62LikesLet's talk modified 1/12
08-14-2016, 01:51 PM
#46
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
Chicky and Josh are two of the tiny handful of guys who can actually handle a modern mod 1/12th scale car and yet both of them have posted that the speeds have gotten out of hand. Both have recommended that the available power needs to be reduced. We should listen to their input and value their expertise. After all, who else would know better what is needed in order to revive mod 1/12th racing?
08-14-2016, 02:36 PM
#47
I just want to throw this out there.
All those years ago when 12th scale was formed, the race time of 8 minutes was chosen because there was no chance in hell you would make run time if you ran flat out. Sure faster motors were available but you didn't run them because you needed run time. 12th mod wasn't about being the fastest, it was about being the smoothest. And I remember running 12th mod because it was cheaper than running stock. Back then you couldn't rebuild stock motors, so to keep up you needed the latest motor available.
The club we ran at had 3 classes, stock (which was supposed to be for the beginners), mod (for the rest of us), and Expert, for those with the higher skill levels. And you had to qualify for expert.
If there's one thing we should have learned over the past few decades is you cannot control speed by regulating equipment. As soon as you make rules for a class, someone figures out how to go faster within those rules.
What has to change is the format of racing. The race lengths should be where you have to think about what you're doing, not just have the fastest stuff. We should seriously consider shortening qualifying heats and drastically lengthening the mains. Put the emphasis on race strategy, not on flat out speed.
But one thing I have learned over the years is racers hate change. Mike's idea of starting this thread is a good one, but I fear it will change nothing. I hope I'm wrong.
PS blinky sucks!
All those years ago when 12th scale was formed, the race time of 8 minutes was chosen because there was no chance in hell you would make run time if you ran flat out. Sure faster motors were available but you didn't run them because you needed run time. 12th mod wasn't about being the fastest, it was about being the smoothest. And I remember running 12th mod because it was cheaper than running stock. Back then you couldn't rebuild stock motors, so to keep up you needed the latest motor available.
The club we ran at had 3 classes, stock (which was supposed to be for the beginners), mod (for the rest of us), and Expert, for those with the higher skill levels. And you had to qualify for expert.
If there's one thing we should have learned over the past few decades is you cannot control speed by regulating equipment. As soon as you make rules for a class, someone figures out how to go faster within those rules.
What has to change is the format of racing. The race lengths should be where you have to think about what you're doing, not just have the fastest stuff. We should seriously consider shortening qualifying heats and drastically lengthening the mains. Put the emphasis on race strategy, not on flat out speed.
But one thing I have learned over the years is racers hate change. Mike's idea of starting this thread is a good one, but I fear it will change nothing. I hope I'm wrong.
PS blinky sucks!
But for fun. Fun to me is not winning, it is a couple cars running the track looking like a sparkler on the 4th of July, nose to tail. Doesn't matter the finish or the class, if you can see and even better, participate in a race like that, that's RC heaven in my book.
08-14-2016, 07:44 PM
#48
I think the individual has to know if he should be running mod or not .. I myself have been practicing at 360 with 6.5 blinky. I think it's what boosted 13.5 was .. I think it's very controllable and way easier on tires/chassis but I don't know if it will make racing any better because I do believe the top 5% will still be laps ahead .....To the elite that are running 3.5 boosted these things will feel like toys with 6.5 blinky
That said if I was running mod and was four laps down from leader or pace I would not continue running it .. I would know it's not a class for me....
As for stock I think they should be locked timing motors as well as stock maybe be turned down to 21.5 motors. ( this would help new comers to class as well as put more experience drives to a super stock or expert class like let's say 10.5.... I mean you look at the 17.5 classes and see the same semi pro and pro guys at the top all the time anyway...
Out of the box thinking here. 21.5 lock timing stock spec tire
Super stock 9.5 or 10.5 blinky spec tire
Mod. Open speedo motor tire etc
That said if I was running mod and was four laps down from leader or pace I would not continue running it .. I would know it's not a class for me....
As for stock I think they should be locked timing motors as well as stock maybe be turned down to 21.5 motors. ( this would help new comers to class as well as put more experience drives to a super stock or expert class like let's say 10.5.... I mean you look at the 17.5 classes and see the same semi pro and pro guys at the top all the time anyway...
Out of the box thinking here. 21.5 lock timing stock spec tire
Super stock 9.5 or 10.5 blinky spec tire
Mod. Open speedo motor tire etc
Last edited by Phil Trotta; 08-15-2016 at 01:57 AM.
