Slapmaster Tools MS2.3
11-27-2005, 07:24 PM
#61
Well...
Finally got the car together and to the track friday night. After all the great things I've been hearing about this car I was excited to try it out. Unfortunately I fought a NASTY glitch problem all night and was unable to turn more than 5 or 6 laps on the track. Back to the drawing board.....
Put a new rx in the car today and headed for the track. WooHoo!! What an awesome car. I only had enough time to run one pack but it was great. The car was very solid/stable feeling - by far he best 12th I have driven (not that that means much
). Can't wait to get more track time with it.
Allen,
I hear yours is working better too!! Glad to hear it. Sam had a great time with Peyton. We'll have to do it again in a couple of weeks
.
Finally got the car together and to the track friday night. After all the great things I've been hearing about this car I was excited to try it out. Unfortunately I fought a NASTY glitch problem all night and was unable to turn more than 5 or 6 laps on the track. Back to the drawing board.....
Put a new rx in the car today and headed for the track. WooHoo!! What an awesome car. I only had enough time to run one pack but it was great. The car was very solid/stable feeling - by far he best 12th I have driven (not that that means much
). Can't wait to get more track time with it.Allen,
I hear yours is working better too!! Glad to hear it. Sam had a great time with Peyton. We'll have to do it again in a couple of weeks
.
11-27-2005, 07:41 PM
#62
I only got one run in myself then had to leave I adjusted my rear wheel base to 6 3/4 and the car was much better. I also changed my tires to Parma Purple/Grey.
Deric I was thinking I bring Peyton every other week I probably should have left him at home since he stayed up so late the night before but I told him Sam would be there this week. He has figured out the days of the week now so I can't trick him anymore.
Deric I was thinking I bring Peyton every other week I probably should have left him at home since he stayed up so late the night before but I told him Sam would be there this week. He has figured out the days of the week now so I can't trick him anymore.
11-29-2005, 10:47 PM
#63
Hey All,
I have been without a computer for several days now. But now I am back on line. I should be in good shape.
Thanks everyone for the support and good words about the MS2.3. I am glad that you like it. I have recently found that the steering stops are not holding up. I have already redone the mold and have new ones on the way. Anyone that needs new stops, just ask and I will take care of it.
I am having a real head scratcher of a time at Rain City trying to find a new tire set up that I really like for mod. Weylin has been using some Parma Pink (rr) and Purple (fr) and has in my opinion, the best handling MS2.3 on site. Mine with the Parma Grey (rr) and Purple (fr) was very close to Weylin's with the exception of the mid corner speed, but the Grey's wore too quickly. I have exhausted just about every Parma combination and can not find a set up that does not change in the eight minute run. I had huge success with these tires last season. But I currently struggle to find that magic set up with them now. I will move back to the Jaco wraps and some combinations there to find that magic 8 minute bullet.
I also made a change from last week to just tonight that had some very interesting results. I added two 1/8" Asc nylon axle shims under each ball stud on the steering arms to elevate them a little and removed the servo tape from uder the steering servo from my "quickie" mount job and glued it instead. All this removed some of the bumpsteer by flatening out the steering links. Why? Last week, I was testing tire combos and could make the car turn very well, but in the closing minute of the run, I would have too much oversteer. I was hoping this change would settle the car down. By the way, Weylin's car is built this way. I also lowered the upper arms to the bottom and took just a tiny amount of toe out "out" to a more zero setting. The result: I had incrediable push for a few minutes, then a medium-crummy car for a while, then the oversteer came back in the end.
This was not a result that I expected at all. Too many things were changed to point out the culprit. But for two cars that were built up near identical by the same person, sure preform at two different levels. With the new CRC Fastrack carpet, I will have to rewrite my set ups. All that I know now is that the Parma pink rears and the Jaco purple wrap fronts with side springs did and outstanding job in stock class at Rain City. Now it's time for me to figure out the mod set up.
Brian; www.slapmastertools.com
I have been without a computer for several days now. But now I am back on line. I should be in good shape.
Thanks everyone for the support and good words about the MS2.3. I am glad that you like it. I have recently found that the steering stops are not holding up. I have already redone the mold and have new ones on the way. Anyone that needs new stops, just ask and I will take care of it.
