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Old 08-13-2016, 05:19 PM   #31
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Personally I think limiting voltage is the key to bringing speed under control. Controlling motor winds, ESC technology etc etc is no where near as effective as dropping voltage.

The easiest way to do this is for the industry to move to LiFe batteries. This will drop the voltage by 10%+ and the batteries are safer. Stick with 1S for 1/12th and 2S for TC.

Would mean issues with shipping reduce, fire and the like due to incorrect handling reduce and in time - so will cost.

Not that I'm for it, but as for those suggesting controlling winds or boost etc is making it "stock" or too controlled - well, motor size (540) battery voltage (8.4V) and weight are already "control" - I agree we should have controls, but yes, they need to be smart and they need to not drive people to easily spend money elsewhere to try to win.

It's kind of funny that the cheapest classes to run in our hobby are actually the fastest ones.
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Old 08-14-2016, 12:33 AM   #32
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What I still don't get is: Why we have to change the mod class? There is no reason to limit the motor or something else. Because you can run a 6.5 blinky already and nobody is twisting your arms until you run a 4.0 boosted setup. open mod means that you can choose to run a 10.5 boosted or a 6.5 blinky or the crazy 4.0 boosted setup and have fun with it.
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Old 08-14-2016, 04:10 AM   #33
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I will caveat this with the fact that I currently don't run mod, I'm going to start dabbling in TC tho. My perspective is from a point of view of helping to operate a track and it's events.

Leaving 12th Open Mod the way it is provides a club race with maybe one or two guys randomly looking to practice every few months. Mid-level events net 6-7 guys. National level events bring in maybe 12. World events, maybe in the 20's? (this is events held in the US). Even the Reedy Race had to be moved to Europe to garner a turn-out because the class is still somewhat alive but (IMO) only because they have consistently larger tracks to support it. Splitting the heats/main by laps will only fracture a 7-12 car class even further. Then the guys who run current mod, who probably shouldn't, will quit because they no longer make the same main as the Pro's.

I understand the point of running a slower motor in Open, problem is, people don't select a wind by their ability. They slap in the fastest thing they can get and crank the boost up because that is what the fast guys do, it's just the competitive nature. You end up with 2-4 competitive racers at a national event and then everyone else. Trying to watch a qual is painful, I end up feeling pity when the claim to fame is finishing 8 min without breaking your car. It also doesn't work because people know that if they run a slower motor than the fast guys they will NEVER have a chance of being close in times to the Pro's, people won't join a class if they know they can never match them, potentially at least.

At our track, we have had a decent amount of new faces enter or reenter the hobby in the past year. They look at TC or 12th 17.5 ("stock" lol) like the guys driving them are on crack and they start off in our 12th 21.5 spec class, or GTR, or VTA. Some are still at it trying to improve, some gave up and my guess is it is because they felt like they can never move up to a class that is considered Stock. The cars are just too damn fast from top to bottom. I made this point in the monster thread last year: technology is starting to outpace human ability. When the "pro's" start self-handicapping the battery voltage to make it easier to drive, there's a problem with the current potential power available.

I cannot claim that I know how to solve this, but I am almost certain that there isn't a magic bullet out there for a fix to the hobby. It would take multiple, coordinated changes at once. Speed available and overall grip would have to be reduced at the same time because if you just reduced the speed 'insert class here' will be plain out boring since you can then just throttle-peg it. We tried 21.5 TC and it was boring as hell with the current selection of tires.

Changing the motor in F1 from 21.5 to 25.5 resulted in growth of the class (regionally/locally at least). It marginally reduced the potential lap time by maybe 2 tenths but exponentially made the cars easier to drive consistently since they are RWD rubber tires (ie. less grip), by reducing exit corner power, netting an overall increase in avg speeds. The key to this motor move is it still left an aspect of throttle control being a factor in producing the fastest time, just not as pronounced as 21.5

