62LikesLet's talk modified 1/12
08-15-2016, 02:42 PM
#62
Damn I agree with Hanulec, better get to the Doctor
08-15-2016, 03:18 PM
#63
I would vote to keep it open. If people want to run a 6.5 or anything else they feel like they have the best shot with....so be it.
I did it at Cleveland and had fun....and fun is why everyone starts this hobby. If more people were less intimidated by driving with someone with a 3.0 or 2.5 ...more would do it. The fields will sort themselves out by laptimes and like skilled drivers will be with their driving peers.
I did it at Cleveland and had fun....and fun is why everyone starts this hobby. If more people were less intimidated by driving with someone with a 3.0 or 2.5 ...more would do it. The fields will sort themselves out by laptimes and like skilled drivers will be with their driving peers.
I don't think doing the same that has been done will help.
-a
08-15-2016, 03:22 PM
#64
I agree with stepping down motors only. MOD 6.5, SS 10.5, Stock 17.5 makes the most sense so the progression in speed, knowledge/commitment/talent, and cost are all in-line with each step up. For along time we've needed a method of progression from Stock to Mod...far to many mod-capable drivers still running SS and Stock cause the leap to mod is just to risky as few run the class as a staple at their track. I am also a fan of spec tires in Stock to level to playing field cause that is where people should start the sport and learn to tune and drive not deal with being a back-marker all the time.
I really like the idea, but I would avoid any battery changes...just stick with motor it's all you need to make this class progression work IMO
I really like the idea, but I would avoid any battery changes...just stick with motor it's all you need to make this class progression work IMO
08-15-2016, 04:05 PM
#65
But, it's like fans. We don't run fans to run cooler, we could gear down for that; we run fans to run higher gears. We push everything right back to the threshold.
A mandatory 4.0V charge would just mean boosted 3.5t motors for everyone.
Everyone that's left, that is.
08-15-2016, 04:37 PM
#66
I think that if the rule becomes 6.5 suddenly instead of low-stress motors under 5 turns we will see people wringing the piss out of 6.5 turn mods to get similar speeds. Will it let you drive more ham-fisted? Probably, but not as much as you think. It will add another difficult facet to an already difficult class and is probably a net-zero proposition in terms of class turnout.
However, if 6.5 becomes a sort of standard, a 6.5 1S is nearly identical to the performance as a 13.5 2S. If I were the race director I would heavily consider letting them run as almost everybody owns a 13.5 and a 3200mah 2s pack that fits a 1/12 scale is cheaper than a new motor and has uses outside of pan car racing, where a 6.5 motor is one of those "between classes" winds that is neither used in onroad or offroad racing.
However, if 6.5 becomes a sort of standard, a 6.5 1S is nearly identical to the performance as a 13.5 2S. If I were the race director I would heavily consider letting them run as almost everybody owns a 13.5 and a 3200mah 2s pack that fits a 1/12 scale is cheaper than a new motor and has uses outside of pan car racing, where a 6.5 motor is one of those "between classes" winds that is neither used in onroad or offroad racing.
08-15-2016, 04:53 PM
#67
why am I seeing concern over modified speeds turning off new drivers? that shouldn't even be on their radar.
all blinky 6.5 would do, is turn the class into a battery and motor war like all other spec classes.
I used to be able to run 3-4 generation older motors in 13.5 touring super stock - that was taken away by blinky rules and I had to buy a new motor to even come close to the pace.
I stopped running 17.5 touring stock for a season, went back to find it hasn't changed and bought my speed to get back on pace.
My modified 1/12 car has not changed in 3 years and I've been as competitive as my driving without the need for a new motor.
My modified touring car has not changed in 3 years and I have not found myself in need of a new motor to keep up.
stop blinkying everything. seriously.
all blinky 6.5 would do, is turn the class into a battery and motor war like all other spec classes.
I used to be able to run 3-4 generation older motors in 13.5 touring super stock - that was taken away by blinky rules and I had to buy a new motor to even come close to the pace.
I stopped running 17.5 touring stock for a season, went back to find it hasn't changed and bought my speed to get back on pace.
My modified 1/12 car has not changed in 3 years and I've been as competitive as my driving without the need for a new motor.
My modified touring car has not changed in 3 years and I have not found myself in need of a new motor to keep up.
stop blinkying everything. seriously.
08-15-2016, 07:48 PM
#68
Damn... I love the #3 idea. Of course then we would need "handout" wire to make sure no cheats on the wire size.