I am having a real head scratcher of a time at Rain City trying to find a new tire set up that I really like for mod. Weylin has been using some Parma Pink (rr) and Purple (fr) and has in my opinion, the best handling MS2.3 on site. Mine with the Parma Grey (rr) and Purple (fr) was very close to Weylin's with the exception of the mid corner speed, but the Grey's wore too quickly. I have exhausted just about every Parma combination and can not find a set up that does not change in the eight minute run. I had huge success with these tires last season. But I currently struggle to find that magic set up with them now. I will move back to the Jaco wraps and some combinations there to find that magic 8 minute bullet.
I also made a change from last week to just tonight that had some very interesting results. I added two 1/8" Asc nylon axle shims under each ball stud on the steering arms to elevate them a little and removed the servo tape from uder the steering servo from my "quickie" mount job and glued it instead. All this removed some of the bumpsteer by flatening out the steering links. Why? Last week, I was testing tire combos and could make the car turn very well, but in the closing minute of the run, I would have too much oversteer. I was hoping this change would settle the car down. By the way, Weylin's car is built this way. I also lowered the upper arms to the bottom and took just a tiny amount of toe out "out" to a more zero setting. The result: I had incrediable push for a few minutes, then a medium-crummy car for a while, then the oversteer came back in the end.
This was not a result that I expected at all. Too many things were changed to point out the culprit. But for two cars that were built up near identical by the same person, sure preform at two different levels. With the new CRC Fastrack carpet, I will have to rewrite my set ups. All that I know now is that the Parma pink rears and the Jaco purple wrap fronts with side springs did and outstanding job in stock class at Rain City. Now it's time for me to figure out the mod set up.
Brian; www.slapmastertools.com
12-01-2005, 10:33 PM
#66
No. That's the one thing that has me tied up. All this time, I assumed that the front tires were aquiring more grip as the run went on, causing the oversteer. The greys were quite balanced and remained that way for 8 minutes while using the same front tire that was causing troubles. So, common sense would say that it's a rear tire issue loosing grip as the run goes on. The greys would loose .020in of foam per run! That's just too much wear. Pinks might wear .003-.004. So something is causing a loose condition causing the car to oversteer in the post run with the low wear tires where as the high wear tires have the ability to maintian grip through out. Could it be some kind of "shedding" technique designed into the tire? Keep in mind, I am using TQ mod; the 8 minute sauce. No Paragon at our track.
Any tips; I am all ears.
Brian
Any tips; I am all ears.
Brian
12-02-2005, 06:34 AM
#67
i think you got the grey and pink confused. the pink is a lot softer than the grey and i find the pinks wear fast.
Last edited by dakrat; 12-02-2005 at 07:00 AM.
12-02-2005, 10:53 AM
#68
Tech Apprentice
Tire thoughts...
Brian,
My .02 worth... The carpet, compound, and amount of cars racing all vary this answer, but here is what I've found for CRC carpet with club level racing and Jack-the-Gripper. I'm sure you know all that follows, but it helps with my discussion:
Platinums, Pinks, D-Pinks, and Purples are all the same compound (Gas/High Density rubber) with different shore ratings.
Whites, Greys, and Blacks are all the same compound (Synthetic, lightweight rubber) with different shore ratings.
The "Pink" family of tire releases traction compound at a different rate than the "Grey" family of tire. So if you run Greys on the rear with purples on the front, the car will traditionally change it's chassis balance characteristics at around the 4 minute mark due to the tires releasing the dope and/or heating up at different rates.
There are chassis setups that people find that can compensate for the differences in tire families, but I've always had success running the same family of tire front and rear and then changing the chassis weight balance to compensate for handling variances. For example, I run Pink Rears and D-Pink fronts and then move the batteries fore/aft to change the weight bias to compensate for different levels of grip and "blue grooving" or to give my desired handling characteristic. My chassis always has the same balance of front-to-rear traction from minute 2-8 (first 2 minutes always have more overall grip, but the balance f/r is the same and that's the important thing).
I realize everyone has an opinion and there are many other factors, but I'm trying to address the overall big picture for 1/12th tires. Hope this advice is helpfull.
BTW - I believe we have met at races in the past. I'm Eric Davis, old 1/8th nitro and 1/12th racer that runs with Rossi in Denver...
Best Regards,
Eric
My .02 worth... The carpet, compound, and amount of cars racing all vary this answer, but here is what I've found for CRC carpet with club level racing and Jack-the-Gripper. I'm sure you know all that follows, but it helps with my discussion:
Platinums, Pinks, D-Pinks, and Purples are all the same compound (Gas/High Density rubber) with different shore ratings.
