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Old 05-02-2017, 01:36 PM   #241
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Mafodda,

Sorry as mentioned in the previous post i changed my car back to normal this weekend. Want to do a little testing in it's current state before raising again. Here's a drawing marked up from the manual.

Are you really changing the roll center with this mod or just changing the roll axis?

I did this mod but also added 1mm under the pivot ball (making the chassis and rear pod plate flat) then also added 1mm under the rear balls on the lower pod plate.
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:16 PM   #242
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just got a roche f1 kit.....

any recommendations on whether to use 48 or 64 pitch gears..
'
planning on racing asphalt outdoors.....
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:58 PM   #243
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Do I even want to know what Dom did??
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Old 05-02-2017, 08:42 PM   #244
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Are you really changing the roll center with this mod or just changing the roll axis?

I did this mod but also added 1mm under the pivot ball (making the chassis and rear pod plate flat) then also added 1mm under the rear balls on the lower pod plate.
Hi Ralph,

As many have mentioned to me over the past few weeks. This evidently is not how the roll center of a pan car is raised. Supposedly its done only by raising the pivot points. I still don't understand the geometry of a pan car i guess.

However, with that said and dumb luck, i can tell you from lots of testing. This mod does make the car rotate better around a corner. F1's with Shimizu tires are very stuck in the rear on CRC black carpet in high grip. This helps free up the car.

I experimented with stock position, 1 mm, and 1.5 mm. 1.5 was way to much, very hard to drive. I'm currently running .75 mm and feel it's optimal.

I don't recommend this for low grip conditions. The car will spin-out mid corner.

Sometimes the best new discoveries are made by accident. If no one has tried this on a 12th scale it may be worth some experimentation. There were some things tried at MHIC this year that I've never seen before and they worked.
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Last edited by bkspeedo; 05-02-2017 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:14 PM   #245
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I would say don't raise the center pivot ball ever. Chassis designers put considerable effort into keeping it as low as possible. It is not a tuning option. It's late I'm grumpy. Stop the madness.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:48 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by bkspeedo View Post
Hi Ralph,

As many have mentioned to me over the past few weeks. This evidently is not how the roll center of a pan car is raised. Supposedly its done only by raising the pivot points. I still don't understand the geometry of a pan car i guess.

However, with that said and dumb luck, i can tell you from lots of testing. This mod does make the car rotate better around a corner. F1's with Shimizu tires are very stuck in the rear on CRC black carpet in high grip. This helps free up the car.

I experimented with stock position, 1 mm, and 1.5 mm. 1.5 was way to much, very hard to drive. I'm currently running .75 mm and feel it's optimal.

I don't recommend this for low grip conditions. The car will spin-out mid corner.

Sometimes the best new discoveries are made by accident. If no one has tried this on a 12th scale it may be worth some experimentation. There were some things tried at MHIC this year that I've never seen before and they worked.
Interesting experiment, but I think the same effect could be accomplished by changing the side spring with harder ones. This would have exactly the same effect - raising the rear roll stiffness. Raising stiffness through the side springs is way more easier and flexible.

It is different story if you want to introduce some self steering of the rear wheels. On your car this could be done by changing the shims at the front of the links. Removing the shims should introduce roll oversteer.
DavidNERODease is right - you dont want to raise your rear roll center.
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:28 AM   #247
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Do any of you use ball studs besides the Roche supplied ones? I need to replace a few on my car, and I was hoping I could get some from my LHS instead of ordering them. Do any companies ball studs match up with the diameter of the Roche items?
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:55 AM   #248
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Do any of you use ball studs besides the Roche supplied ones? I need to replace a few on my car, and I was hoping I could get some from my LHS instead of ordering them. Do any companies ball studs match up with the diameter of the Roche items?
AE 12r5 hardware works too
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:34 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by DavidNERODease View Post
I would say don't raise the center pivot ball ever. Chassis designers put considerable effort into keeping it as low as possible. It is not a tuning option. It's late I'm grumpy. Stop the madness.
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Interesting experiment, but I think the same effect could be accomplished by changing the side spring with harder ones. This would have exactly the same effect - raising the rear roll stiffness. Raising stiffness through the side springs is way more easier and flexible.

It is different story if you want to introduce some self steering of the rear wheels. On your car this could be done by changing the shims at the front of the links. Removing the shims should introduce roll oversteer.
DavidNERODease is right - you dont want to raise your rear roll center.
Going stiffer on the side springs does not produce the same effect. I've done both. F1's are different than a 12th scale because of the tires. Not all the same wisdom can be used. This is why Gear Diffs have become so popular with F1.

FYI, I'm already running Pink sides, stiffest Roche offers. I tried more pre-load, was not a fan. Makes that car to twitchy and more prone to traction rolling.

To each his own on what they like or want to try. I'm just passing along what I've found that works on CRC Black carpet. Your free to give it a try and provide your feedback.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:52 AM   #250
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just got a roche f1 kit.....

any recommendations on whether to use 48 or 64 pitch gears..
'
planning on racing asphalt outdoors.....
You have PMs disabled and I can't send you any information.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:19 AM   #251
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I dont have a roche car but i will back up Brent. These are not foam tire cars. You have to think about changes you would not make on a foam tire car.

I have made similar changes on Tamiya, Speed Passion, Crc, and it works to free up the car.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:34 PM   #252
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I just ran the car at a local club track and noticed all the F1 had metal rear axles? coming from WGTR that had 4 screws and carbon axle and this is a nut and metal axle??? Why metal?
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:38 AM   #253
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I just ran the car at a local club track and noticed all the F1 had metal rear axles? coming from WGTR that had 4 screws and carbon axle and this is a nut and metal axle??? Why metal?
there's a carbon axe as option : Roche - Rapide F1 Differential Carbon Rear Axle Set (420026)
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:34 AM   #254
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I just ran the car at a local club track and noticed all the F1 had metal rear axles? coming from WGTR that had 4 screws and carbon axle and this is a nut and metal axle??? Why metal?
The metal axle is less fragile. Additionally, it adds a bit more weight to the rear for more traction.
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:59 AM   #255
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Stiffer side springs on a foam car in hi grip generally encourages traction roll, at least that's what I do to prevent - soften. I had to go soft on side springs to prevent traction roll on my F1s as well. I don't understand how stiffer is better regardless of tire, and of course referring to crc high grip carpet that is.
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