutions. Lets keep them coming.

Some of the other methods would be to just change the race formats as suggested in the post #73 above.

it does help to see what others think, but these opinions should come from being informed, accurately, about what is possible.
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Old 08-16-2016, 12:39 PM   #77
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Not sure why you say impossible. The mAh device has not been built for our purpose yet, but a rev limiter has. Rev limiting does work, so not impossible. It is digital, so very accurate. Set it to a number and it is exactly that.

Wire gauge can be effected by many things, even the material the wire is made of will change the resistance it has. Not the best method because of this factor. But ideas give light to solutions. Lets keep them coming.

Some of the other methods would be to just change the race formats as suggested in the post #73 above.

it does help to see what others think, but these opinions should come from being informed, accurately, about what is possible.
Instead of using wire gauge, you could use a certain amp fuse that can be easily check. Will do the same thing as small wire and be easier to replace. Plus, they could be ROAR certified fuses, .
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Old 08-16-2016, 12:43 PM   #78
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Id be much more inclined to try 6.5 blinky than dick around with any of the cell limiting, voltage limiting or wire size restrictions. Those things would all be kind of unsafe with the current draw on 1s.
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:05 PM   #79
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Not sure why you say impossible. The mAh device has not been built for our purpose yet, but a rev limiter has. Rev limiting does work, so not impossible. It is digital, so very accurate. Set it to a number and it is exactly that.
Because all devices have a tolerance. No 2 devices are exactly alike. Remember the good old stock days, where teams would buy 50 motors, take them all apart, measure each one, match the best arm with the best can, and sell the rest. Just imagine a big race, one racer leading the entire way, and dumps coming to the finish. Was it because he used too much power, or was it because the other guy's limiter allowed just a few more milli amp hours? RC Tech would explode with that one.

what about longer races? 2 minute qualifiers/15 minute mains?
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:22 PM   #80
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Why are 540 motors still used in 1/12 cars? It seems like you could save so much weight by going to a smaller sized motor without losing much of any power. Rev limiters also seem interesting, sorta like a restrictor plate in nascar, this could also be implemented for stock classes.

What about different bodies and/or tires? It seems like making the car harder to drive would slow it down a bit to create better racing. I don't think there are any real battles in mod 1/12 other than someone crashing and some one else going by or two drivers being totally different speeds.
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:46 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
Instead of using wire gauge, you could use a certain amp fuse that can be easily check. Will do the same thing as small wire and be easier to replace. Plus, they could be ROAR certified fuses, .
I'd have to get the Certified fuses
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:55 PM   #82
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It's seriously interesting the number of people in this thread who think things should just be left alone, I'm betting that a good portion of you don't run mod 12th scale and even if you do don't run it well (I don't run it well myself).

Even some of the best mod 12th scale drivers in the US recognize that it's too fast, yet the horde of people here on RCTech doesn't agree? The number of US drivers capable of driving a mod 12th scale is silly low these days. That's something we all need to accept, I'm not good enough to run it, you're not good enough to run it so lets see what our options are.

I also think it's silly all the suggestions being posed in this thread, things like a fuse box? Capacity limiting? All of these are going to make more work for tech and with very little gain. Why can't we just limit the motor or the speedo or both? So much easier.

Lastly, to think it's going to turn into a "motor and battery way" is just plain silly. I ran 6.5 this weekend and can safely say it's fast enough that the majority of people are still not going to be able to drive it. Might there be a few guys who can drive it clean for 8 minutes fully strapped? Sure. But for the majority of us in this thread and that race trying to get an extra 1/10th out of our motor is going to be far from a big concern. And as far as batteries go, I was taking about 5000mah out of a pack running 6.5 blinky so it's not like these cars are going to be dumping.

We need to accept that technology has changed and we too must change. 10 years ago no one here stood a chance of getting a stock motor capable of winning a big race and now anyone can get a good motor and battery from a variety of different sources. So many people use "if I only had a better motor or battery" as the reason they are not winning, that's simply not true.
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:58 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
Instead of using wire gauge, you could use a certain amp fuse that can be easily check. Will do the same thing as small wire and be easier to replace. Plus, they could be ROAR certified fuses, .
Unfortunately, tolerances on fuses are much larger than tolerances on wire diameter. But I liked the idea!
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:45 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Because all devices have a tolerance. No 2 devices are exactly alike. Remember the good old stock days, where teams would buy 50 motors, take them all apart, measure each one, match the best arm with the best can, and sell the rest. Just imagine a big race, one racer leading the entire way, and dumps coming to the finish. Was it because he used too much power, or was it because the other guy's limiter allowed just a few more milli amp hours? RC Tech would explode with that one.

what about longer races? 2 minute qualifiers/15 minute mains?
Coming from the analog era of equipment, I understand how that might still be thought of as an issue. With a digital device, it would be a counter, so in the case of a RPM limiter, it would be counting the number of revolutions the motor turns and so cutting off the RPM output at the preset number built into the device. It could be off by a small amount, a few RPM, and still would be closer than anything else we have been talking about, like wire gauge/current limiting. A counter is a counter.

The devices I speak of are digital, meaning they don't have as big of a tolerance issue like a purely analog device would of days past. You would not see enough difference even if you bought 5000 of the devices. They would all allow only 50,000 RPM, or in the case of limiting mAh, 5000 mAh to be used if that was the number we used. They would not be adjustable. They would only have one setting, the legal one. Could someone build there own, maybe. I suppose it could be a device you are handed to put in your car. Simple piece, it goes in line with sensor and motor, and ESC and receiver. Again, the RPM device already exists. I have one. $20. It is adjustable, and not high enough range for Mod, but it would probably be able to be made to a spec RPM easily enough. Likely for less money and size since no adjustability switches would be incorporated like the current device.