I agree the rules should be altered for today's technology but still open enough to keep mod a mod class and not just a faster spec class. Couple things that might help:
1. Eliminate boost and esc timing. Leave the escs in blinky. Think of it as a forced restrictor plate in real racing.
2. Change the weight requirement of the car. Make it so you again have to manage the power to weight ratio accordingly and keep enough battery on board to finish the race without destroying your car
3. Forget option 1 and option 2, do whatever you want but you are limited to 20gauge wire to the battery and motor to esc.
4. weight limit on the battery. pain to tech and a moving target with each new battery production
Probably not the solution but aimed at keeping mod more of an open platform that it used to be. These are just my 2cents on the subject.
1. Eliminate boost and esc timing. Leave the escs in blinky. Think of it as a forced restrictor plate in real racing.
2. Change the weight requirement of the car. Make it so you again have to manage the power to weight ratio accordingly and keep enough battery on board to finish the race without destroying your car
3. Forget option 1 and option 2, do whatever you want but you are limited to 20gauge wire to the battery and motor to esc.
4. weight limit on the battery. pain to tech and a moving target with each new battery production
Probably not the solution but aimed at keeping mod more of an open platform that it used to be. These are just my 2cents on the subject.
08-16-2016, 05:59 AM
#69
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
Come to think of it, the second most exciting 1/12th scale mod race that I ever saw at Cleveland was the year that Mike Dumas completely had the field covered all weekend. He was truly in a class of his own. In the mod main he was completely checked out and gone, disappeared into the sunset, race over......well hold on, that was until one of his motor wires apparently got hot enough to unsolder itself......and his speeding bullet of a completely dominant car just died abruptly about 3/4 of the way thru the race to deny him the win that surely would have been his. Any chance that sort of thing would happen with 20 gauge wires?
08-16-2016, 07:15 AM
#70
Come to think of it, the second most exciting 1/12th scale mod race that I ever saw at Cleveland was the year that Mike Dumas completely had the field covered all weekend. He was truly in a class of his own. In the mod main he was completely checked out and gone, disappeared into the sunset, race over......well hold on, that was until one of his motor wires apparently got hot enough to unsolder itself......and his speeding bullet of a completely dominant car just died abruptly about 3/4 of the way thru the race to deny him the win that surely would have been his. Any chance that sort of thing would happen with 20 gauge wires?
08-16-2016, 09:54 AM
#72
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
A comment on comparing 1/12 Mod to other forms of RC racing:
1/8 nitro - 125cc fuel tank since I've raced RC.
1/10 nitro - 75cc fuel tank since I've raced RC.
1/12 mod has an ever expanding tank. First 1s Lipo were barely 5000mah and raced with effectively blinky speedos. 1/12 mod speed was not a complaint. Add boost plus now nearly or above 8000mah and we are having these talks. I started 1/12 with 1200mah batteries... Imagine what they would do with nitro engines with nearly 7x's the FUEL!!!!
I personally think blinky simplifies things drastically that make it much easier for spec racers to jump to mod (1 less item in the learning curve). I don't race anywhere near as much so I've spent countless hours on a chassis dyno playing with speedo settings to get a linear feel that isn't going to cook things. Taking that out of the equation is key IMO.
I would love to stay out of a "spec" motor war - I don't care what anyone says, it's gonna happen at 6.5. Leave it open and let's see the speed difference when you charge to 4.1v, 4.0v, 3.9v and how many mah you lose. I've ordered two of the CRC shorty 1s packs to test. So we may not run 3.5's but run 4.0 or 4.5 to make time but I guarantee racing will be better, closer and easier for spec racers to run Mod.
1/8 nitro - 125cc fuel tank since I've raced RC.
1/10 nitro - 75cc fuel tank since I've raced RC.
1/12 mod has an ever expanding tank. First 1s Lipo were barely 5000mah and raced with effectively blinky speedos. 1/12 mod speed was not a complaint. Add boost plus now nearly or above 8000mah and we are having these talks. I started 1/12 with 1200mah batteries... Imagine what they would do with nitro engines with nearly 7x's the FUEL!!!!
I personally think blinky simplifies things drastically that make it much easier for spec racers to jump to mod (1 less item in the learning curve). I don't race anywhere near as much so I've spent countless hours on a chassis dyno playing with speedo settings to get a linear feel that isn't going to cook things. Taking that out of the equation is key IMO.