08-15-2016, 04:50 AM
#49
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
The best guys are always going to be laps ahead of the mere mortals. It's inevitable. That's ok so long as the class entry is large enough so that guys can get sorted out according to their speed (or lack thereof) and skill level (or lack of) during the qualifiers, the resorts, and even seeding the qualifiers. The real problem comes when there always seem to be so few entries in modified that the rocket ships are always running at the same time as the not nearly so fast or in control cars. Having a huge difference between the few ultra fast cars vs the not nearly so fast ones usually turns out to be not much fun for anybody. Making mod more manageable for upper level club racers will hopefully make it so that more guys can and will step up to run mod. That should be the focus.
08-15-2016, 05:11 AM
#50
Not crazy about Blinky but it's more tolerable than spec motor.
Mah cap and longer races sounds perfect. it would force guys to detune the motor and esc, and gear down to make time. It would give the racers more track time which is never bad.
The biggest reason I run the class is I can have fun and not worry that I lost because I can't get the best of this or that, when I come off the track in mod 5 laps down, I can proudly say I did my best and just got out drove. And with the new black carpet that should even be less of an issue since sliding over to let Hebert or Cyrul b y won't mean 3 shitty laps getting the tires back.
Dropping to 6.5 is basically just making a new class so some one who can't doesn't want to run a 4.5 can have some place to play, that's how we ended up with a dozen classes at the big races with small fields in each. Be curious, would mod grow if we only had Stock and Mod.
08-15-2016, 05:18 AM
#51
Somewhat independent of the discussion about changing mod 1/12 but more out of my own curiosity, what metric can be used to determine if somebody is capable of running mod 1/12? At what point is someone deemed capable?
I ask because I have raced mod 1/12 at quite a few races, but am still very much a newcomer to the class (and rc on the whole) compared to the rest of the field. At 2014 Worlds I was 4 laps off of Marc R and Alex, but in the same main as Cyrul and Rick H. At Reedy Invite earlier this year my fastest run was 8 seconds off of Spashett's fastest. At MHIC earlier this year I was about two laps off of Keven in quals and then three off in the main after my own first lap screw up. Am I capable of running the class? I think I am, but by your definition above I pretty clearly am not one of the 5-10 guys.
Just a thought, as I think having an understanding of what makes someone 'capable' or 'accepted' when racing a class could help determine how said class needs to evolve.
(Of course this begs the next logical (but tangential) question - to say that if I am incapable of running the class, why is there no similar discussion for people who are 3-4 laps off in other classes?)
Also, I realize this could potentially contradict my earlier question, but I would like to request that we avoid specifically calling out folks in this thread. Is the pool of talent in mod in the US pretty shallow? Yes. Does that mean we need to specifically call out people who are off-pace? Nope.
I ask because I have raced mod 1/12 at quite a few races, but am still very much a newcomer to the class (and rc on the whole) compared to the rest of the field. At 2014 Worlds I was 4 laps off of Marc R and Alex, but in the same main as Cyrul and Rick H. At Reedy Invite earlier this year my fastest run was 8 seconds off of Spashett's fastest. At MHIC earlier this year I was about two laps off of Keven in quals and then three off in the main after my own first lap screw up. Am I capable of running the class? I think I am, but by your definition above I pretty clearly am not one of the 5-10 guys.
Just a thought, as I think having an understanding of what makes someone 'capable' or 'accepted' when racing a class could help determine how said class needs to evolve.
(Of course this begs the next logical (but tangential) question - to say that if I am incapable of running the class, why is there no similar discussion for people who are 3-4 laps off in other classes?)
Also, I realize this could potentially contradict my earlier question, but I would like to request that we avoid specifically calling out folks in this thread. Is the pool of talent in mod in the US pretty shallow? Yes. Does that mean we need to specifically call out people who are off-pace? Nope.
08-15-2016, 07:02 AM
#52
Tech Regular
iTrader: (28)
You know why its fun to sit and watch Pro Mod oval at the Snowbirds? Because its fricken hilarious to watch some of the wrecks that happen when a car spins out and three cars explode with parts and crap flying everywhere.
Then you sit and think for a minute, and talk to these guys whose cars where just destroyed, that they are literally going to start from scratch with a new car. There is no point in even trying to rebuild that one.
Cue our dumbasses, that now have to have an aluminum chassis on our 12th scale cars to be competitive on the new carpet. Ask yourself the question on whether you want to start from scratch after you yardsale a car because you got it wrong by a quarter of a millimeter at the end of the straightaway because your neck doesn't move as fast as the car going down the straight.