I'd pick the USGT class, since they reduced the weight, as the new "stock TC class", slower motor and less grippy tires is where at least stock needs to be. If we could find a less grippy foam "spec" tire for the 12th 21.5 class I think it could really take off. You'd then have to eliminate at least one of the three other offered classes, be it 17.5 or 13.5.
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Old 08-14-2016, 04:28 AM   #34
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There is no form of real racing that allows unlimited power like open mod in RC. It is always controlled by some means in the interests of competition and safety. Mod 12th in its current form is clearly unsustainable.. Mod tc is not far behind
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Old 08-14-2016, 06:18 AM   #35
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I've always loved mod 1/12th. During the nicad and brushed motor era, I ran it myself for years and did reasonably well even at some of the bigger races. I was never a threat to win the Nats or the Indoor Champs, but I did win my fair share of local events and I was good enough to not be a moving chicane while on track with guys like Blackstock, Dosek, and others at that level of talent. Then along came brushless, then boost, and then lipos. Somehow there was never enough time or money available for me to learn how to handle and exploit all of this new "black box" electronic technology. So the gap between my own capabilities and those of the true top tier racers grew substantially wider. Eventually it became obvious to me that mod 1/12th was no longer a viable choice for me. Sad, but true. I still love to watch mod races on the few chances that I get to travel these days and when there are a few guys in the house who can really make the mod cars sing. Problem is that nowadays, even at a race like the Halloween classic which draws about as much talent as any carpet race in the US, the last few times I was there, what I saw was that there were really only just 2 or 3 (maybe 4) guys who had any shot at running anywhere near the lead pace and the other cars were largely just in the way. Back in the day, the qualifiers would sort out the cream from the milk and eventually there would be a heat or maybe even two full of the cream of the crop. I'd often find myself in the middle of or maybe even towards the front of the B, which was fine by me and oh so satisfying. But that sorting process simply doesn't happen when only maybe a dozen guys max (and usually less) run the class. What ends up happening is that, the very few missile fast cars, out of necessity and purely because of the low car count, always are running among several cars that are 5 or more laps off the pace. It has become almost painful to watch. That's why I strongly believe that something needs to be done to rein in the speeds......for two reasons.......1) so that mod is more attainable for a serious and experienced (but not superhuman) racer such as myself, and 2) so that the delta between the superhumans and the upper level club racers is not so unsustainably wide. Maybe then more than 8 or 10 guys will run mod and hopefully the mod racing will be sustainable.
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Old 08-14-2016, 07:11 AM   #36
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I just want to throw this out there.

All those years ago when 12th scale was formed, the race time of 8 minutes was chosen because there was no chance in hell you would make run time if you ran flat out. Sure faster motors were available but you didn't run them because you needed run time. 12th mod wasn't about being the fastest, it was about being the smoothest. And I remember running 12th mod because it was cheaper than running stock. Back then you couldn't rebuild stock motors, so to keep up you needed the latest motor available.

The club we ran at had 3 classes, stock (which was supposed to be for the beginners), mod (for the rest of us), and Expert, for those with the higher skill levels. And you had to qualify for expert.

If there's one thing we should have learned over the past few decades is you cannot control speed by regulating equipment. As soon as you make rules for a class, someone figures out how to go faster within those rules.

What has to change is the format of racing. The race lengths should be where you have to think about what you're doing, not just have the fastest stuff. We should seriously consider shortening qualifying heats and drastically lengthening the mains. Put the emphasis on race strategy, not on flat out speed.

But one thing I have learned over the years is racers hate change. Mike's idea of starting this thread is a good one, but I fear it will change nothing. I hope I'm wrong.

PS blinky sucks!
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Old 08-14-2016, 08:09 AM   #37
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I think the limiting factor on a good Mod class is the fact that most racers have no access to a track that will allow them to practice mod. This means that those wanting to run mod show up at the big race with no setup and no practice. In addition to everything stated above, you will need to somehow correct this situation if you want more depth (and quality) in the mod classes. Short of this, there should be an invitational class if you want to keep a clean track for the top tier drivers. Allow drivers to bump to invitational if they show enough speed in mod at the event, so you can keep the races clean but not exclude the people that are capable of racing it.
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Old 08-14-2016, 08:29 AM   #38
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This might sound goofy but what if you went to a very short qualifier like 2 or 3 minutes for hot lap and had muliple 12 or 15 minute mains? The total track time would be close but it would force a much different setup to finish
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Old 08-14-2016, 09:00 AM   #39
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I haven't been involved with 1/12th scale since the early 80's but have always tried to keep up with what is going on. Our group( in Fl) never ran anything but modified since "no rules" except for the ROAR rules that no motor could cost more than $30 and the spec battery was 1200MAH and couldn't cost more than $24 was easy to police. We literally carried the cars to the starting line and wouldn't think of touching the trigger till the flag lifted. You had to gear the car to make time. Speed was secondary but the cars were still plenty fast.