I would love to stay out of a "spec" motor war - I don't care what anyone says, it's gonna happen at 6.5. Leave it open and let's see the speed difference when you charge to 4.1v, 4.0v, 3.9v and how many mah you lose. I've ordered two of the CRC shorty 1s packs to test. So we may not run 3.5's but run 4.0 or 4.5 to make time but I guarantee racing will be better, closer and easier for spec racers to run Mod.
Last edited by Josh Cyrul; 08-16-2016 at 10:10 AM.
08-16-2016, 10:42 AM
#73
A lot of answers, and ideas for answers come up, but often identifying the problems needs to come first. Do we have a good list of those, so we can go down that list and try solving each, or as many as we can to find a path to take?
The main question is, number of racers participating, so its what causes that is what we are seeking a solution to.
Looking at what has worked for years, and keeps coming back is important, but trying what sounds far fetched doesn't mean its a bad idea either. Its good to look at many ideas, even if they sound odd at first. You never know...
One of the things I see people bringing up often is management of your resources during a race. It used to be part of racing, now it is less so. So a few ideas of how that can be brought back into it, have now come up. Here are a couple other ways that cause thinking about "what you put out on the track" racing resources could come into play. Longer races. What if you had to run 20 or 30 minutes for a main? Tire choice as well as battery would come into play to ensure finishing as part of making it to the podium. More cars on the track to help lessen number of heats since each race is longer so race day wouldn't change is necessary. I think less qualifying heats, maybe just one that is 10-15 long with your 5 or 10 best consecutive laps to determine your starting position. Seems like single fast lap doesn't put the long main strategy into play as well since we need to have multiple mains, unlike other forms of racing where all make the field for one full main. More cars on the track would also put driving challenges, meaning more traffic will force better driving etiquette, into play. You would have more passes to make, so all would have to drive more with that in mind too, avoiding breakage being important obviously, so also adding to cleaner driving styles. On track mental challenge is needed, and eventually that could mean we see better drivers overall as well. Right now, with our short frenetic sprint mains, if you blow out for any reason, there is not enough time to get back, so you are just hoping that everyone else blows out so you can get back in the mix. That doesn't seem like a good way to race. Nitro mains are usually longer than 5 minutes, so it is possible for the driver to be able to handle it. We can adapt our battery usage and tire choice to go longer too. For those that have participated in enduros, we have all seen close finishes, so the racing can be tight in longer races. I'd venture a guess that more cars would be within striking distance of winning near the end of a 20-30, maybe even 15-20 is enough. It would take a bit of adoption time for all to adjust equipment, but given how the once a year enduros have gone around here, some close finishes, I really don't think it will take long for racers to adjust.
If the idea of keeping formats the same as we have them now are preferred, but limiting Mod somehow is what is desired, why not go the rev limiter method? Many disliked the idea for spec and stock classes, but maybe in mod, a restrictor plate is needed. Thats simple, rev limiter would do it. They are available, and cheap. You would still have to be strategic with many aspects of set up, but overall terminal velocity would be dropped to a better level for more drivers to handle. More would think about trying to race mod. Also, everything everyone has now would still work, just add a $20. part to the sensor circuit and back to racing.
Just as a background, I started racing competitively when I was 10, in the early 70's, and have raced 1/1 through 1/87 scale cars. That doesn't mean I have all the answers, but I have been around a lot of racing, and just want to share some thoughts from what I have accumulated over the years. I will never stop adding to that base, and appreciate what everyone else brings into this as well. :-)
-a
The main question is, number of racers participating, so its what causes that is what we are seeking a solution to.
Looking at what has worked for years, and keeps coming back is important, but trying what sounds far fetched doesn't mean its a bad idea either. Its good to look at many ideas, even if they sound odd at first. You never know...