And cue oval guys laughing at us....
Then you sit and think for a minute, and talk to these guys whose cars where just destroyed, that they are literally going to start from scratch with a new car. There is no point in even trying to rebuild that one.
Cue our dumbasses, that now have to have an aluminum chassis on our 12th scale cars to be competitive on the new carpet. Ask yourself the question on whether you want to start from scratch after you yardsale a car because you got it wrong by a quarter of a millimeter at the end of the straightaway because your neck doesn't move as fast as the car going down the straight.
And cue oval guys laughing at us....
08-15-2016, 07:39 AM
#53
On the 6.5..:
Some guys ran it at FTC. These guys being Wiita and Van Ert, two of the fastest spec racers around.
At first the cars looked like turds. I saw them and thought, "that's not fast enough". However as the weekend progressed, by the 3rd A Main, Wiita had his car smoking fast, and in my opinion it still needed a bit more endbell timing or maybe a tooth or two. The speed discrepancy down the straight was not that big either. The car was every bit, if not faster in the infield with just a slight difference in acceleration rate down the straight. Talking to John, he said he was only about a tenth off pace.
I think the class shows promise. It already got 2 guys that run spec to try it out and I think also enjoy it, but I don't want to put words in their mouth.
I don't think this will be a motor war, the cars are fast enough that they still have to be driven with skill, extra power won't do anything but actually hurt the lesser drivers. With the high level drivers, equipment may be more critical, but it won't be as big of a deal as you guys are making it out to be.
Some guys ran it at FTC. These guys being Wiita and Van Ert, two of the fastest spec racers around.
At first the cars looked like turds. I saw them and thought, "that's not fast enough". However as the weekend progressed, by the 3rd A Main, Wiita had his car smoking fast, and in my opinion it still needed a bit more endbell timing or maybe a tooth or two. The speed discrepancy down the straight was not that big either. The car was every bit, if not faster in the infield with just a slight difference in acceleration rate down the straight. Talking to John, he said he was only about a tenth off pace.
I think the class shows promise. It already got 2 guys that run spec to try it out and I think also enjoy it, but I don't want to put words in their mouth.
I don't think this will be a motor war, the cars are fast enough that they still have to be driven with skill, extra power won't do anything but actually hurt the lesser drivers. With the high level drivers, equipment may be more critical, but it won't be as big of a deal as you guys are making it out to be.
08-15-2016, 08:46 AM
#54
Take away some mechanical grip and some areo grip. Not a ton but enough to make the driver be able to drive the car. Then change race format... Change qualifying to your top 3,5,7 (or whatever) best laps to qualify. That way your not or don't have to be out there a whole run trying to do 50+ laps on the edge disaster and wad up the car after 1 mistake. And just keep the races the same (reedy type format), race against the other racers rather then the clock like we seem to be doing more then actually racing other cars.
Last edited by RobS; 08-15-2016 at 09:00 AM.
08-15-2016, 09:16 AM
#55
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
An interesting thing happened a year ago when we switched from 21.5 to 25.5 in F1. The racing got much better and the gap from TQ to the 10th car in the "A" got much closer. This was indoors where most of us north of the Ohio river race. Another side note, the 6 minute lap total went up in most cases. The class that was almost dead has now grown some. Just a little food for thought.
08-15-2016, 10:07 AM
#56
I'm from the way back days when stock was 27t brushed with 4-cell NiCd and mod was 4-cell NiCd and whatever motor/tires/gearing you needed. Back then it didn't make sense to limit anything else since the technology at the time wasn't available to do much else. Winning or losing was not the fault of the battery or motor of the week. Sure there were motors with just that little extra kick to them and batteries that were expensive as hell but still barely any better than the average 4-cell. In the end it still came down to the driver and how he/she managed their equipment and race strategy. Driving clean was more important then going fast.
Now fast forward to today's level of technology and we should be in a MUCH better situation and not worse as it seems to be. Motor and battery technology has come so far that it is no longer a factor to impose natural limits. I agree the rules should be altered for today's technology but still open enough to keep mod a mod class and not just a faster spec class. Couple things that might help:
1. Eliminate boost and esc timing. Leave the escs in blinky. Think of it as a forced restrictor plate in real racing.
2. Change the weight requirement of the car. Make it so you again have to manage the power to weight ratio accordingly and keep enough battery on board to finish the race without destroying your car
3. Forget option 1 and option 2, do whatever you want but you are limited to 20gauge wire to the battery and motor to esc.
4. weight limit on the battery. pain to tech and a moving target with each new battery production
Probably not the solution but aimed at keeping mod more of an open platform that it used to be. These are just my 2cents on the subject.