Whites, Greys, and Blacks are all the same compound (Synthetic, lightweight rubber) with different shore ratings.
The "Pink" family of tire releases traction compound at a different rate than the "Grey" family of tire. So if you run Greys on the rear with purples on the front, the car will traditionally change it's chassis balance characteristics at around the 4 minute mark due to the tires releasing the dope and/or heating up at different rates.
There are chassis setups that people find that can compensate for the differences in tire families, but I've always had success running the same family of tire front and rear and then changing the chassis weight balance to compensate for handling variances. For example, I run Pink Rears and D-Pink fronts and then move the batteries fore/aft to change the weight bias to compensate for different levels of grip and "blue grooving" or to give my desired handling characteristic. My chassis always has the same balance of front-to-rear traction from minute 2-8 (first 2 minutes always have more overall grip, but the balance f/r is the same and that's the important thing).
I realize everyone has an opinion and there are many other factors, but I'm trying to address the overall big picture for 1/12th tires. Hope this advice is helpfull.
BTW - I believe we have met at races in the past. I'm Eric Davis, old 1/8th nitro and 1/12th racer that runs with Rossi in Denver...
Best Regards,
Eric
12-02-2005, 11:20 AM
#69
Tech Apprentice
Tire Wear
Regarding tire wear, in general you will have more tire wear on any compound of tire if the chassis is out of balance and the tire is slipping. You must factor in the surface condition, i.e. ashphalt always wears tires faster than carpet, but excessive wear on carpet usually implies an out of balance chassis and/or tire combination.
In my opinion, it is very important to utilize an accurate tire durometer when trying to balance the handling of a chassis. Many people state that they use pinks, greys, etc, but each tire manufacturer can vary as much as 10 points on the shore scale for each style of tire. This factor alone will confuse your setups when comparing with other people. I use a PTC Durometer and verify all my tires ratings AFTER truing and AFTER 1 run on the track. This lets me compare apples-to-apples when it comes to tires.....
OK, I've rambled enough. Let me know if this helps,
Eric
In my opinion, it is very important to utilize an accurate tire durometer when trying to balance the handling of a chassis. Many people state that they use pinks, greys, etc, but each tire manufacturer can vary as much as 10 points on the shore scale for each style of tire. This factor alone will confuse your setups when comparing with other people. I use a PTC Durometer and verify all my tires ratings AFTER truing and AFTER 1 run on the track. This lets me compare apples-to-apples when it comes to tires.....
OK, I've rambled enough. Let me know if this helps,
Eric
12-02-2005, 12:29 PM
#70
Tech Regular
Slapmaster6000, how long do you source your tyres? May be you can source the rear tyres longer(e.g.30-40min) or front tyres shorter(10min). Another thing to try is to lower the rear roll center e.g. 0.5mm, it helps the rear grip last longer.
12-02-2005, 12:53 PM
#71
Thanks! This is all good info. This is the productive side of internet forums and I am glad to see you all chip in with good info.
I am really impressed to see that someone actually knows about the different types of manufacturing processes for creating foam tires. This has always been a therory of mine, but I just did not do the research to prove it. While a Parma rear pink has the same durometer reading as a grey, they obvisously have different traction and wear characteristics. I too, have a tire durometer that shows these two types to be about 28-29 points. The pinks push and change, the greys are balanced but wore fast (for me).
I too have found that the Jaco pink/double pink combo is pretty much a handful for the opening laps and then settles down for the remainder.
I sauce my tires for about 12-15 minutes with TQ Mod and wipe fairly dry with a fresh paper towel. I clean the tires off with motor spray after each run to remove the build up.
For what it's worth... in the old days, I recall that we all used Jaco grey/purples. The greys always wore about 2:1 to the fronts. If you were "cool", you would own two sets of grey rears for each set of fronts and rotate the rears out every few runs. That way you could keep your split from getting away from you. But we are running a lot faster now a days and on different carpet with different traction sauces.
I like Eric's advice the best: stay with the same "family" of tire and fine tune the balance. I never have liked mixing manufacturers together.
Eric; it's possible that we have crossed paths. But I often like to cloud my memory with a few local micro brews!
Brian
I am really impressed to see that someone actually knows about the different types of manufacturing processes for creating foam tires. This has always been a therory of mine, but I just did not do the research to prove it. While a Parma rear pink has the same durometer reading as a grey, they obvisously have different traction and wear characteristics. I too, have a tire durometer that shows these two types to be about 28-29 points. The pinks push and change, the greys are balanced but wore fast (for me).