The same could be true of a mAh limiting device instead of the RPM limiter. It would count the number of mAh that pass from the battery to the ESC, and when the amount it is preset to is hit, it would turn off the motor much like a voltage cutoff does. Almost all modern ESC's have enough computing power that it could be built in. A spec could be determined, and a lot like blinky mode, could be sanctioned and made a standard. The only issue I see with this method is for the start of the race. It would need to be reset after any practice laps were taken to give everyone the same amount of available mAh from the start of the race. At the same time, it could just be what it is, and if you risk taking a few extra laps in practice to not finish, that could be a choice a racer would take. I suppose some method, similar to a fuel up at the start of nitro race could be figured out. It could be keyed by race central, if a RF method was employed. Although that would lead to someone figuring out how to trigger that, so time would need to be spent coming up with a good solution. Maybe there isn't one for that, maybe there is.

Ultimately, if you had a mAh amount that you were allowed, no one would really gear and run right to the limit since a single bobble could make you not finish. All would always plan for a bit of reserve. Just like the days of past when the batteries did limit you. Now, with our current batteries, you could use the steadier voltage that our lipo's can provide, the mAh limit would give you the preset amount of fuel.

By the way, most chargers can be set to put in so many mAh into the battery, so its not a foreign technology to put that system into use for the battery output we would want to employ. Its just a discharge meter. When it hits the preset amount of mAh used, it shuts down the output to the motor.

I do agree with longer races, as another option. It put emphasis of consistent driving skill and set up parameters.
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:59 PM   #85
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This is probably a question for Howard: Can motors be detuned with ESC programming in a way that can be easily duplicated and consistent across brands like blinky? Could the idea of a rev limiter, or some kind of performance limiter be baked into ESC firmware? Thinking something like mod blinky that's detuned significantly, but consistently. Perhaps that could open the door to going spec ESC profile but still leave motors and batteries unmolested.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:00 PM   #86
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I ask because on my XR10, for example, I can set the drive frequency from 8k to 16k, and a 5.5 will go from feeling insanely fast to barely being faster than a 13.5. Wondering if we could spec on something like that.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:01 PM   #87
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PS, blinky was my idea, haters.

The Case For Spec ESC Profiles
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:05 PM   #88
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PS, blinky was my idea, haters.

The Case For Spec ESC Profiles
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:36 PM   #89
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Some of this is a little extreme on ideas, the goal isn't to make modified for everyone. The goal is to slow them enough to have a full race with a A and B main again. A blinky class for everyone already exists
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:46 PM   #90
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Ok.... I'll apologize now for anyone who may be offended... I love 1/12 Modified (as it should be) and the rules/direction people are talking is totally wrong on so many levels.

#1 - IT'S MODIFIED... Not another spec'd out, VTA/F1 class for people who are just joining the hobby. This is for the racers that have spent a few years and want to race against the best on the planet. PERIOD. Sponsors and companies have to get some integrity and give NOTHING to races in stock. You want a ride, move up!! That's how it used to be when mod was actually the class everyone watched and everyone wanted to win.

#2 - F1, NASCAR and every other form of racing have tinkered with rules to improve racing. Rev limiters are the WORST thing possible for racing. Drive a great line, get a run on a guy and.... Rev limiter stops the pass onto the straight as it goes into wuss mode.... This is why NASCAR went to low downforce on those large tracks - create lifting, driving/passes with straight speed - NOT DRIVING SPEC WIDE OPEN. F1 added push to pass buttons to aide in overtaking. We want to limit this?

#3 - Folks, what makes Modified hard these days is the bottom end/throttle response being lightning fast. When 1/12 cars can pull wheelies at will, I think it's a dead give away. Taking away boosted speedos will make you tune for a balance of top speed and bottom end. This is a good thing as well as the SIMPLIFICATION of Modified for the racer wanting to move into Mod.

#4 - ELECTRONICS WILL NEVER BE PERFECTLY, IDENTICALLY MATCHED SO IT'S FAIR. If someone develops a system they claim this, they are full of it or it's going to ADD A TON OF COST to the equation of changing from stock or super stock. Conspiracy theories all over the place, cheating and eminent death of the class.

#5 - Modified didn't used to be just about balls out speed. It used to be about driving, precision, race management (tires/batteries). Every time you shorten braking zones (tons of drag brake we use now) and can just jam on the throttle, it turns into what we have now - Only a few guys that can hang on or in spec races, rarely a great show because no one lifts and everyone bounces off walls, each other because they can't give a foot or your done. TRUE MODIFIED IS OVERPOWERED but it limited in another way.... Which leads to....

#6 - Modified TC is being run on the SAME TRACKS with none of this talk!!!!!! Mod TC at the Halloween Classic is 6.5 right? It's maybe 10.5? Why?? Cause it's limited by tire performance and a drastic reduction in downforce vs. the 1/12 bodies. Oh and it's 2s using nearly the same winds and 1/12 Mod....

So... Back to my same comments before, limit the fuel tank or decrease grip (I prefer both).

It's been about 23 YEARS (wow I'm getting old) since I won my first 1/12 MODIFIED ROAR NATIONAL. 14x3 with 6-cells on asphalt in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's so frustrating to watch the decline, small surge, decline over and over again bringing it to this current point.
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