Now fast forward to today's level of technology and we should be in a MUCH better situation and not worse as it seems to be. Motor and battery technology has come so far that it is no longer a factor to impose natural limits. I agree the rules should be altered for today's technology but still open enough to keep mod a mod class and not just a faster spec class. Couple things that might help:
1. Eliminate boost and esc timing. Leave the escs in blinky. Think of it as a forced restrictor plate in real racing.
2. Change the weight requirement of the car. Make it so you again have to manage the power to weight ratio accordingly and keep enough battery on board to finish the race without destroying your car
3. Forget option 1 and option 2, do whatever you want but you are limited to 20gauge wire to the battery and motor to esc.
4. weight limit on the battery. pain to tech and a moving target with each new battery production
Probably not the solution but aimed at keeping mod more of an open platform that it used to be. These are just my 2cents on the subject.
08-15-2016, 10:50 AM
#57
Unfortunately, like so many on these forums we're all talking from 20+ years of RC experience. Let's face it, the lack of new blood is sad to see. I'm even finding it hard to get my boys to come race. Kids are not into hanging around all day to race for 15-25 minutes. They'd rather spend an hour bashing in a yard than spend all day at track. We're just a different breed.
I also started racing 1/12th scales back in the 80's with SC battery packs. I was a harsh critic of brushless technology and 1s battery packs when introduced as I felt the technology was going to make matters worse. I was criticized frequently by those who said the technology will make it easier for the average racer. Well, here we are again have the same conversation and the "local" on-road racing scene sucks! The only place the technology has improved "local" racing is in off-road. Less motor maintanence and high capacity batteries provides for a more enjoyable experience.
I agree with Chicky, on-road cars are too fast! No-one wants to hear it but at the 'local" level, on-road cars are just too fast to be enjoyable on a indoor circuit. For on-road, my boys love the Tamiya TCS novice classes because they are controllable and it's fun for them. The slower speeds offer a more enjoyable experience and if everyone is relatively the same speed and can drive under control, the "racing" will become more competitive.
I see 1/12th going the way of 1/8th on-road..."down hill fast"!!!
What made 1/12th scale great back in the 80's was the need to have a racing strategy. You had to gear the car to make 8 minutes, this had the effect of slowing cars down to set a pace for the entire race. Leaders would throttle back, not to let the field catch them but to conserve battery power to finish the race and make the guys behind them waste power.
MY SUGGESTION: Limit the mah in 1/12th scale mod racing to 4500mah, perhaps the enjoyment of a race strategy would come back into play and make that final minute of racing more exciting. If I had any influence on guidelines, I would limit battery capacity for all levels of racing.
I also started racing 1/12th scales back in the 80's with SC battery packs. I was a harsh critic of brushless technology and 1s battery packs when introduced as I felt the technology was going to make matters worse. I was criticized frequently by those who said the technology will make it easier for the average racer. Well, here we are again have the same conversation and the "local" on-road racing scene sucks! The only place the technology has improved "local" racing is in off-road. Less motor maintanence and high capacity batteries provides for a more enjoyable experience.
I agree with Chicky, on-road cars are too fast! No-one wants to hear it but at the 'local" level, on-road cars are just too fast to be enjoyable on a indoor circuit. For on-road, my boys love the Tamiya TCS novice classes because they are controllable and it's fun for them. The slower speeds offer a more enjoyable experience and if everyone is relatively the same speed and can drive under control, the "racing" will become more competitive.
I see 1/12th going the way of 1/8th on-road..."down hill fast"!!!
What made 1/12th scale great back in the 80's was the need to have a racing strategy. You had to gear the car to make 8 minutes, this had the effect of slowing cars down to set a pace for the entire race. Leaders would throttle back, not to let the field catch them but to conserve battery power to finish the race and make the guys behind them waste power.
MY SUGGESTION: Limit the mah in 1/12th scale mod racing to 4500mah, perhaps the enjoyment of a race strategy would come back into play and make that final minute of racing more exciting. If I had any influence on guidelines, I would limit battery capacity for all levels of racing.
08-15-2016, 10:57 AM
#58
Unfortunately, like so many on these forums we're all talking from 20+ years of RC experience. Let's face it, the lack of new blood is sad to see. I'm even finding it hard to get my boys to come race. Kids are not into hanging around all day to race for 15-25 minutes. They'd rather spend an hour bashing in a yard than spend all day at track. We're just a different breed.