I too have found that the Jaco pink/double pink combo is pretty much a handful for the opening laps and then settles down for the remainder.
I sauce my tires for about 12-15 minutes with TQ Mod and wipe fairly dry with a fresh paper towel. I clean the tires off with motor spray after each run to remove the build up.
For what it's worth... in the old days, I recall that we all used Jaco grey/purples. The greys always wore about 2:1 to the fronts. If you were "cool", you would own two sets of grey rears for each set of fronts and rotate the rears out every few runs. That way you could keep your split from getting away from you. But we are running a lot faster now a days and on different carpet with different traction sauces.
I like Eric's advice the best: stay with the same "family" of tire and fine tune the balance. I never have liked mixing manufacturers together.
Eric; it's possible that we have crossed paths. But I often like to cloud my memory with a few local micro brews!
Brian
12-03-2005, 12:40 AM
#72
I have found that at least on asphalt, if you use tires from the same family (yellow-green-blue/white-grey-black/pink-magenta-purple), the balance remains best when you apply the same coat of traction compound front and rear. I always put on a full coat front and rear. I found that if I use a less than full coat on the front to get my car balanced, this will only work for three minutes. After that, the rear will get unsettled, because both the fronts and rears will run without traction compound.
This is with a 10th scale pancar, but it should be the same for 12th scale.
This is with a 10th scale pancar, but it should be the same for 12th scale.
12-03-2005, 02:29 AM
#73
Tech Regular
On carpet it's a different story
12-08-2005, 12:02 AM
#74
Hey Gang,
It's been a while. And for good reason. I have been struggling to find the right tire/set up for nearly a week and I haven't had anything good to say. But being patient and dilligent... just might pay off this time. The good news is that "I got the car back". Weylin's car had been really good while mine has been in the toilet. Common sence says to copy Weylin's car, right? Well I built Weylin's car and thought that I duplicated mine. Not so. So the bad news might be, that the sweet spot might be pretty narrow. But when you get it right... it's pretty sweet! A product of my misery, is a new set up sheet in Excel. It is very thorough. It also comes with a roll out chart on the back with a track width scale. It's so cool, that I am including them in the latest batch of kits. I will have it in a pdf style format before long so that all drivers can just fill in the blank and email it off to your buddy or myself for scruitiny. This should greatly speed up the set up "woes" if you should have them or share the latest and greatest tips for all to enjoy.
Like I said, I went testing! I tested all kinds of tires and set ups this past week. It gave me a chance to retest things that I thought were "givens", only to discover that with the new CRC carpet vs the old stuff we had, that I need to rewrite my set up book. This will be a good thing as the CRC carpet is now the industry standard for carpet. So until I get the set up file on line, here's the latest mod set up that I have for the MS2.3:
LRP/Reedy brushless; 22/96, 1.75 rr tire, 1.26 roll out
Parma; pink rr 1.75, purple fronts; 1.64
TQ Plus; 12 minutes +/-, full rr, 3/8" fr
PF Speed 12, mounted centered
Front: 1.64 Parma Purple front tire, 20 springs, 3 cast, 2/1.5 cam, 1/4" toe (1 degree out/side), servo in mounts (this was an experiment... the jury is still out), servo saver ball studs in the center holes, upper hinge pin in the center holes, no shims under steering block ball studs (.070 for glued servo), 3.5mm ride height, 6.55in track width.
Middle: Sylva shock, 30wt, green spring, 2mm pod droop (shock length), .020 shim under front pivot ball, 20/22 side springs, 50wt Xray shock oil for dampening fluid, .075 t-bar with all 3 spacers, no shims under the front shock ball stud, bat's at 0% forward (all the way back).
Rear: 1.75 rr Parma Pink tire, 3.25mm ride height, full traction, 6.625 rr track width... this is something that I got to fool around with tonight. I had to grind away the bottom plate on the right side to get the tire to clear. I was able to remove some of the 1/4" shims to adjust the track width. Taking the car to 6.625 from 6.675 quickened up the entry steering and kept the corner speed pretty good. But it is a narrow oportunity for success. If the track had any more grip, it would traction roll. In fact, I had the bat's 50% forward in a heat with the narrow rear end and it did flip in the first few laps. Moving the bat's to the rear, took just enough of that sensation away. But you will have to tune to your needs. I worked with a lot of different settings to increase the corner speed tonight, including stiffening up the side springs. They only made the car more edgy "throttle on", but it did increase the turn in a little. Those springs were a 22/22. I went back to the 20/22 and it was fine. The big thing tonight was that I was able to get a car back to an 8 minute consistant handling car. The opening few laps were a little harry with all the extra ripp from the fresh bat's, but the car at least stayed the same through out the run.