Today technology has completely changed the hobby into something nearly unrecognizable from those early days but one thing remains. 95% of the competitors are complaining about the other 5% that have the God like skills needed to control the technology. The most obvious solution and one not mentioned in this thread is to use a gear rule. Spec a very low say 7.00 to 8.00 to 1 to slow the speeds overall. Many gains to be made here for the mortals. You will no longer obtain that magic "vanishing point" that turns the car to dust on impact or forces the over weight and slow footed marshal from going into cardiac arrest while pursuing the errant object into the tall grass or the deep recesses under the benches scattered around the course. However you will need to brush up on or learn how to actually make the chassis work with the new acceleration rates that the lower gear creates not to mention deal with additional tire wear and who knows what else. One thing as certain as death and taxes though, The 5% will still be winning and being persecuted for their talent.
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:38 AM   #40
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Why don't more people run mod 12th scale you ask? Well some of the answers are very simple and I can give you a few examples of why in other forms of R/C modified racing is the most popular class.

Lets take 2wd off road modified. In many cases and even at this years off road nats going on this week, modified is the class with the most entries. I have been to many races where 2wd modified is the biggest class ranging from 80-120 entries while stock only has 40-60 entries at the same race. The stock class is looked as the stepping stone into the modified class much like it was years ago in on road. New guys and less skilled racers race the stock class, when they feel they are good enough they move up to mod they do.

Are the normal guys in this form or racing scared to race the pros? Nope, if they were wouldn't there be more stock entries and less mod entries? So why are more people racing modified than stock in this form of r/c? Mainly the reason is the speed of the car is not so great that normal or above average drivers can get the car around competently with out destroying the car, getting in the pros way or looking like they just simply are having a hard time. The track is bigger, the speeds are lower and it is easier for different levels of drivers to drive on the track at the same time. In mod 12th scale you can't run anything but mod on the track because the speed is so much greater than all the other classes it makes for a huge mess and broken cars. The track is too small, the speed is too much and a normal driver just can't do it. Just because mod is supposed to be the elite racing class does not mean that only 10 people in the world should be able to do it competently. That's not appealing for anyone to start to get into something new and try and grow the hobby.

On road racing will continue to die unless the speeds and traction are reduced to a level where normal guys can do it. Trust me, it wont get any better until this is done. I've seen it before in slot cars and it is happening in on road. At the slot nationals a class use to have have 100+ guys and now there are only 20 if you are lucky. The cars got faster, lighter, the turns on the track got more banked and the normal human couldn't do it anymore, they got frustrated and quit.

I personally don't have the answer on how to do this but it needs to change or it will continue to die a slow death.
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:45 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
This might sound goofy but what if you went to a very short qualifier like 2 or 3 minutes for hot lap and had muliple 12 or 15 minute mains? The total track time would be close but it would force a much different setup to finish
We skip quals locally when there's enough drivers to just fill a main.

Reading this thread seems the speed is the subject most bring up. Then just re-name Super Stock to Mod and maintain the 13.5 motor cap. Maybe open up the possibility to run boost.

Be bold!
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:56 AM   #42
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Nobody is blaming the top 5% for anything. Don't be rediculous.
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Old 08-14-2016, 01:02 PM   #43
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Having just watched my first 6.5 blinky mod race today, I can honestly say it created a decent spectacle. Still really fast and exciting with decent close racing.
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Old 08-14-2016, 01:38 PM   #44
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over the years there has been resistance to change in classes of RC car, from what i have read the current system 1/12 just followed what the 1/10 pan car oval drivers were doing while ROAR was deciding what to do with Lipo.

1/12 esc and batteries, they are not usable in TC or 1/10 offroad. many don't even want to waste money on hobbyking batteries-ESC, which are cheap

some 1/12 racers on local level are trying new things to get other class racers into 1/12th scale. one group is allowing the 2S super slim shorty packs and limiting the motor to 25.5. this enables racers to use stuff from the F-1, TC, Off road programs. there are some comments scattered about this in various threads here
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Old 08-14-2016, 01:49 PM   #45
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accidently double posted
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