I also started racing 1/12th scales back in the 80's with SC battery packs. I was a harsh critic of brushless technology and 1s battery packs when introduced as I felt the technology was going to make matters worse. I was criticized frequently by those who said the technology will make it easier for the average racer. Well, here we are again have the same conversation and the "local" on-road racing scene sucks! The only place the technology has improved "local" racing is in off-road. Less motor maintanence and high capacity batteries provides for a more enjoyable experience.
I agree with Chicky, on-road cars are too fast! No-one wants to hear it but at the 'local" level, on-road cars are just too fast to be enjoyable on a indoor circuit. For on-road, my boys love the Tamiya TCS novice classes because they are controllable and it's fun for them. The slower speeds offer a more enjoyable experience and if everyone is relatively the same speed and can drive under control, the "racing" will become more competitive.
I see 1/12th going the way of 1/8th on-road..."down hill fast"!!!
What made 1/12th scale great back in the 80's was the need to have a racing strategy. You had to gear the car to make 8 minutes, this had the effect of slowing cars down to set a pace for the entire race. Leaders would throttle back, not to let the field catch them but to conserve battery power to finish the race and make the guys behind them waste power.
MY SUGGESTION: Limit the mah in 1/12th scale mod racing to 4500mah, perhaps the enjoyment of a race strategy would come back into play and make that final minute of racing more exciting. If I had any influence on guidelines, I would limit battery capacity for all levels of racing.
I also started racing 1/12th scales back in the 80's with SC battery packs. I was a harsh critic of brushless technology and 1s battery packs when introduced as I felt the technology was going to make matters worse. I was criticized frequently by those who said the technology will make it easier for the average racer. Well, here we are again have the same conversation and the "local" on-road racing scene sucks! The only place the technology has improved "local" racing is in off-road. Less motor maintanence and high capacity batteries provides for a more enjoyable experience.
I agree with Chicky, on-road cars are too fast! No-one wants to hear it but at the 'local" level, on-road cars are just too fast to be enjoyable on a indoor circuit. For on-road, my boys love the Tamiya TCS novice classes because they are controllable and it's fun for them. The slower speeds offer a more enjoyable experience and if everyone is relatively the same speed and can drive under control, the "racing" will become more competitive.
I see 1/12th going the way of 1/8th on-road..."down hill fast"!!!
What made 1/12th scale great back in the 80's was the need to have a racing strategy. You had to gear the car to make 8 minutes, this had the effect of slowing cars down to set a pace for the entire race. Leaders would throttle back, not to let the field catch them but to conserve battery power to finish the race and make the guys behind them waste power.
MY SUGGESTION: Limit the mah in 1/12th scale mod racing to 4500mah, perhaps the enjoyment of a race strategy would come back into play and make that final minute of racing more exciting. If I had any influence on guidelines, I would limit battery capacity for all levels of racing.
Best post in this thread!!
08-15-2016, 10:59 AM
#59
Just so you know in Britain we've changed Mod to be 6.5 Blinky. An experienced racer friend of mine jsut posted this.
"6.5MOD Awesome!
LMP race mates, had a chance to run 6.5 at Newbury yesterday (great meeting btw, thanks Newbury) and it was great.
Unlike my attempt at open mod where it was just too brutal 6.5 Blinky was fast, really fast but controllable. In with quick guys and could stay out of the way and enjoy the racing rather than parking the car as the fast bits whizz past trying not to ruin their run.
I really urge you all to have a go at 6.5MOD great fun��"
"6.5MOD Awesome!
LMP race mates, had a chance to run 6.5 at Newbury yesterday (great meeting btw, thanks Newbury) and it was great.
Unlike my attempt at open mod where it was just too brutal 6.5 Blinky was fast, really fast but controllable. In with quick guys and could stay out of the way and enjoy the racing rather than parking the car as the fast bits whizz past trying not to ruin their run.
I really urge you all to have a go at 6.5MOD great fun��"
08-15-2016, 12:38 PM
#60
Tech Fanatic
I would vote to keep it open. If people want to run a 6.5 or anything else they feel like they have the best shot with....so be it.
I did it at Cleveland and had fun....and fun is why everyone starts this hobby. If more people were less intimidated by driving with someone with a 3.0 or 2.5 ...more would do it. The fields will sort themselves out by laptimes and like skilled drivers will be with their driving peers.
I did it at Cleveland and had fun....and fun is why everyone starts this hobby. If more people were less intimidated by driving with someone with a 3.0 or 2.5 ...more would do it. The fields will sort themselves out by laptimes and like skilled drivers will be with their driving peers.