We are loading up the Rain City squad to head east over the mountains this weekend to go visit Darren Shank and crew over in Tri Cities for the 2nd leg of the PNW Indoor Series. Mike Dumas, Chris Tosolini, Trav Schreven, Peter Robinson, Darrin himself, Me!, Weylin Rose and many others should make up for one of the best 12th scale mod races of the season. We'll have to turn the monkey loose!
Brian; www.slapmastertools.com
It's been a while. And for good reason. I have been struggling to find the right tire/set up for nearly a week and I haven't had anything good to say. But being patient and dilligent... just might pay off this time. The good news is that "I got the car back". Weylin's car had been really good while mine has been in the toilet. Common sence says to copy Weylin's car, right? Well I built Weylin's car and thought that I duplicated mine. Not so. So the bad news might be, that the sweet spot might be pretty narrow. But when you get it right... it's pretty sweet! A product of my misery, is a new set up sheet in Excel. It is very thorough. It also comes with a roll out chart on the back with a track width scale. It's so cool, that I am including them in the latest batch of kits. I will have it in a pdf style format before long so that all drivers can just fill in the blank and email it off to your buddy or myself for scruitiny. This should greatly speed up the set up "woes" if you should have them or share the latest and greatest tips for all to enjoy.
Like I said, I went testing! I tested all kinds of tires and set ups this past week. It gave me a chance to retest things that I thought were "givens", only to discover that with the new CRC carpet vs the old stuff we had, that I need to rewrite my set up book. This will be a good thing as the CRC carpet is now the industry standard for carpet. So until I get the set up file on line, here's the latest mod set up that I have for the MS2.3:
LRP/Reedy brushless; 22/96, 1.75 rr tire, 1.26 roll out
Parma; pink rr 1.75, purple fronts; 1.64
TQ Plus; 12 minutes +/-, full rr, 3/8" fr
PF Speed 12, mounted centered
Front: 1.64 Parma Purple front tire, 20 springs, 3 cast, 2/1.5 cam, 1/4" toe (1 degree out/side), servo in mounts (this was an experiment... the jury is still out), servo saver ball studs in the center holes, upper hinge pin in the center holes, no shims under steering block ball studs (.070 for glued servo), 3.5mm ride height, 6.55in track width.
Middle: Sylva shock, 30wt, green spring, 2mm pod droop (shock length), .020 shim under front pivot ball, 20/22 side springs, 50wt Xray shock oil for dampening fluid, .075 t-bar with all 3 spacers, no shims under the front shock ball stud, bat's at 0% forward (all the way back).
Rear: 1.75 rr Parma Pink tire, 3.25mm ride height, full traction, 6.625 rr track width... this is something that I got to fool around with tonight. I had to grind away the bottom plate on the right side to get the tire to clear. I was able to remove some of the 1/4" shims to adjust the track width. Taking the car to 6.625 from 6.675 quickened up the entry steering and kept the corner speed pretty good. But it is a narrow oportunity for success. If the track had any more grip, it would traction roll. In fact, I had the bat's 50% forward in a heat with the narrow rear end and it did flip in the first few laps. Moving the bat's to the rear, took just enough of that sensation away. But you will have to tune to your needs. I worked with a lot of different settings to increase the corner speed tonight, including stiffening up the side springs. They only made the car more edgy "throttle on", but it did increase the turn in a little. Those springs were a 22/22. I went back to the 20/22 and it was fine. The big thing tonight was that I was able to get a car back to an 8 minute consistant handling car. The opening few laps were a little harry with all the extra ripp from the fresh bat's, but the car at least stayed the same through out the run.
We are loading up the Rain City squad to head east over the mountains this weekend to go visit Darren Shank and crew over in Tri Cities for the 2nd leg of the PNW Indoor Series. Mike Dumas, Chris Tosolini, Trav Schreven, Peter Robinson, Darrin himself, Me!, Weylin Rose and many others should make up for one of the best 12th scale mod races of the season. We'll have to turn the monkey loose!
Brian; www.slapmastertools.com