One of the things I see people bringing up often is management of your resources during a race. It used to be part of racing, now it is less so. So a few ideas of how that can be brought back into it, have now come up. Here are a couple other ways that cause thinking about "what you put out on the track" racing resources could come into play. Longer races. What if you had to run 20 or 30 minutes for a main? Tire choice as well as battery would come into play to ensure finishing as part of making it to the podium. More cars on the track to help lessen number of heats since each race is longer so race day wouldn't change is necessary. I think less qualifying heats, maybe just one that is 10-15 long with your 5 or 10 best consecutive laps to determine your starting position. Seems like single fast lap doesn't put the long main strategy into play as well since we need to have multiple mains, unlike other forms of racing where all make the field for one full main. More cars on the track would also put driving challenges, meaning more traffic will force better driving etiquette, into play. You would have more passes to make, so all would have to drive more with that in mind too, avoiding breakage being important obviously, so also adding to cleaner driving styles. On track mental challenge is needed, and eventually that could mean we see better drivers overall as well. Right now, with our short frenetic sprint mains, if you blow out for any reason, there is not enough time to get back, so you are just hoping that everyone else blows out so you can get back in the mix. That doesn't seem like a good way to race. Nitro mains are usually longer than 5 minutes, so it is possible for the driver to be able to handle it. We can adapt our battery usage and tire choice to go longer too. For those that have participated in enduros, we have all seen close finishes, so the racing can be tight in longer races. I'd venture a guess that more cars would be within striking distance of winning near the end of a 20-30, maybe even 15-20 is enough. It would take a bit of adoption time for all to adjust equipment, but given how the once a year enduros have gone around here, some close finishes, I really don't think it will take long for racers to adjust.
If the idea of keeping formats the same as we have them now are preferred, but limiting Mod somehow is what is desired, why not go the rev limiter method? Many disliked the idea for spec and stock classes, but maybe in mod, a restrictor plate is needed. Thats simple, rev limiter would do it. They are available, and cheap. You would still have to be strategic with many aspects of set up, but overall terminal velocity would be dropped to a better level for more drivers to handle. More would think about trying to race mod. Also, everything everyone has now would still work, just add a $20. part to the sensor circuit and back to racing.
Just as a background, I started racing competitively when I was 10, in the early 70's, and have raced 1/1 through 1/87 scale cars. That doesn't mean I have all the answers, but I have been around a lot of racing, and just want to share some thoughts from what I have accumulated over the years. I will never stop adding to that base, and appreciate what everyone else brings into this as well. :-)
-a
Last edited by oldrcr; 08-16-2016 at 10:58 AM.
08-16-2016, 11:10 AM
#74
Just to confirm to what Josh is checking into, if I read it right, its about charging to a specific voltage, which will effect mAh availability, or is it just to see a lower voltage to effect speed? In which case the rev limiter could be used.
If we were looking for fuel tank limitation, we would need is a mAh cutoff device. Meaning you can run any battery, and an electronic device monitored your usage for the run and basically shut off motor power at a specified amount of mAh used. It would be like running out of gas. I don't recall if something exists like that, but it seems feasible.
Nice, simple, logical. :-)
If we were looking for fuel tank limitation, we would need is a mAh cutoff device. Meaning you can run any battery, and an electronic device monitored your usage for the run and basically shut off motor power at a specified amount of mAh used. It would be like running out of gas. I don't recall if something exists like that, but it seems feasible.
Nice, simple, logical. :-)
Last edited by oldrcr; 08-16-2016 at 11:22 AM.
08-16-2016, 11:34 AM
#75
Just to confirm to what Josh is checking into, if I read it right, its about charging to a specific voltage, which will effect mAh availability.
So what we would need is a mAh cutoff device? Meaning you can run any battery, and an electronic device monitored your usage for the run and basically shut off motor power at a specified amount of mAh used. It would be like running out of gas. I don't recall if something exists like that, but it seems feasible.
Nice, simple, logical. :-)
So what we would need is a mAh cutoff device? Meaning you can run any battery, and an electronic device monitored your usage for the run and basically shut off motor power at a specified amount of mAh used. It would be like running out of gas. I don't recall if something exists like that, but it seems feasible.
Nice, simple, logical. :-)
One thing we all should have learned by now is that any technological restriction will be usurped by someone with better knowledge. I love the 20 gage wire idea, but you just know someone is going to try and pass 19.5 gage wire through. Even Josh acknowledges the spec motor wars. How many people are aware there is a ROAR rule limiting the charge current to 1C? How many people have seen that enforced?
There are some great ideas here, but we're all over the place. Battery/motor/speed control/tire/wire restrictions are great, but how can they be enforced? And I think the last thing we need is 3 12th scale classes.
We also need tracks that are willing to try new ideas. There may be a handful of racers willing to try something new, but there's also the group that's going to "The Big Race" coming up and they want to practice for it using the current format.
Let's pick one idea and take an informal survey, and let's see what happens.